Meal Timing

[Darkmanx]

Yes i am fimiliar with Ramadan and using only muslims in these tests and studies is big variable for me since these guys are use to the Ramadan since they where small. I guess we'll have to see the athletes performances then.

Also at no point did i say the skinny guys and girls in the earlier pictures are weak. I also did mention that i am not bagging IF. Please re read my post for anyone that seems confused. I did say however that IF is not for everyone and if its suppose to be so good then why arent more professional athletes on this method. Yes maybe they keep doing the same thing cause it works but that not raly an excuse. I know this whole thread was about the irrelevancy of meal timing on metabolism but i cant ignore the impact that IF has on the rest of the systems in the body. Thats all. Again, i know it would not be good for me since my body cannot fuction without food for more that 2-3hours.

[Android]

Unfortunately for Moe – Britain’s first Muslim Olympic rower – the Games fall during Ramadan, when Muslims may not eat or drink in daylight hours.

Moe, the son of a Moroccan father and English mother, knew that failing to eat properly would badly affect his performance in the men’s eight, so considered postponing his fast.

But an imam he consulted warned that for each of the 30 days of Ramadan that he transgressed the rules he would incur an entire month of fasting later on. ‘That could have meant years of not eating between sunrise and sunset,’ Moe, 24, told The Mail on Sunday.

Desperate to find another solution, he then heard about Moroccan goalkeeper Badou Zaki, who though a Muslim never fasted during his time at Real Mallorca in Spain’s La Liga. Instead, he would go to Morocco each year to pay for thousands of meals for the poor.

When Malaysian cyclist Azizulhasni Awang opted to postpone his Ramadan fast until after the London Games, the decision was all about going for Olympic gold.

Anything that might jeopardise the chance of a medal for the 24-year-old at his second Olympics had to be dealt with sensibly, he says. And going without food and drink between sunrise and sunset every day for four weeks is just too risky.

"We need to train, we need food, fluids, water," he told Reuters during a training session at a velodrome in Melbourne with team mate Fatehah Mustapa, who will become the first Malaysian woman cyclist to ride at an Olympics.

"We've trained really, really hard ... to strive for the gold medal, so we're not going to waste it. This Olympics is really important for me and Fatehah. You think we're going to sacrifice that?"

While it's no surprise they'll skip fasting, their reasoning is pretty sound and would come from experts in the field of "applied" nutrition and performance science, not from studies alone.

They are saying it would affect their training and performance

I know you guys think you're performing at your peak, reaching great strength goals...but imagine how much stronger you would be if you didn't fast...come on, do you really believe that you are smarter than the Olympic coaches?

You gotta get out of the classroom more often, do field trips and stuff.

Again you appear to be building my argument up to be something its not. I'm not saying you can't get good results on 6 meals a day with a ridiculous amount of protein. What I'm saying is it doesn't matter whether you eat 3 or 6 meals depending on your individual preferences. This is backed up by the inability for any research to categorically show a link between meal frequency and body composition in a context where confounding factors can be excluded from the equation.

Riccardo, what does "This is backed up by the inability for any research to categorically show a link ..." mean?

Are you saying because it hasn't be proved in studies then it can't be true?

Aww man...do you have to wait until studies come out to tell you it's ok to stand up to pee because you're a guy? :shock: the logic is weak with you

While we're spouting anecdotal individuals guys...Ben Rice, natural powerlifter @ 86kg bodyweight deadlifts 672lbs.

Your effort at 10kg heavier and 80lbs less on the bar is "ok" but imagine if you had eaten more frequently like Ben, your performance would be way better, anecdotedly speaking, since you raised the example of yourself.

[Riccardo]

What I mean is that studies have failed to categorically show a link between meal frequency and body composition in the absence of confounding factors at the same time they also show there is NO link. It's quite a clear and logical extrapolation. Further to this studies DO show there is no relationship between meal frequency and metabolic rate. This is what anyone with half a brain cell can logically conclude from the available literature. Simple as that.

