NZFBB killing the future of bodybuilding

[poos_n_wees]

Cornfed...?

The idea that people maybe competing at the NATIONALS just for fun and pleasure and therefore should not have to face steroid taking athletes who wish to be professionals is absurd. The National Championships should be for the best of the best who wish to either gain pro status or represent New Zealand. A National Championship for any sport is not the place of a weekend warrior, this is supposed to be a time for the elite athletes to battle it out. However because the drug testing regime is in place the elite athletes are not there, well not a significant quantity anyway.

While I agree with you on some points, the Nationals should definitely NOT be limited to those wanting pro status. NZ's too small for that, and while we do have a lot of talent here, I think the sports still relatively young and given time -- with more and more athletes starting to get into the sport and getting 'educated', then maybe in the future the NZFBB could look into what you're talkin bout.

[waldo]

Crikey! Producing a pro that places in the top 5 of a show? Moe managed 14th in his first pro show. Are you saying we should be producing a Phil Heath every year or so? I don't think we have the labs to do that do we?!

If there was an average of around 10 pro shows per year for the last 5 years that would be 250 opportunities for a New Zealander to place in the top of a professional contest. Moe got 14th in his first pro show, however Moe did not recieve his pro card from New Zealand and the NZFBB did not develop him as a bodybuilder. Moe's development took place long before he stepped into this country. Moe is a great guy and great bodybuilder, he is not New Zealands to claim though.

Theortically if an athlete is at a level to recieve their pro card and they do so in 2008, in 2010 should be their first contest, one would not expect a top 5 placing here. However by gradually increasing development every year the athlete should be able to gradually make their way up the placings.

In regards to a commment about having the labs, no of course there are not in New Zealand. If one looks for a development program on the NZFBB website they will not find one. Having some labs would certainly come after the NZFBB having a clear athlete development stratergy. This stratergy would need to show a plan for developing athletes from the point of recognizing a genetically gifted individual in the gym all the way through to the attainment of a pro card, if the federation wishes to there could even be additional support for the athelete once in the pro ranks.

I never said Moe was developed in NZ, I used it as an example.

You sound like you have a good long term view of things, why not get up at a meeting of the NZFBB and sound your platform?

As an addend to this, I have spoken to two Aussie Pros before, Luke Wood and Neil Gardner. Admittedly Luke is a far better BB than Neil too. But both have talked of their experiences to me.

The Aussie IFBB doesn't have the sort of development program you speak of, in fact Luke's sponsors at the time had to fund him to the IFBB worlds before he turned pro. Once he did go pro, he did everything off his own back, including funding his BB in the USA by personal training and thru sponsorship.

What I'm getting at is I think you'll find most countries outside the States don't have the development program you speak of, nor do they 'assist' in lab programs being suggested. As Moe found out, a positive drugs test will bar you from turning Pro for two years. Once you get that Pro card, it's up to you to develop your body further, as you mentioned. I would thing, based on that, that NZ does in fact have the potential to get athletes to that level. At this year's Nationals, there were up to five guys that could go to the next level.

I think we may be making the mistake that everone ultimately wants a Pro card. This is not the case in Bodybuilding, nor is it in all sports.

[Jazz]

The prevailing argument about not every competitior wanting to be a pro is very much true, these athletes should be catered to. There are enough competitors who have the desire to be a pro to make it worthwhile to develop a plan to assit them in these quests. There are also enough competitiors who wish to represent New Zealand, once again these competitiors should also be catered to and assited.

By restructuring the NZFBB all these competitors can be catered to. The new model I propose would be framed around local and regional contests plus one national event. Local contests would offer an opportunity to those athletes interested in the sport and who wish to have a goal for their training. Regional contests would be for those that wish to have a very competitive experience against experienced bodybuilders, they would also be qualifiers for the national event. The national event would be more of a World Championship and Pro qualifier.

The local associations would be responsible for promoting the sport of bodybuilding in general. This would include promoting the sport in the local media and local community events. They would also be responsible for monitoring gyms in their area for potential competitors. The local contests would be drug tested, the focus here is on novice athletes who have an interest in bodybuilding and are competing for the fun of it.

