does any one really know?

[mrgeeky]

regarding comming off TRT I keep hearing conflicting advice.

I was always of the understanding that it was for life.. Once on, you have to stay on as after X amount of time (different time frame for different people) you will be shut down for life.

I was of the understanding that bodybuilders on test will stop a cycle/cruise after 4 months first time around.

Possibly 6 months second time around just to see how far out they can push their cycles before being shut down permanently from producing their own test.

But then I hear of people who have been on TRT for years talking about coming off it.

Whats the go.. Is it just more risky for bodybuilders due to the large amount of test they use compared to oldies just needing a top up?

How long can some one stay on TRT for before deciding to come off it? Is it possible to come off TRT after 5 years as an example or would that be way too late?

It seems even the doctors have different opinions. One doctor told me once on, your on for life. Another doc tells me thats rubbish and you just need to kick start your own test after years.

Does any one actually know for sure?

[Android]

regarding comming off TRT I keep hearing conflicting advice.

I was always of the understanding that it was for life.. Once on, you have to stay on as after X amount of time (different time frame for different people) you will be shut down for life.

I was of the understanding that bodybuilders on test will stop a cycle/cruise after 4 months first time around.

Possibly 6 months second time around just to see how far out they can push their cycles before being shut down permanently from producing their own test.

But then I hear of people who have been on TRT for years talking about coming off it.

Whats the go.. Is it just more risky for bodybuilders due to the large amount of test they use compared to oldies just needing a top up?

How long can some one stay on TRT for before deciding to come off it? Is it possible to come off TRT after 5 years as an example or would that be way too late?

It seems even the doctors have different opinions. One doctor told me once on, your on for life. Another doc tells me thats rubbish and you just need to kick start your own test after years.

Does any one actually know for sure?

Who said it shuts down for life after a 6mth cycle?

The body will always try and bounce back, the level it gets abck to depends on you, what ou did, how long for, and factors beyond the knowledge of anyone tbh.

There's a risk it might shut down permanently, that's always there but you don't know where that point is.

It's safe to say no-one knows YOUR reaction to it, they don't know how your body responds. Some guys on here have been on for years taking more than HRT levels and it bounces back.

It's a risk that it doesn't, it doesn't mean it will and it doesn't mean it won't.

If anyone tells you a definitive answer either way they're having you on.

[mrgeeky]

regarding comming off TRT I keep hearing conflicting advice.

I was always of the understanding that it was for life.. Once on, you have to stay on as after X amount of time (different time frame for different people) you will be shut down for life.

I was of the understanding that bodybuilders on test will stop a cycle/cruise after 4 months first time around.

Possibly 6 months second time around just to see how far out they can push their cycles before being shut down permanently from producing their own test.

But then I hear of people who have been on TRT for years talking about coming off it.

Whats the go.. Is it just more risky for bodybuilders due to the large amount of test they use compared to oldies just needing a top up?

How long can some one stay on TRT for before deciding to come off it? Is it possible to come off TRT after 5 years as an example or would that be way too late?

It seems even the doctors have different opinions. One doctor told me once on, your on for life. Another doc tells me thats rubbish and you just need to kick start your own test after years.

Does any one actually know for sure?

Who said it shuts down for life after a 6mth cycle?

The body will always try and bounce back, the level it gets abck to depends on you, what ou did, how long for, and factors beyond the knowledge of anyone tbh.

There's a risk it might shut down permanently, that's always there but you don't know where that point is.

It's safe to say no-one knows YOUR reaction to it, they don't know how your body responds. Some guys on here have been on for years taking more than HRT levels and it bounces back.

It's a risk that it doesn't, it doesn't mean it will and it doesn't mean it won't.

If anyone tells you a definitive answer either way they're having you on.

cheers android, I hve read andheard so many conflicting opinions on this its hard to nut out the reality.. So I could possibly be quite safe to stay on trt for a couple of years then come off it?

The reason Im trying to nut this out is I dont want to stay on for life.

Im trying to work out how long I can stay on TRT for before needing a break (PCT)

Im not 100% convinced yet that I need to be on TRT is one of my issues.