Bare in mind that my 270kg was with no equipment whatsoever and with no specific strength training or periodization leading upto the lift, what are you getting at trying to compare me to someone who is a competitive powerlifter, better yet what are you pulling? As someone probably more than 20kg heavier than me, enhanced and a lot more time under the bar. I don't care what you deem to be good or "ok" you are talking about someone who competitively aims to be the best they can in powerlifting its apples and oranges, all I was doing was pointing out you can't say IF will make you small and weak (since someone was asking for anecdotal evidence).

[HarryB]

What I mean is that studies have failed to categorically show a link between meal frequency and body composition in the absence of confounding factors at the same time they also show there is NO link. It's quite a clear and logical extrapolation. Further to this studies DO show there is no relationship between meal frequency and metabolic rate. This is what anyone with half a brain cell can logically conclude from the available literature. Simple as that.

Bare in mind that my 270kg was with no equipment whatsoever and with no specific strength training or periodization leading upto the lift, what are you getting at trying to compare me to someone who is a competitive powerlifter, better yet what are you pulling? As someone probably more than 20kg heavier than me, enhanced and a lot more time under the bar. I don't care what you deem to be good or "ok" you are talking about someone who competitively aims to be the best they can in powerlifting its apples and oranges, all I was doing was pointing out you can't say IF will make you small and weak (since someone was asking for anecdotal evidence).

Don't get angry man... maybe the fasting is making you cranky LOL

You say there's no evidence to support the effectiveness of frequent feeding over IF? Maybe good athletes would be better if they followed the leangains protocols.. Ummmm maybe the leangains guys would be better if they followed similar protocols to 99% of all successful athletes. Hell you might make that 270k dead 300k if you actually put some effort into your deadlifting and ate more frequently.

Isn't the scores of athletes in all sports following a frequent eating meal plan evidence enough? I mean REALLY? That's not enough? You need to see stats and a graph as well? What would you like to see, people getting lean on frequent meals.. (99% of bodybuilders), people getting stronger on frequent eating.. (99% of strength athletes).. performance? Ummmm every other athlete doing every other sport.... Yep I find it interesting that there is even an argument here about what is most effective.

The simple facts are.... if IF was more effective, everyone would do it. Because it MENTALLY suits some people, does not make it physiologically more effective and the proof is...... everywhere you see any elite athlete doing anything. No need to do a google search or whip out the text books just get out and have a look around.

[trainlikeafreak]

What I mean is that studies have failed to categorically show a link between meal frequency and body composition in the absence of confounding factors at the same time they also show there is NO link. It's quite a clear and logical extrapolation. Further to this studies DO show there is no relationship between meal frequency and metabolic rate. This is what anyone with half a brain cell can logically conclude from the available literature. Simple as that.

Bare in mind that my 270kg was with no equipment whatsoever and with no specific strength training or periodization leading upto the lift, what are you getting at trying to compare me to someone who is a competitive powerlifter, better yet what are you pulling? As someone probably more than 20kg heavier than me, enhanced and a lot more time under the bar. I don't care what you deem to be good or "ok" you are talking about someone who competitively aims to be the best they can in powerlifting its apples and oranges, all I was doing was pointing out you can't say IF will make you small and weak (since someone was asking for anecdotal evidence).

Don't get angry man... maybe the fasting is making you cranky LOL

You say there's no evidence to support the effectiveness of frequent feeding over IF? Maybe good athletes would be better if they followed the leangains protocols.. Ummmm maybe the leangains guys would be better if they followed similar protocols to 99% of all successful athletes. Hell you might make that 270k dead 300k if you actually put some effort into your deadlifting and ate more frequently.

Isn't the scores of athletes in all sports following a frequent eating meal plan evidence enough? I mean REALLY? That's not enough? You need to see stats and a graph as well? What would you like to see, people getting lean on frequent meals.. (99% of bodybuilders), people getting stronger on frequent eating.. (99% of strength athletes).. performance? Ummmm every other athlete doing every other sport.... Yep I find it interesting that there is even an argument here about what is most effective.