The regional level would be responsible for developing their athletes that wish to compete at the national level, they do this by creating a team system. The development should be to the level sufficient for a national level competitor. All athletes in the team will be given access to the team trainer, nutritionist, physio etc.

The national level (the NZFBB) would be responsible for developing those chosen to represent New Zealand at international events. This would include assisting in the search for sponsors and other support required for international athletes such as the drug testing prior to competing at a world event.

The mention of Australia not having a development program for bodybuilders is true, they do however have a very elaborate development program for almost every other sport other than bodybuilding. That is why they succed at almost every sport other than bodybuilding

[Pseudonym]

Awesome debating - thankyou Jazz! Welcome to the forums, and hopefully you'll stick around to discuss other topics as well.

While I'm not yet sold on your drug-testing philosphy, I do like the tiered system of increasing support you've suggested. Any idea how much it would cost though? I'm sure it wouldn't be cheap, so how would you fund that?

[Jazz]

Unfortunately I do not have sufficent resources to give an accurate costing of this model. A funding system for this structure is quite simple to come up with, exact dollar figures are not so easy.

Local Bodybuilding Association- Primary funding would be by way of sponsorship from local businesses and pub charaties. The idea sponsorship partners would be busineeses that can offer all of the local members a discount.Examples, Geoffs Gym, Steves Supplements and Barry the Butcher. Businesses like these also provide good non-financial support also, examples; nutrition seminars at the supplement store and posing seminars at the gym. There would also be secondary funding from the one or two local shows that they run, membership subscriptions and also the NZFBB may also provide limited support. NZFBB support would be more likely to be along the lines of a commission dependant on the amount of new member joined up by that local association. Small level fundraisers could also be utilized, for example raffles.

The regional level would be funded through the NZFBB and once again pub charities. The regional show should also be able to supply a reasonable amount of funding to the regional association. Once again sponsorship would also play a part as well, some of the more profitable local business may wish to support but also the NZFBB’s sponsors should contribute to the regional level. The major need for funding is mainly to fund the cost of the team “experts”; the trainer etc, the hope would be however that these people would work for a slightly reduced rate in return for the guaranteed contracts of at least 6 athletes.

The national federation would be funded through member subscriptions collected by the local association and also sponsors. The sponsors for the national federation would preferably be businesses that operate throughout the country to allow freedom to move the event around the country and also to increase the chances of the local and regional associations receiving sponsorships from these companies.

This is just a starting point for a funding structure, there are many ways it could be amended, most of them probably for the better.

[waldo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pub Charities (lion foundation, trilian trust etc) won't donate to sports that have no testing structure?

Jaz, I don't know who you are, but you should be up and talking about this at the next NZFBB meeting. You sound like you have the foresight and ability to see something implemented. You SHOULD make yourself known and heard.

[2guns]

Jaz, I don't know who you are, but you should be up and talking about this at the next NZFBB meeting. You sound like you have the foresight and ability to see something implemented. You SHOULD make yourself known and heard.

I AGREE!!!

[Jazz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pub Charities (lion foundation, trilian trust etc) won't donate to sports that have no testing structure?

I am not sure if you are correct, certainly not saying you are wrong as I am not sure on the exact criteria for their funding. However, if it was their policy that a sport that does not have a testing structure in place does not receive funding that would rule out the NZFBB, even with their current testing regime. This would be because the NABBA federation who is also part of the sport does not test either. If it is true though, that they won’t donate if there is no testing there could be a way around it. Under my proposed system the local shows would be tested so maybe they could give funding only for the local shows. They could also though give individual funding to the athletes who wish to go to the World Champs, this is because these athletes need to have passed a drug test before they go. Also community trusts may donate to the local shows as they would be intended to be community events. As long as the focus of this local tier is based around “come give it a go” and “fun for the whole family” type concepts there would not be too many questions asked about drug testing as the events should not attract drugged up looking athletes. Another reason too many question would not be asked as the money requested at this level would not be a large amount in the grand scheme of things for the trust. The local show organisers could even ask for this money so they can do some drug testing.

