Carb loading - strategies?

[nate225]

About time I asked a serious question and learnt something rather than spending time on timewasting threads!

From those that have competed, how did you carb load (type of carbs, timing & volume) and what did you do with your water intake, sodium, potassium etc if anything. (If using any type of diuretic please mention details so as not to confuse me & other readers!).

Looking for options.

From memory in 2000 I carb depleted from 4 days out, halving carbs, then halving again 3 days out, then zero carbs 2 days out. Was sodium depleting at that time too and added in some potassium (slowK, which gave some heart palpitations). Was water loading too, keeping intake high until the end of the carb deplete. I them slowly added carbs in the form of kumara on the Friday from lunctime onwards with limited water intake (sip or ice if needed). That night I used a Lasix tab (which I'm going to avoid this time around!). Carried on the same before the day show and looked not bad on stage.

Thoughts?

[nate225]

BUMP!

Harry? Android? Soundsgood? Bigkiwi? MikeK? Anyone else who's hit stage a few times!

[Android]

Tonight bro, got this crazy notion going on called...work hahahaha

Answering a question of this calibre requires alot of memory cells :pfft:

[Android]

ok, assuming a show is on a Saturday, these amounts and days are set for me and each day I would assess and change...e.g. if I sodium load and don't take enough then I have to adjust the day I stop as it put me a day out...it's important to know what happens and why for sodium/ carb loading so you to can make your own adjustments when it isn't quite going as planned.

I talked to Darryn O about contest prep and what the drill is for him...there is no drill. There's the basics but he said if you're growing each year then it's different each time and you can't just repeat each time.

Looking at Nato and how amazing his condition was and is, he competes at about the same size (BIG) most years and has nailed his system it seems to me...I would if I was down that way look him up and pay for his advice. Prolly the best in Waikato region for knowledge and consistency.

Ok let's say comp day is Saturday...

I would keep the same carbs as for cardio in the last few weeks and avoid a carb depletion system. If you are doing cardio right you should be in deficit anyway so eating more carbs close to comp will be a mini carb-load anyway without the dangers of this thing called spilling over.

Monday

I would start sodium and water loading, drinking 10-12 litres and 5-10gms sodium.

Tuesday

Repeat

Wednesday

Repeat

By now you should be pissing 6 times in the night alone and all day

Thursday

No sodium at all, eat normally. Half water to 5 litres of distilled water.

Friday AM

No sodium at all. 2.5 litres of distilled water to last all day and night so go easy during the day but 2.5l is still plenty.

Friday lunch time

Carb-loading 100gms every few hours with water.

Take a diuretic...you need water for diuretics to work efficiently.

Friday PM

Introduce fats and eat more carbs. Some sodium is ok late at night like from a pizza or something, but no more. A few juicy steaks high in fat is perfect at night it will take bodily fluids and hours to digest overnight.

Take 600mg potassium (SpanK)

Saturday AM

Only use another diuretic if you are not dry enough. Eat. Don't drink yet.

Take 600mg potassium (SpanK), some sodium is ok.

Saturday (at show 2-3 hrs prior)

50ml Glycerol - pulls water into blood to further dry you out. You should try this a week before a workout to feel the effects of Glycerol, srs

Saturday (pumping up at show)

Eat a little and drink water before pumping up, go onstage feeling good and full.

Couple of random points:

The hardest part of all this....is eating the right amount of carbs for the amount of water you are consuming.Get it right and you can drink water and look dry.

Eating fats with carbs is supposed to allow you to eat more carbs without spilling over.

Nato got food poisoning and lost alot of fluids the night before the Nats (by accident) but this assists with pulling water out....although it screws your electrolyte balance....still his condition look freak'n great regardless.

[Optimass]

Saturday (at show 2-3 hrs prior)

50ml Glycerol - pulls water into blood to further dry you out. You should try this a week before a workout to feel the effects of Glycerol, srs

would do this on the switch from sodium to potassium also - would be on the wednesday for me.