I think only by comming off and having a play around with some other factors in my life is the only way Im going to know. But while on TRT Im actually enjoying the benifits of it so am in no hurry to come off lol

Hope that all makes sense.

.

[Android]

There will be conflicting stories because every person has just their own experience and maybe a few friends to come to a conclusion on.

Talk to an endocrine specialist, if they don't think you should be on it take their advice, come off the gear, and look at factors in your life as you mentioned.

The fact that you enjoy it is why so many people stay on it though :-)

There is a supplement that a regular BB competitor and gear-taker used to come off cycle with last month, that within 4 weeks had his natural levels back to normal with blood tests confirming that, and he felt it working.

I don't know or care if it's allowed in NZ but he brought it online and it comes under the name Hi-Tech Anavar (but it isn't Anavar). I've seen the guy train during the off-cycle period and am personally going to add this to my PCT. It's no good while u r on gear, but buy it, get off the gear, and c what you think is my 2c

http://www.i-supplements.com/anavar.html

[Diab0lic]

There is a supplement that a regular BB competitor and gear-taker used to come off cycle with last month, that within 4 weeks had his natural levels back to normal with blood tests confirming that, and he felt it working.

I don't know or care if it's allowed in NZ but he brought it online and it comes under the name Hi-Tech Anavar (but it isn't Anavar). I've seen the guy train during the off-cycle period and am personally going to add this to my PCT. It's no good while u r on gear, but buy it, get off the gear, and c what you think is my 2c

http://www.i-supplements.com/anavar.html

It has DHEA in it so you are probably not allowed to import in to NZ. None of the ingredients I can see have been proven to raise testosterone levels in humans that I know of but it could possibly help you train harder which would help get your levels up. The guy you speak of may be a fast recoverer naturally but that is still interesting. When you say he used it to "come off", do you mean instead of regular nolva/clomid pct?

[Android]

There is a supplement that a regular BB competitor and gear-taker used to come off cycle with last month, that within 4 weeks had his natural levels back to normal with blood tests confirming that, and he felt it working.

I don't know or care if it's allowed in NZ but he brought it online and it comes under the name Hi-Tech Anavar (but it isn't Anavar). I've seen the guy train during the off-cycle period and am personally going to add this to my PCT. It's no good while u r on gear, but buy it, get off the gear, and c what you think is my 2c

http://www.i-supplements.com/anavar.html

It has DHEA in it so you are probably not allowed to import in to NZ. None of the ingredients I can see have been proven to raise testosterone levels in humans that I know of but it could possibly help you train harder which would help get your levels up. The guy you speak of may be a fast recoverer naturally but that is still interesting. When you say he used it to "come off", do you mean instead of regular nolva/clomid pct?

He used Nolvadex but the recovery was so quick. Yep I use DHEA but just on it's own every single PCT, it's always the best off-cycle experience. Are you sure it's got DHEA in it? You're not mistaking Keto-7 DHEA which is legal to bring in, you can even buy it in NZ if you want...I haven't seen the ingredients but it gets through Customs (or it did until they read this LOL)

The same has been found with Kai Greene's Arimidex, superb off cycle experience (with Nolvadex or course).

Intredasting

[Diab0lic]

There is a supplement that a regular BB competitor and gear-taker used to come off cycle with last month, that within 4 weeks had his natural levels back to normal with blood tests confirming that, and he felt it working.

I don't know or care if it's allowed in NZ but he brought it online and it comes under the name Hi-Tech Anavar (but it isn't Anavar). I've seen the guy train during the off-cycle period and am personally going to add this to my PCT. It's no good while u r on gear, but buy it, get off the gear, and c what you think is my 2c

http://www.i-supplements.com/anavar.html

It has DHEA in it so you are probably not allowed to import in to NZ. None of the ingredients I can see have been proven to raise testosterone levels in humans that I know of but it could possibly help you train harder which would help get your levels up. The guy you speak of may be a fast recoverer naturally but that is still interesting. When you say he used it to "come off", do you mean instead of regular nolva/clomid pct?