[Jazz]

There are much more ideas and concepts that have to be developed before this could even be discussed at an NZFBB meeting.

Noone has picked up on my point about ticket prices. In my model the price of tickets needs to be regulated through out the various tiers. As stated earlier the price of tickets for the Nationals this year were excessive. A price ceiling would have to imposed on the shows at each tier to ensure a resonable demand. To encouraging spectators to get along to the show the price of tickets must represent what the audience is viewing. There of course could be provisions in extreme circumstance, for example guest posing by an IFBB pro.

The issue of talent identification needs work also. An accreditation process would need to be put into place to ensure that those who are scouting for potential athletes (preferably elite ones) know what to exactly to look for, and have the eye to make sure judgements.

Also the process to then decide what training and nutrition principles will be applied to high performance athletes needs to take place. This process would be one of the most difficult to conduct as there is more than one way to bake a cake and a lot of people are very entrenched with their views. It is a very important process but rather controversial for a body building federation to give indication that one method is superior.

[2guns]

Noone has picked up on my point about ticket prices.

people probably thought about it, but just didnt post anything, like me.

but you will find this with most things, e.g allblacks at eden park is more expenisive than an auckland air nz cup or blues game at eden park.

there are lots more examples.

The issue of talent identification needs work also.

isnt this what supplement companys do? if they thinki u have potential they will approach u with a sponsership deal or what ever they are offerring, im just asking as not sure how this works...

Also the process to then decide what training and nutrition principles will be applied to high performance athletes needs to take place.

alot of bodybuilders find a nutritionalist to do ther diet and stick with their advice for everything concerning their diet if they are dead serious, and after years of a competitor seeing the same person they get to know wat works for them. sometimes this can take many shows.

bodybuilding is still an individual sport, and although i think your ideas could be helpful to nz bodybuilding, i can see them happening anytime soon.

[Andrew]

By drug testing it allows for a prevalence of physiques that are not world class

They could also though give individual funding to the athletes who wish to go to the World Champs, this is because these athletes need to have passed a drug test before they go

Forgive me if I’m wrong here but don’t these kind of contradict each other?

[waldo]

I'm starting to think all of this would cost a serious amount of dollars and require a lot of prople-hours. We already know that the current exec does this of their own time and money, just like most minority sports in NZ. To propose all of this would be a little out of reach.

In fact I'm consigning this to the waterfront stadium pile. Not deliverable.

[waldo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pub Charities (lion foundation, trilian trust etc) won't donate to sports that have no testing structure?

I am not sure if you are correct, certainly not saying you are wrong as I am not sure on the exact criteria for their funding. However, if it was their policy that a sport that does not have a testing structure in place does not receive funding that would rule out the NZFBB, even with their current testing regime. This would be because the NABBA federation who is also part of the sport does not test either. If it is true though, that they won’t donate if there is no testing there could be a way around it. Under my proposed system the local shows would be tested so maybe they could give funding only for the local shows. They could also though give individual funding to the athletes who wish to go to the World Champs, this is because these athletes need to have passed a drug test before they go. Also community trusts may donate to the local shows as they would be intended to be community events. As long as the focus of this local tier is based around “come give it a go” and “fun for the whole family” type concepts there would not be too many questions asked about drug testing as the events should not attract drugged up looking athletes. Another reason too many question would not be asked as the money requested at this level would not be a large amount in the grand scheme of things for the trust. The local show organisers could even ask for this money so they can do some drug testing.

In regards to the funding issue, I know of a high level BB in Wellington who undertook to get funding from a pub charity there. He was told no-go because of the prevalence of drugs in the sport.

[Jazz]

2guns-

Yes the rugby analogy is partly true, the tickets do cost more for those games. This however is because it is a well known fact the overheads to run a higher level rugby game increases dramtically. The cost difference in running a a game with the Auckland Airnz Cup side and an All Blacks game is huge, it is obvious to see the differences. There were no obvious differences however between the Auckland Championships and the National Championships for bodybuilding.