Carb up on kumara and dried pineapple Thursday small amounts / Friday and then creamed rice on Saturday morning

...

Havent done the glycerol on the day but it makes a lot of sense - but recomend a test run ... can make you feel a bit poorly.

[Optimass]

between morning and night show KFC ... wooo hoooo!

[Android]

Yes Optis prolly right a fewvdays b4 can take Glycerol. I didn't only cos I didn't understand why completely

Would rethink eating kumara on the days u want zero sodium tho mate. Doesn't make sense to buy distilled water for <9mg sodium and then go eat a 100gm kumara with 50mg sodium in it...logic is not sound to me.

[nate225]

I've been eating rice as my main carbs for a long time now (with diet), so although I know kumara/fruit is okay with me I was thinking of sticking to rice as my GI tract will be fully adapted to that now. Last thing I want to do is eat something that give me a bloat/gassy gut before stage! Thoughts?

Also will use some simple carbs from lollies I imagine?

I did use glycerol for one show (and a heap for hyperhydration in PLing) so I'm pretty good with using that, but as you say trial a week or so out to see how gut handles this time.

[Riccardo]

I wouldn't mess with sodium/potassium etc. Your body is extremely adept and countering changes you make to electrolyte balance anyways and it does so within hours, so manipulating them days before hand really isn't going to effect your physique on the day. Just keep sodium low throughout your prep.

The only two things I would do is increase your carbs 24hr before and taper your water down throughout the week. Its that simple, people will hate on me for saying it but if you're lean you are lean, carb loading, depleting, sodium/potassium loading, fluid manipulation will all make you look 2% better or 100% worse if you screw it up. People like to make it sound more complicated than what it really is. They would rather blame their shit conditioning on the fact they were holding too much water than admit they were just not lean enough.

Some important points:

-Don't completely cut water, taper down and continue to sip throughout the day of the comp.

-Eat small amounts of sugary lollies prior to pumping up (no more than 25-50g).

-eat a small piece of fruit before carbing up as fructose fills up liver glycogen first.

[Android]

It's about producing an extreme look, and pulling water out from under the skin is not something you can achieve by cutting sodium slowly and sipping water....not that I am aware of at least, please share how you pull water out from under your skin Ricarrdo.

Yes you can look worse! Alot worse than if you didn't do it.

The steps are a little complex the first time around because they definitely require planning and timing every day so this is not not for the casual competitor at all...

it's for Nate :twisted:

[Riccardo]

I pretty much outlined how I would go about it, slow water taper with a carb load 24hr before the show, glycogen formation is going to pull water from the extracellular compartment. Explain to me your logic behind dropping sodium 3 days before hand? No hate, I just don't see how it works. Wouldn't cutting sodium only serve to increase water retention and sodium resorption? And your body does this very quickly, like within hours. Like I said I would personally keep sodium low-moderate throughout the entire prep.

I'd love to see pics of competitors before and after sodium manipulation all other things being equal, because I'm just not convinced that it works to any significant extent.

[PeterDolan]

I don't get it when some one is dry, hard and vascular a week out, basically ready, why they feel the need to deplete or change anything they're doing?

[Android]

I pretty much outlined how I would go about it, slow water taper with a carb load 24hr before the show, glycogen formation is going to pull water from the extracellular compartment. Explain to me your logic behind dropping sodium 3 days before hand? No hate, I just don't see how it works. Wouldn't cutting sodium only serve to increase water retention and sodium resorption? And your body does this very quickly, like within hours. Like I said I would personally keep sodium low-moderate throughout the entire prep.

I'd love to see pics of competitors before and after sodium manipulation all other things being equal, because I'm just not convinced that it works to any significant extent.

Sure thing, I photo documented everything...I have 000's of photos taken over months of preparation for every show so am just picking the ones you ask for...

I did my first show end of 2008 using sodium load/ water load and deplete, I did not carb deplete for this one.