The simple facts are.... if IF was more effective, everyone would do it. Because it MENTALLY suits some people, does make it physiologically more effective and the proof is...... everywhere you see any elite athlete doing anything. No need to do a google search or whip out the text books just get out and have a look around.

:nod:

[Android]

Sorry Riccardo, it's me again.

So you changed your quote below and added in a pretty strong statement...nice I see what you did there :pfft:

This is backed up by the inability for any research to categorically show a link between meal frequency and body composition in a context where confounding factors can be excluded from the equation.

What I mean is that studies have failed to categorically show a link between meal frequency and body composition in the absence of confounding factors at the same time they also show there is NO link.

This is what anyone with half a brain cell can logically conclude from the available literature. Simple as that.

Just be honest with yourself, if you change the statement say so before implying those that conclude otherwise are dumb.

Dude I have a double major with specialisation in Logic and Computation at Auckland University, some of your logic is basic reductio ad absurdum at it's finest. Hilarious!

Please, please, go and sit in on a 2hr Phil 305 lecture and try and follow the systems of deduction in theoretical form.

[PeterDolan]

Respected minds in this field have stated and proven the importance of leucine for protein synthesis, is this fact not true?

Yip it's true

How does this not enhance the importance of meal timing? From memory, the study done by Dr. Scott Connelly showed that protein synthesis was peaked for an hour after consuming 3g of l-leucine. So, in theory, would this not mean that if this was done 3-4x a day, that muscle gains would in fact be greater than a IF or leangains protocol?

I get that leangains etc has a basis to prove it works (see Serge Nubret for proof that 1 meal a day actually works) but there is compelling evidence that meal timing is important

[greemah]

While it's no surprise they'll skip fasting, their reasoning is pretty sound and would come from experts in the field of "applied" nutrition and performance science, not from studies alone.

They are saying it would affect their training and performance

I know you guys think you're performing at your peak, reaching great strength goals...but imagine how much stronger you would be if you didn't fast...come on, do you really believe that you are smarter than the Olympic coaches?

You gotta get out of the classroom more often, do field trips and stuff.

This is stupid, of course they are going to try get out of having to fast. Why would an Olympic athlete risk implementing some IF protocol without having tried it before, during the Olympics of all times.

Your effort at 10kg heavier and 80lbs less on the bar is "ok" but imagine if you had eaten more frequently like Ben, your performance would be way better, anecdotedly speaking, since you raised the example of yourself.

My lifts are increasing at a rate faster than when I was eating normally, so that's all the evidence I need.

Those of us who are doing IF have also all tried the normal way of eating and prefer IF. Obviously it isn't for some people, but for the ones who think it is inferior it seems you have only tried the normal way of eating and haven't tried IF... maybe try it before you bash?

[Android]

...., but for the ones who think it is inferior it seems you have only tried the normal way of eating and haven't tried IF... maybe try it before you bash?

Yeah it jsut seems to risky :roll:

Still waiting for valid research to come out that says it's superior to my current frequent feeding regime...haven't seen any evidence that says it is better, has anyone?...is all im saying

Why down-grade

[PeterDolan]

...., but for the ones who think it is inferior it seems you have only tried the normal way of eating and haven't tried IF... maybe try it before you bash?

Yeah it jsut seems to risky :roll:

Still waiting for valid research to come out that says it's superior to my current frequent feeding regime...haven't seen any evidence that says it is better, has anyone?...is all im saying

Why down-grade

To be fair Andy, they aren't saying it's superior, they are arguing it is as efficient

[HarryB]

While it's no surprise they'll skip fasting, their reasoning is pretty sound and would come from experts in the field of "applied" nutrition and performance science, not from studies alone.

They are saying it would affect their training and performance

I know you guys think you're performing at your peak, reaching great strength goals...but imagine how much stronger you would be if you didn't fast...come on, do you really believe that you are smarter than the Olympic coaches?