He used Nolvadex but the recovery was so quick. Yep I use DHEA but just on it's own every single PCT, it's always the best off-cycle experience. Are you sure it's got DHEA in it? You're not mistaking Keto-7 DHEA which is legal to bring in, you can even buy it in NZ if you want...I haven't seen the ingredients but it gets through Customs (or it did until they read this LOL)

The same has been found with Kai Greene's Arimidex, superb off cycle experience (with Nolvadex or course).

Intredasting

Dehydroepiandrosterone Enanthate is one of the ingredients. I though that oral DHEA wasn't found to raise free T levels. There are quite a few studies purporting that at least...

[Android]

Gotta love Placebo effects then!

I swear by 100mg DHEA a day regardless of the facts. Might just buy a cheap bottle of ZMA and draw DHEA on the lidand see what happens this time. :pfft:

cheers

[Chemo]

regarding comming off TRT I keep hearing conflicting advice.

I was always of the understanding that it was for life.. Once on, you have to stay on as after X amount of time (different time frame for different people) you will be shut down for life.

I was of the understanding that bodybuilders on test will stop a cycle/cruise after 4 months first time around.

Possibly 6 months second time around just to see how far out they can push their cycles before being shut down permanently from producing their own test.

But then I hear of people who have been on TRT for years talking about coming off it.

Whats the go.. Is it just more risky for bodybuilders due to the large amount of test they use compared to oldies just needing a top up?

How long can some one stay on TRT for before deciding to come off it? Is it possible to come off TRT after 5 years as an example or would that be way too late?

It seems even the doctors have different opinions. One doctor told me once on, your on for life. Another doc tells me thats rubbish and you just need to kick start your own test after years.

Does any one actually know for sure?

I think your natural production will come back mate (not sure about 5 years on tho lol), at what level, depends I guess.

My take is that if you've identified the need for TRT and that your natural production is lacking, so when your natural production kicks back in it will be very low. Why not take advantage of you options, and stay on TRT and push it up to a higher level. 200-250mg/week.

I'm sure you'd feel amazing, see a lot of youthful effects and dodge a lot of health issues associated with low testosterone.

Regarding the Clomid idea too,

Clomid can raise test (I think about 150%?) and does spark a stimulus for you testies to produce test, but its not that much, and you couldn't keep that up for long. a better option would be to stay on the pills and or an injectable version.

My 2c: Take the prescription and take advantage of high testosterone for your age :grin:

[Pseudonym]

This may be a dumb question, but if it's not, then it may affect MrGeeky's decision...

Can you still father kids on TRT? Or is even that level enough to act as a contraceptive? And if so, does your fertility bounce back as readily as your testosterone levels?

[mrgeeky]

This may be a dumb question, but if it's not, then it may affect MrGeeky's decision...

Can you still father kids on TRT? Or is even that level enough to act as a contraceptive? And if so, does your fertility bounce back as readily as your testosterone levels?

a younger person could get away with it..

At my age.. TRT would kill off any chance of having sprogs..

I got one kid, at my age it's all to hard. I dont want anymore so thats if anything being on TRT would be of benefit in that area.. :-)

[mrgeeky]

edited because it was full of bull dust!

[snoopy]

For the rat with the dumbell:

Deca durabolin is used as a contraceptive, but it really is down to you personally.

Some people can father children on 2000mg test a week and not have any adverse effect, others balls pack their bags at 200mg a week.

Cycle periods I've seen include:

3 weeks on 6 months off

8 weeks on 8 weeks off

12 weeks on rest of the year off

6 months on 6 months off

The BEST you can do from experience is 4 weeks on, 8 weeks off. But this may be a personal thing, it increases strength really quick because too much test saturation decreases movement in the calcium channels and floods the muscle with water making them less elastic and you can lose up to 25% of power, thats why in powerlifting you use orals and quick acting esters, and oils in the off season.

And to clarify, no, just because your on dosn't mean your on for life.

I would forget the TRT for now and just go with HCG possibly, but MuscleNZ would be the one to ask about this?

[mrgeeky]

For the rat with the dumbell:

Deca durabolin is used as a contraceptive, but it really is down to you personally.

Some people can father children on 2000mg test a week and not have any adverse effect, others balls pack their bags at 200mg a week.