Day of show:

This next show last year I followed my Nutro's advice who gave me the exact safe option of what you describe. I followed what he said to the letter and can assure you I hated following what I knew gave an inferior result....my Journal describes this in detail

Day of show - after a slow water deplete. Not a bad look tbh but nothing like the water drawn out from the one above unless you've only got one eye.

Have you tried it or did you try and fail and conclude that what most bodybuilders do is incorrect?

Srs and not taking the piss from either of you but it happens more than you think, people diss something they either never tried or they tried and failed so therefore it must not work...or they read alot and don't try

[Android]

Fark I hope that wasn't too harsh of me just reading it back :-)

Happy to share other shows and what I did but the slow water deplete one was the least successful but it still gives good results...but not dramatic results is what I want to point out.

PD is right if u look good a week out and are happy to go onstage with that condition then cool stay safe and just water deplete slowly. Agree guys sorry if it comes off as a bit pretentious.

[PeterDolan]

I was meaning the guys that are a few coats of tan away from being ready. Some guys look awesome a week out but come in off, why? They carb loaded or what ever because that's what everyone does. Now some or most need to in order to improve. I guess i'm saying, if you don't need to, why f*ck with it. Conversely, put the work in and don't leave it til the last few days

[Optimass]

Sodium load increases the need for the body to utilise water to clear it from the system - (must taking a particularly high amount of water to do it).

By wed/Thu ready to start loading carbs in so switch to hit a glycerol on the Wednesday and switch out the sodium for potassium - Body still thinks Sodium in high quantity so continues to try and flush the water through the body quickly.

Half your water each day over the 3 days and you clear it all pretty much from under your skin ...

Would rethink eating kumara on the days u want zero sodium tho mate. Doesn't make sense to buy distilled water for <9mg sodium and then go eat a 100gm kumara with 50mg sodium in it...logic is not sound to me.

Right mate - is why I held a bit water back may be but to be fair in order to make the potassium load effective you only need to drop tyour sodium level below the level at which you load. The bigger the drop the more effective I suppose - but I guess the leaner you are the more you can take in too. (Any you were pretty sharp) A little sodium will assist with glycogen stores in muscle = a pump you can hold for longer on stage.

John Davie told me once that he did a creatine load coming into a show - this would be like running sodium right up to the day ... dude was (is) a freak on stage. And then I remember guys eating french fries after a morning show and then coming in evening harder and more vascular.

Lots of different ideas ... the trick is finding the one that works best for your physique.

Im not sure if/when I do another show, I prolly wouldnt do a carb deplete & load though - If you can get yourself down in bf to SGs condition a deload would be counter productive possibly as you typically lose size ... a small load 1 day may be ok though to ensure you get a maximise pump.

What do you think?

[Android]

Yeah carb depletion is overrated like Riccardo and prolly PD say just eating more carbs the day b4 is enough.

Carb depletion fails when u do a half-arsed job of it u have to drain every muscle group of its stores as much as u can. Being low carb and working out is not 100% carb depletion.

Oh if I was SG I would still use sodium manipulation the imbalance is what ensures water is pulled from under the skin and not from muscle cells but like PD and prolly Ric are meaning, fark why bother he's already in superior shape. You don't use sodium manip to just drop water else u can do that like Riccardo suggests or take a diuretic ... both will pull water from everywhere and u will lose some size wen it's from your muscles...logically try and have a bigger muscle that holds less water=fail

I was fatter in the first pic btw by about 2%. Remember being pissed that my skin was waterless but I still had fat over my abs tbh. 2nd pic was 5.5% bf

Just have fun, do what u feel is right and u won't b wrong :-)

[I Declare War]

Some good reading in this thread. Bookmarked. 8)

[Optimass]

I was fatter lol .... 7%! but srs ... what I like about your last comp was how full you were in comparison. That's about getting the mix right with sodium/potassium and loading with the right carbs. I remember seeing you a couple of weeks out and mirin how full you were at the stage you were at :nod:

[Android]

I was fatter lol .... 7%! but srs ... what I like about your last comp was how full you were in comparison. That's about getting the mix right with sodium/potassium and loading with the right carbs. I remember seeing you a couple of weeks out and mirin how full you were at the stage you were at :nod:

Ehmm...cool, u PL folks sure are friendly arent you...