You gotta get out of the classroom more often, do field trips and stuff.

This is stupid, of course they are going to try get out of having to fast. Why would an Olympic athlete risk implementing some IF protocol without having tried it before, during the Olympics of all times.

Your effort at 10kg heavier and 80lbs less on the bar is "ok" but imagine if you had eaten more frequently like Ben, your performance would be way better, anecdotedly speaking, since you raised the example of yourself.

My lifts are increasing at a rate faster than when I was eating normally, so that's all the evidence I need.

Those of us who are doing IF have also all tried the normal way of eating and prefer IF. Obviously it isn't for some people, but for the ones who think it is inferior it seems you have only tried the normal way of eating and haven't tried IF... maybe try it before you bash?

Actually what you are saying is stupid! With all the year round decades worth of research different countries and sports institutes put into nutrition research, don't you think it would have already been implemented if it was effective. It's not even looked at as effective enough to get them to try on their athletes off season...

Of course it works for you, because it suits your psychological needs, is it optimal? Well for something to be effective it has to not only allow you to achieve your goals, it also has to be something you can mentally do.

From what I have read from guys on here about IF, even they don't follow the protocol and are lax on times etc etc etc ..

Loving the debate though.

[Riccardo]

Sorry Riccardo, it's me again.

So you changed your quote below and added in a pretty strong statement...nice I see what you did there :pfft:

This is backed up by the inability for any research to categorically show a link between meal frequency and body composition in a context where confounding factors can be excluded from the equation.

What I mean is that studies have failed to categorically show a link between meal frequency and body composition in the absence of confounding factors at the same time they also show there is NO link.

This is what anyone with half a brain cell can logically conclude from the available literature. Simple as that.

Just be honest with yourself, if you change the statement say so before implying those that conclude otherwise are dumb.

Dude I have a double major with specialisation in Logic and Computation at Auckland University, some of your logic is basic reductio ad absurdum at it's finest. Hilarious!

Please, please, go and sit in on a 2hr Phil 305 lecture and try and follow the systems of deduction in theoretical form.

I changed it because I realized I hadn't made clear what I was trying to say, the literature is there some of it has been posted, if my statement is in-congruent with the research then I will immediately retract it, but it isn't so what I said still stands. Good for you, I have a post graduate degree in biomedical science and a double major in physiology and pharmacology I don't need to go to phil 305 to be able to make logical conclusions from research, It's what I do on a daily basis.

Dude this was a good debate until people start trying to take little digs.

@Harry, I think people are losing sight of what the argument is here. Let me reiterate, no one is saying frequent eating is inferior to IF or vice versa. In fact I have stated many times how I can see some individuals particularly athletes choose to eat frequent meals. I myself do so when it suits me. What I AM saying is that it doesn't matter which method you use in terms of body composition. I really don't see why people have a problem with this? Sure the majority of athletes probably follow a frequent feeding program but this doesn't mean that IF cannot be used to attain the same results depending on the individuals needs. The fact that anecdotal evidence shows more athletes using frequent feeding does not disprove that IF does work. It more reflects the reluctance of change as high level athletes are not likely to change the way they do things out of fear of messing things up however this is slowly changing. IF is a relatively new concept, these things take time to catch on. Hell its not like the majority has never been wrong, people used to think the world was flat. (again I'm not implying frequent meals don't work all I'm saying is that meal frequency is irrelevant to body composition all other things being equal). If it makes it an easier pill to swallow we are not even talking solely about IF but meal frequency in general over a 24 hour period so instead of eating 8 meals a day lets say you eat 6 instead it makes no difference.

Respected minds in this field have stated and proven the importance of leucine for protein synthesis, is this fact not true?

Yip it's true

How does this not enhance the importance of meal timing? From memory, the study done by Dr. Scott Connelly showed that protein synthesis was peaked for an hour after consuming 3g of l-leucine. So, in theory, would this not mean that if this was done 3-4x a day, that muscle gains would in fact be greater than a IF or leangains protocol?