Cycle periods I've seen include:

3 weeks on 6 months off

8 weeks on 8 weeks off

12 weeks on rest of the year off

6 months on 6 months off

The BEST you can do from experience is 4 weeks on, 8 weeks off. But this may be a personal thing, it increases strength really quick because too much test saturation decreases movement in the calcium channels and floods the muscle with water making them less elastic and you can lose up to 25% of power, thats why in powerlifting you use orals and quick acting esters, and oils in the off season.

And to clarify, no, just because your on dosn't mean your on for life.

I would forget the TRT for now and just go with HCG possibly, but MuscleNZ would be the one to ask about this?

Been on Testosterone replacement therapy now for about 6 months..

Im thinking of giving it another two or three months then I'll look at clomid and HCG.

I now feel like an idiot.. I hve been discussing this topic with others and kept calling HCG, HGH..

I hve just realised my mistake. *face palm* lol

[mrgeeky]

bah, who am I kidding..

I felt like shit when I wasnt on.. Used to sit on the couch all day.

I need TRT...

I just cant get the concept of having to rely on it for the rest of my life inbedded in to my brain..

I might have felt like shit when I wasnt on but I kind of think being dependant on something for life is almost as bad.. Thats the truth behind it.

Its why I want to do PCT once in a blue moon.. :?

[Growth]

I'm pretty sure if you have gone through the correct channels, seen a GP / doctor / endo, had all the proper testing over time, tried their pre-TRT suggestions, and finally been told that you need TRT, that it is for life.

Essentially they are telling you that your natural testosterone product has fallen so low, that basically your no longer enjoying the benefits of a healthy testosterone level, ergo you will need to supply exogenous testosterone so that you can get within the normal range again.

I don't know of anyone who has had a proper diagnosis, and magically been able to stop TRT after X many years.

Don't feel bad about it, it's not like your a drug addict relying on a hit to get by. You have had a medical diagnosis, and to maintain that healthy state of mind, you need to manually supply your body with something it can no longer produce by itself.

[train hard]

are you not like over 50 years old? stay on HRT doses for the rest of your life and sail into the sunset a happy man

[Android]

bah, who am I kidding..

I felt like shit when I wasnt on.. Used to sit on the couch all day.

I need TRT...

I just cant get the concept of having to rely on it for the rest of my life inbedded in to my brain..

I might have felt like shit when I wasnt on but I kind of think being dependant on something for life is almost as bad.. Thats the truth behind it.

Its why I want to do PCT once in a blue moon.. :?

What Growth said is bang on the money, re-read his post mate.

Would you be thinking like this is if your body wasn't producing it's own insulin, does it take the threat of death to convince you that you body has retired from producing a hormone?

Assuming you have changed your lifestyle, no drinking alcohol, limiting stress, getting adequate sleep, exercising with resistance training regularly, not drinking loads of coffee, eating nutritious foods, don't live under power lines, all other blood results are normal (i.e. not suffering from Zinc or Iron deficiency), have tried Test-boosting supplements like Tribulus, ZMA, Macca, Horny Goat Weed etc....and like Growth said the experts say your system needs exogenous Test...then accept that.

If none or some of the above is not true, then you haven't tried everything to give your body a chance to produce it's own and explains to me the real reason behind any indecision in your head.

Session over, you may leave the room :pfft:

[Chemo]

bah, who am I kidding..

I felt like shit when I wasnt on.. Used to sit on the couch all day.

I need TRT...

I just cant get the concept of having to rely on it for the rest of my life inbedded in to my brain..

I might have felt like shit when I wasnt on but I kind of think being dependant on something for life is almost as bad.. Thats the truth behind it.

Its why I want to do PCT once in a blue moon.. :?

You could easily survive without it yo. So you are not dependant on it.

But as you've said, your much happier on it, think of it as life enhancing rather than a necessity, and something that you control.

[mrgeeky]

yes but I only control it if I can stop it when I want too.. PCT..

I cant help but think if Im take a break once a year or so, then I really am under control.

The idea of having to rely on something for the rest of my life if I dont have to just seems so foreign to me. I cant see it being wise. If I had no choice, then fair enough. But at this stage, I still have a choice.