[PeterDolan]

For the record, I'm not saying that manipulating the variables of sodium etc cannot work, I'm just saying that hard work will get you in better shape. If you do yo cardio and diet well, you wont have to drop carbs so low to warrant a full on carb load that may or may not work

[soundsgood]

I agree with you Pete.

If you're not lean enough, trying to manipulate sodium and water levels will do very little to enhance your physique, you are better off investing your time in cardio for 6 hours a day. Similarily carb depleting and loading when you're not lean enough is counter productive. You would look better with only a slight load. I have learnt this the hard way through several shows, photo shoots and Music festivals :shifty:

However if you are lean enough Carb loading is obviously a fantastic tool to increase the size of your muscles, your pump and they soak up the water under your skin and make you vascular as possible. It takes 72 hours for your body to metabolise excess carbs into fat. Therefore if you are carb loading for 3 days or less it is very very hard to spill over. People that do were either not lean enough to start off with, overhydrated themselves or didn't understand that carb loading is EATING CARBS. Not Protein. Not Fats. Thats right. Just eat Carbs. You don't need the protein or the fats at that stage. You might think you look okay eating a bucket of Fried chicken the morning before you go on stage for prejudging but I can guarrantee you would have looked better if you had just stuck to your carbs. If you eat to much SHIT it will just bloat you and blur your physique. Thats not spilling over, thats you being stupid.

It pains me to see people Sodium depleting for a couple of weeks before a show and then throw all that prep out the window by throwing sodium back at their body in the leadup to the show. Once you introduce Sodium back in your body will smooth out within an hour. You just wasted your time. Dont add it back in. I disagree with you about the sodium levels in Kumara Android. They are very minimal and I think Kumara is one of the best carb up foods you can use, but each to their own.

Water consumption is a tricky one to get right. You only know what works best through trial and error. I would stay away from diuretics. They are for fat people. Your muscles are made of 70% water so why would you want to pull the water out of them and make yourself look smaller and flatter. You want to pull the water from between your muscle and skin, a correctly performed sodium deplete and carb up will do that. You definately want to drop your water levels from normal but not so much you are dehydrated. Keep sipping away on water as required on show day. The last thing you want is to cramp up or be unable to remember your routine because your brain is to foggy.

Drinking of Wine or alcohol before you go on stage is stupid too. Sure if you want to risk alcohol poisoning drink it the night before (like what happened to me before the nats last year :puke: ), it might dry you out a little bit or maybe not. I wouldn't risk it. But why would you do it backstage? Its not going to do anything positive to your physique a handful of jellybeans 5 minutes before you go on stage will do (note I said just a handful, thats all you need, and have them just before you go on, not an hour before!), but potentially alot of bad.

[HarryB]

This is a great read!

[Android]

For the record, I'm not saying that manipulating the variables of sodium etc cannot work, I'm just saying that hard work will get you in better shape. If you do yo cardio and diet well, you wont have to drop carbs so low to warrant a full on carb load that may or may not work

For the record x2 I agree with you about the carbs. Get the fat off you first and eat a day before the show to fill up your muscles...bam you're done!

But sodium....you can't be dry under the skin a week out your body won't allow it with Aldosterone, a steroid hormone of the type Mineralocorticoids responsible for water retention.

[HarryB]

For the record, I'm not saying that manipulating the variables of sodium etc cannot work, I'm just saying that hard work will get you in better shape. If you do yo cardio and diet well, you wont have to drop carbs so low to warrant a full on carb load that may or may not work

For the record x2 I agree with you about the carbs. Get the fat off you first and eat a day before the show to fill up your muscles...bam you're done!

But sodium....you can't be dry under the skin a week out your body won't allow it with Aldosterone, a steroid hormone of the type Mineralocorticoids responsible for water retention.

That's it, carb load or not what makes the real difference is how "dry" you can make yourself look by thinning out the water under your skin.