I get that leangains etc has a basis to prove it works (see Serge Nubret for proof that 1 meal a day actually works) but there is compelling evidence that meal timing is important

Yeah protein synthesis peaks but it also becomes refractory meaning that you can't re-stimulate it within a certain time period. This is shown in studies I alluded to earlier where constant infusion of amino acids resulted in no more protein synthesis than 4 separate doses of aminos throughout the day i.e. it doesn't matter how many doses you split the protein up into all that matters is you actually get it in. The compelling evidence you mention has been discussed earlier but most of the correlation can be explained by various confounding factors. Correlation does not equal causation. There is however heavy evidence that meal frequency has no effect on metabolic rate.

[Riccardo]

:nod:

Lol, post of the month (nt srs)

[karm015]

awesome posts riccardo 8)

too bad about the limit on giving out kudos, else i'd give you more. they're well deserved, so far you're one of the few in here who isn't frustratingly narrow minded and prone to relying on ad hominem rather than solid evidence

[Pseudonym]

i think riccardo def deserves the mvm tag :nod:

brilliant posts! :clap:

The mods agreed. Not just for this topic, but for all his other posts as well. Thanks, Riccardo!

[Android]

Welcome to the club of awesomeness Riccardo :clap:

We're meeting at the same place this week so bring your Toga, Sandals, and Weight Belt bro...big night!

[Riccardo]

Oh haha just realized, thanks! Sweet I'll bring the food, don't wanna miss meal 16 ;p

[greemah]

Android I won't bother replying to your post as Riccardo pretty much just said what I would have typed lol (minus the scientific stuff).

I did switch to IF because the thought of eating larger meals was more appealing to me than eating lots of smaller meals as I was always hungry then, even on same calorie intake.

Though most people are arguing that IF works just as well, personally I think it works better (for me at least) as I tested it with the exact same calorie/macro intake and got much better and faster results on IF. And I used to be a strict dieter when on normal eating habits. Unfortunately I don't have any studies to show as I haven't searched and don't know if it has really even been studied, but just experimenting on myself. I was really worried about it when I first switched to IF thinking it wouldn't work or I would be hungry or lose muscle, but forced myself to try it and now I could never go back. That's why I think others should give it a decent go, I mean what's the worst that can happen how much muscle could you lose in a month especially if eating the same calories/macros

[Android]

Oh haha just realized, thanks! Sweet I'll bring the food, don't wanna miss meal 16 ;p

Well it's hard to define "meal"...we just consume contiuous supplies of protein meal through IV drips. You'll get used it...protein heaven!

No worries Greemah. I'm in the same situation with frequent feeding.

If I do GVT on Legs and even miss a single protein meal for the next 48hrs or so I get the most wicked DOMS that last up to a week (even squatting down with no weight is near impossible). This prevents Back training, Hammy training etc in the week.

I realised this during my time at Uni. Training and then missing a meal due to lectures made the DOMS worse. What elleviated this was Glutamine supplementation though, or never skipping a protein meal.

But if I have a recovery meal before the session, and then plenty afterwards it's pulled back to a dull pain that lasts a few days enabling me to recover faster.

I do however, train to failure and beyond some times...and this effect is as a natty and as enhanced, doesn't matter I've put on 26kg natty and 26kg enhanced since I was 28 so am pretty confident I know the effects both ways by now as an adult male that isn't swimming in natural levels of GH and Test and could gain and look lean on loaves of bread if they wanted...fuckers).

Those that are just natty are guessing what it's like to be enhanced.

It's not some sort of elixer that lets you train and not eat properly by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes you are stronger and yes you can push more weight and squeeze muscles tighter so you can place more stress on your muscles. But therefore you have to eat more and better to recover for the best results.

In my experience

[Phedder]

Just saw this vid for the first time, good general overview of the IF protocol, and the last 25 seconds or so sums up this thread perfectly :pfft:

[jimmybro1]

Fasting....