I think PCT once a year or so would be a wise move on my part.

[mrgeeky]

bah, who am I kidding..

I felt like shit when I wasnt on.. Used to sit on the couch all day.

I need TRT...

I just cant get the concept of having to rely on it for the rest of my life inbedded in to my brain..

I might have felt like shit when I wasnt on but I kind of think being dependant on something for life is almost as bad.. Thats the truth behind it.

Its why I want to do PCT once in a blue moon.. :?

What Growth said is bang on the money, re-read his post mate.

Would you be thinking like this is if your body wasn't producing it's own insulin, does it take the threat of death to convince you that you body has retired from producing a hormone?

Assuming you have changed your lifestyle, no drinking alcohol, limiting stress, getting adequate sleep, exercising with resistance training regularly, not drinking loads of coffee, eating nutritious foods, don't live under power lines, all other blood results are normal (i.e. not suffering from Zinc or Iron deficiency), have tried Test-boosting supplements like Tribulus, ZMA, Macca, Horny Goat Weed etc....and like Growth said the experts say your system needs exogenous Test...then accept that.

If none or some of the above is not true, then you haven't tried everything to give your body a chance to produce it's own and explains to me the real reason behind any indecision in your head.

Session over, you may leave the room :pfft:

checking out your post I havent done all I can to be sure its test thats the problem. My level was 13 nmol/L

My doc thinks that wasnt the problem though. He thinks my test isnt doing its job properly. Not working properly.

I know there were days when and especally after a good night sleep I felt like a million dollars. A fluctation in the way my testosterone was working?

But you are correct in I have explored all the avenues outlined above.

I dont drink. I have no stress. I dont smoke. dont live under power lines or anything like that.

Diet is a hard one. I have always carried excess weight and if I so much as look at a peice of choclate I put on a kg. Also the fact I always feel like shit makes me eat a little too well.. Hard to get diet right when you dont feel right. Although my diet is not too bad.

I havent been tested for mineral deficiency and I havent tried Test-boosting supplements.

[Diab0lic]

yes but I only control it if I can stop it when I want too.. PCT..

I cant help but think if Im take a break once a year or so, then I really am under control.

The idea of having to rely on something for the rest of my life if I dont have to just seems so foreign to me. I cant see it being wise. If I had no choice, then fair enough. But at this stage, I still have a choice.

I think PCT once a year or so would be a wise move on my part.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle bro. You should look at it as in you ARE taking control by using TRT. You have naturally low testosterone levels which, as you say, makes you feel like crap and sit on the couch all day. By using a proven and safe method such as physician supervised HRT, you have taken control of the situation and will now feel (and look) better off for it.

It's not mind altering (in the traditional sense anyway), it's not harming you, it's not illegal and it is providing you with both tangible and intangible benefits that far outweigh the risks.

You say the idea of relying on something seems foreign, but you were previously relying on your own physiology to keep your testosterone levels up in an acceptable range which it seems to have failed in doing. You're just restoring balance.

And it is something you can come off if you really wanted or had to, but if you do you will almost certainly feel like crap again, and since you want your test levels to be in the normal range, you will actually be out of control as they won't be. If sitting on the couch eating timtams and tearing up to Jennifer Aniston movies is your thing though then go ahead and "take control"

[Diab0lic]

yes but I only control it if I can stop it when I want too.. PCT..

I cant help but think if Im take a break once a year or so, then I really am under control.

The idea of having to rely on something for the rest of my life if I dont have to just seems so foreign to me. I cant see it being wise. If I had no choice, then fair enough. But at this stage, I still have a choice.

I think PCT once a year or so would be a wise move on my part.

I think you're look ing at it from the wrong angle bro. You should look at it as in you ARE taking control by using TRT. You have naturally low testosterone levels which, as you say, makes you feel like crap and sit on the couch all day. By using a proven and safe method such as physician supervised HRT, you have taken control of the situation and will now feel (and look) better off for it.

It's not mind altering (in the traditional sense anyway), it's not harming you, it's not illegal and it is providing you with both tangible and intangible benefits that far outweight the risks.

