Testosterone. Im going back wards? What gives?

[mrgeeky]

Free, but not working. Strong logic.

yes, but I expect the doctor to upgrade me to something that does work..

And guess what, it'll still be freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! :-)

why go UG and pay when you can get something that you know is 100% ok and its free.. Strong logic now? :-)

[severe]

Free, yes. But if you want to get more than the bare minimal, you will need to use it faster than your prescription.

at the end of teh day, UG is cheap, yet comparable to pharma for end results. not free, but dirt cheap. With teh competition, prices are stable.

[mrgeeky]

Free, yes. But if you want to get more than the bare minimal, you will need to use it faster than your prescription.

at the end of teh day, UG is cheap, yet comparable to pharma for end results. not free, but dirt cheap. With teh competition, prices are stable.

it will be interesting wht he does give me and what levels it brings me up too.

Before I started taking them, my test level was 16, so what ever he gives me will need to be over that obviously or there wont be any point in taking HRT.

If Im only being brought up to a level of 16 or less, them I might as well stay natural - as in no HRT and just use UG and cycle it.

I had some really impressive increases in my lifts when i started on the test caps, so it does work well for me..

Im picking if he gives me enough to put me well over the level of 16 that I was at, I'll be happy and wont need anymore..

It's going to be intersting to see what he comes up with..

[severe]

Keep posting updates to this thread, as time goes by. HRT is on many minds around here. Some are already on it (at various levels).

sweet.

[mrgeeky]

Keep posting updates to this thread, as time goes by. HRT is on many minds around here. Some are already on it (at various levels).

sweet.

I have saved a shortcut to this page on my desktop and will pop in from time to time and let you guys know how its going.. Doc wants me to use what test I have which is about 1 months supply, then go and see him, so it may be a few weeks befor I have anything to report back..

To be honest, Im not overly keen on having to inject myself every week for the rest of my life.. But it's a hell of a lot better idea then dragging my sorry ass around like I was before..

One does wonder though when I will stop taking, considering its for life.. I cant see myself on shaky pegs at the age of 85 wondering off down the docs for my script for roids.. lol

Will definitely stay in touch.. cheers guys..

[mrgeeky]

I forgot to mention, I tried the tip of taking tabs with food..

Made quite a bit of difference.. Placebo effect? Or not?

Dunno, but it did appear to make quite some difference to my energy levels and stregth at the gym today...

So I will keep it up...

cheers for the tip on that guys..

[farrout]

You may recall from previous posts I've made on this subject, that even on 6 caps a day - 3 morning & night - my levels were still too low hence the move to Sustanon 250 & then Depo-Testosterone pinning weekly.

Hi Farrout..

yep, but you have to remember, this is my health Im dealing with here.. I do have to take personal responsibility for my own actions.. hence the softly softly approach.. Just finding my way through all this.

But anyway, if I went to my doc and said, hey give me 250mg of Sustanon injectibles per week.. Im sure he would have jumped to the conclusion I was just looking for a roid fix and kicked me out of his rooms..

I cant go against my doctors orders.. I have to follow his wishes through this process. So I may be going the long way about it, but I'll get there mate..

Im sure thats where my doctor is heading with the above dosage you stated.

Farrout, from memory you felt kinda flat on the Sustanon 250mg so moved over to the Depo-Testosterone pinning is that correct?

Hey man,

Firstly, my apologies for the delay in replying.

The test caps, Sustanon 250 & Depo-Testosterone have all been prescribed by an endocrinologist. The preceeding patches & cream were prescribed by GP's.

When I was prescribed Sustanon 250, it was at 1 amp per fortnight -125mg per week. What I found was that I had a great 1st week & a lethargic, flat 2nd week. It was then decided to change to weekly shots - Depo-Testosterone (Cypionate), which is much better.

[mrgeeky]

thanks farrout, I appreciate that.. i'll take that info to my doc and see what he thinks.. cheers for that..

[Android]

Hi guys, can some one offer some advice...

I was feeling really really lethargic and had been for years.. So I talked the doc in to giving me arrow testosterone supplements..

I sTarted off on 1 40mg cap of test a day and worked up to 2 caps perday. My natural testosterone levels were 16 at the time and I'm aged 50 years old.

.