No the supplement companies very varely if ever, and this applies for all sports sponsor an athlete based on potential. When they do this it is only for the highest level of competition. Supplement companies will not look around gyms looking for a 16-18 year old who could be a world champ. It's more likely they will sponsor a class winner at the Nationals who has potential to do well at their chosen next level.

Finally although there is more than one way to bake a cake, no matter what god you pray to he created everyone the same. There are specific areas of training and nutrition that vary from person to person, however these areas would be personalised during consulatations between the athlete and coach. The intention would be for the trainer/nutritionist to be the most knowledge avaliable so it would be most likely that the top athletes are allready working with the chosen expert anyway.

[Jazz]

Andrew,

Yes I admit those two statements contradict, I don't have enough time right now to clear up the difference, but for now yes they stand as contradicting. Later today I will get up a proper post to properly explain the difference between the two.

[Jazz]

Waldo,

I am doing a little bit of work in the background opposed to the waterfront stadium, so I can assure there is a huge difference between the two.

What I propose is looking at these ideas an refining them over a 2 year period before implementing them, it may even take 3 years. The waterfront stadium is a raw unrefined idea that is supposed to be implemented by April. Theres a big difference, as soon as I made the first post a consulatation process began, there has been absolutely no consulatation process on the waterfront stadium.

Regarding the high level bodybuilder from Wellington that tried for that funding, do you know if the person who done the proposal is very succesfully at working to get sponsorships and donations. In creating proposals of this kind there is a big difference between a raw individual creating the application and a seasoned veteran. How pre-emtive was the proposal? Did it leave the charity with too many questions? A common mistake a lot of people make.

[waldo]

I have an insight into the stadium development as well through my Dad's association with the rugby union. It's a shambles alright. What work are you doing on it?

In regards to the Welly bb, he has been in the game for a long time. i saw his proposal and have to say it was well done. He isn't a stupid man that's for sure. The decision was based on set criteria, so there wasn't a lot he could do.

[rigger]

To get funding from the Government the NZFBB has to be in the drug testing program. Also even at the Professional level there is very little money to go around. Very few Pros are doing well financially from being Pro. Also not all top athletes who have done well internationally in their chosen sport are taking drugs. Look at the kiwi tri athletes theyre drug tested all the time and are still winning at world level. Just a few thoughts.

[Jazz]

A better comparison with triathlon-

Number of carded tri athletes – 50

Number of carded bodybuilders – 0

Triathlon also has the national team concept I previously mentioned. Athletes chosen to represent New Zealand in triathlon are provided access to trainers, nutritionists and coaches.

Why is bodybuilding not even mentioned in the high performance program? The argument for having drug testing for government funding is flawed. How many coachers, athletes or officials are “carded”? How many coaches or athletes have received a Prime Ministers Scholarship? The investment allocation table for high performance distribution does not even list body building on it. In return for drug testing elite body builders there is no apparent financial return.

[Jazz]

Could someone please advise what the actual government funding for the last two years was. I looked at SPARC’s report to Parliament for the year ended 30 June 2006, appendix 1(A), this is the list for allocation of funds for investment in National Governing Bodies. According to this list there was no money given to the NZFBB in the last two years. There are a lot of sports on this list and I genuinely hope I am just missing it. Please, if someone knows what the funding from SPARC was can they please post it up here. As I say I hope I am just going blind.

The report is at http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/A ... _38492.pdf

Appenidix 1 is pages 33-36

[Flex]

Unfortunately I don't think Sparc would ever fund Bodybuilding. Public perception of bb's is that everybody that does it uses the gear, and that the only way to look anywhere half decent is to use gear.

This isn't helped by the fact that there are forums like nzbb where people openly talk about their cycles, the competitions they are planning on doing, what age they started taking gear etc

True there are drugs in other sports but I can't say I've come across any other sporting forum where the members talk about what kind of drugs to use other than bodybuilding forums.