You say the idea of relying on something seems foreign, but you were previously relying on your own physiology to keep your testosterone levels up in an acceptable range which it seems to have failed in doing. You're just restoring balance.

And it is something you can come off if you really wanted or had to, but if you do you will almost certainly feel like crap again, and since you want your test levels to be in the normal range, you will actually be out of control as they won't be. If sitting on the couch eating timtams and tearing up to Jennifer Aniston movies is your thing though then go ahead and "take control"

[Android]

yes but I only control it if I can stop it when I want too.. PCT..

I cant help but think if Im take a break once a year or so, then I really am under control.

The idea of having to rely on something for the rest of my life if I dont have to just seems so foreign to me. I cant see it being wise. If I had no choice, then fair enough. But at this stage, I still have a choice.

I think PCT once a year or so would be a wise move on my part.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle bro. You should look at it as in you ARE taking control by using TRT. You have naturally low testosterone levels which, as you say, makes you feel like crap and sit on the couch all day. By using a proven and safe method such as physician supervised HRT, you have taken control of the situation and will now feel (and look) better off for it.

It's not mind altering (in the traditional sense anyway), it's not harming you, it's not illegal and it is providing you with both tangible and intangible benefits that far outweigh the risks.

You say the idea of relying on something seems foreign, but you were previously relying on your own physiology to keep your testosterone levels up in an acceptable range which it seems to have failed in doing. You're just restoring balance.

And it is something you can come off if you really wanted or had to, but if you do you will almost certainly feel like crap again, and since you want your test levels to be in the normal range, you will actually be out of control as they won't be. If sitting on the couch eating timtams and tearing up to Jennifer Aniston movies is your thing though then go ahead and "take control"

A good point in here.

If you can't come off today cos you feel like shit, how are you going to come off after being on for a year...PCT doesn't make the "feeling like shit" go completely away. Some is estrogen control and some works to restroe your natty levels. Expect 4-8 weeks of feeling low during your PCT mate.

So if you can't do it today, if you can't stop today and go on PCT, how will you do it in 6mths time?

And eating like crap sometimes...will make you feel like crap which you said in turn makes you eat more crap. I see a pattern forming here :-)

No hate, just observations from afar

[mrgeeky]

yes but I only control it if I can stop it when I want too.. PCT..

I cant help but think if Im take a break once a year or so, then I really am under control.

The idea of having to rely on something for the rest of my life if I dont have to just seems so foreign to me. I cant see it being wise. If I had no choice, then fair enough. But at this stage, I still have a choice.

I think PCT once a year or so would be a wise move on my part.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle bro. You should look at it as in you ARE taking control by using TRT. You have naturally low testosterone levels which, as you say, makes you feel like crap and sit on the couch all day. By using a proven and safe method such as physician supervised HRT, you have taken control of the situation and will now feel (and look) better off for it.

It's not mind altering (in the traditional sense anyway), it's not harming you, it's not illegal and it is providing you with both tangible and intangible benefits that far outweigh the risks.

You say the idea of relying on something seems foreign, but you were previously relying on your own physiology to keep your testosterone levels up in an acceptable range which it seems to have failed in doing. You're just restoring balance.

And it is something you can come off if you really wanted or had to, but if you do you will almost certainly feel like crap again, and since you want your test levels to be in the normal range, you will actually be out of control as they won't be. If sitting on the couch eating timtams and tearing up to Jennifer Aniston movies is your thing though then go ahead and "take control"

heh heh, I love the way you put that.. And well said..

My point though was, its easy to live for the now.. But who knows wht the future will bring.

I can forsee a time when NZ goes bust and we will all have to pay for our prescriptions.. Would I be able to afford to pay for Test supplements then?

I was speaking to my doctor about this topic and he said patients have died from being in an accident and going to hospital but the staff dont realise they were on meds for life.. He said people have died because of this.

Only using those as an examples of course your unlikely to die for lack of testosterone.. .

And I wasnt suggesting going off long term, only for a couple of months at most. Get pct out of the road and then off on another long cycle.

Well those were my thoughts anyway... I would have thought my idea was a really good one.. Im confused at the resistance to my idea.