Nor have I ever encountered a sport where people actively seek to remove drug testing from the sport for its elite or upper level athletes just so that they can be competitive at a world level.

In my opinion, public perception is never going to change unless there are more steps taken to enforce a true drug free policy. Obviously most bb's wouldn't like this to much. And until public perception changes, Sparc, and other sources of funding, won't allocate a penny to bodybuilding.

[2guns]

This isn't helped by the fact that there are forums like nzbb where people openly talk about their cycles, the competitions they are planning on doing, what age they started taking gear etc

True there are drugs in other sports but I can't say I've come across any other sporting forum where the members talk about what kind of drugs to use other than bodybuilding forums.

Nor have I ever encountered a sport where people actively seek to remove drug testing from the sport for its elite or upper level athletes just so that they can be competitive at a world level.

:pfft: so true :pfft:

[Andrew]

I’d have to agree with Flex, Body Building has made its own bed now it has to sleep in it

[waldo]

The drugs affect the funding given, but this year the Govt agency responsible gave to only 17 sports. Weightlifting was included, but I think you'll find they haven't had a positive drug test for five or so years. I would believe if BB could maintain the same record, then it might be up for some dollars. Add to this the fact that the sport gains little or no exposure for the country. Govt money is given to sports that will gain high profile for NZ internationally, this is why Cycliing, Triathlon etc get cash. There are also far more people who compete in these sports....look at the Taupo ride this weekend, 12000+ people and also the Tri events held....they attract huge amounts.

Internationally whatdoes BB have that the greater public would get behind? The Olympia? I don't think so!

I think it's unfair to say BB has made it's own bed though, in NZ the powers that be have tried to move it away form the drug taking aspect to promote a natural sport...an Oxymoron when it comes to BB. I would assume the idea was to take the sport natural, get funding, get exposure, grow the sport in that respect.

That is a commendable path to take. But with the numbers that do compete coupled with the cost of getting to the stage, There is a gross imbalance in this sport to be able to fund it to the extent Jazz talks of. It is always going to be a personal choice sport, where mentally only a small percentage of the population will have it to get to the stage in great nick.

To this end I would say continue the path the NZFBB are taking, as they have obviously not had too bad a year as far as num bers, quality, financially. Those people on the executive such as Master Tel, those that take large numbers to the stage such as Tony Ligaliga, should be encouraged to continue to seek sponsorship to enable the passage of the sport. Once a potential sponsor sees momentum, they become interested. Momentum in the right direction!

[Jazz]

Read SPARC's report, they gave funding to about 100 different sport organisations. 17 sports? Where did this figure come from? Looking at the list of funded National Sporting Organisations there appears to be around 80 different sports funded. The remaining are orgnistaions/trusts that are not specific to one sport.

Motorsport New Zealand was funded, does anybody know the figure of how many cars failed on any single part of an inspection in the last 5 years. I bet there was more than a couple caught who had illegally modified equipment to gain an advantage.

05/06 Funding

Touch $310,000

Rugby League $280,000

Body Building $0

According the the Sports Disputes Tribunal website:

05 Results/decisions

Touch - 3 Positive drug tests(all Cannabis)

Rugby League - 4 Positive drug tests(2 Cannabis, 1 Epherdrine, 1 fail to supply)

Bodybuilding - 3 Postive tests(1 BZP, 1 Clen, 1 AAS)

If bodybuilding has a serious drug problem so does Touch and so does Rugby League. Both these sports still recieve funding. Is anyone going to try and claim that Touch players do not talk openly amongst themselves about Cannabis?

A few people are now trying to say there is no SPARC funding because of the drug problem. However drug testing supporters are saying there has to be testing so there can be government funding. There is no government funding so therefore no need for drug testing.

All of this also leads to the question, why does the NZFBB use the SPARC logo on its posters? There is no SPARC funding so why is the SPARC logo used? Also apparently SPARC is a sponsor of the NZFBB, go to their website, click on sponsor links and the link to SPARC is there. What sponsorship arrangment is this?