They seemed to work wonders. I did notice a huge improvement for starters, got good weight gains on my weights workouts, felt much better, started losing weight, but after a few weeks that seemed to slow and I felt like I was starting to go backwards and started to feel a little lethargic again, although admittledly, not as bad as I was originally....

So I went in for another testosterone level test and my levels are down to 9... Like wow, that was a shock.. What gives? I thought the testosterone supplements were supposed to raise my levels, not lower them?

Im guessing that taking this stuff has shut down my own test manufacturing, and now Im relying on the meager dose I have been given by the doc. If thats the case, wouldnt I be better off just going with out test supplements.. another words if I stop taking the test supplements, wont my levels go back up to 16?

Also, at the moment, Im on this stuff 24/7, wouldnt I be better just cylcing the stuff..

16nmols/l for a 50 year old is good, no it's great!

Before I started cycles for bodybuilding my natural levels as a 37yr old were 18nmols/l and I had been happily bodybuilding for 8 years prior to that...no problem.

I wonder what made the doctor think 16nmols/l was low for a 50yr old and that lethargy was a direct result of good Test levels...

50yr old ladies don't get prescribed Test when they feel tired...they get told to sleep more. :shock:

I mean you're 50, you shouldn't be feeling like a spring chicken and prolly have to adjust your bedtime or something. My mum goes to bed about 9pm these days, has heaps of energy for it, and would have lower Test than you.

[mrgeeky]

Hi guys, can some one offer some advice...

I was feeling really really lethargic and had been for years.. So I talked the doc in to giving me arrow testosterone supplements..

I sTarted off on 1 40mg cap of test a day and worked up to 2 caps perday. My natural testosterone levels were 16 at the time and I'm aged 50 years old.

.

They seemed to work wonders. I did notice a huge improvement for starters, got good weight gains on my weights workouts, felt much better, started losing weight, but after a few weeks that seemed to slow and I felt like I was starting to go backwards and started to feel a little lethargic again, although admittledly, not as bad as I was originally....

So I went in for another testosterone level test and my levels are down to 9... Like wow, that was a shock.. What gives? I thought the testosterone supplements were supposed to raise my levels, not lower them?

Im guessing that taking this stuff has shut down my own test manufacturing, and now Im relying on the meager dose I have been given by the doc. If thats the case, wouldnt I be better off just going with out test supplements.. another words if I stop taking the test supplements, wont my levels go back up to 16?

Also, at the moment, Im on this stuff 24/7, wouldnt I be better just cylcing the stuff..

16nmols/l for a 50 year old is good, no it's great!

Before I started cycles for bodybuilding my natural levels as a 37yr old were 18nmols/l and I had been happily bodybuilding for 8 years prior to that...no problem.

I wonder what made the doctor think 16nmols/l was low for a 50yr old and that lethargy was a direct result of good Test levels...

50yr old ladies don't get prescribed Test when they feel tired...they get told to sleep more. :shock:

I mean you're 50, you shouldn't be feeling like a spring chicken and prolly have to adjust your bedtime or something. My mum goes to bed about 9pm these days, has heaps of energy for it, and would have lower Test than you.

You know, what you say makes perfect logical sense..

Even the doctor that i talked in to giving me the first test caps said although my test levels were a little low they were normal for my age..

So although I entirely agree with you, there is a little more to the story.

There is no doubt I have been struggling to get off my big fat ass for years. To do anything has been a real effort..

Now I can understand people thinking, lazy lazy lazy..

But I have tried and tried.. I have had days I have driven to the gym, intent on forcing myself to train, only to get there and go, nah its too hard and go home again. I was so bad I could put my bag in a locker, make a point of remembering where it was and go to train, only to come back and forget which locker my bag was in. I was hopeless.

All the classic signs.. Foggy thinking, lethargic etc etc.

Now one might also say, yeah, get more sleep.. Well one of my problems was insomnia.. So that doesnt help much.. But then you are right in when I got a good nights sleep I did feel much better then next day. But if I got a bad nights sleep I was a total train wreck the next day and spent the day on the couch eating.. Yet when on test, even lower doses than my natural level, I handle lack of sleep much much easier.. Weird eh?

I might as well tell the whole story.. I also have had trouble being able to produce sprogs.. Plenty of sperm but most of it damaged.. Funny enough no problems with the old fella in the bed department, just the sperm quality.

Anyway, when I take test, i feel much better, even on doses that are lower than my natural level of 16nmols/l.

So I cant help but add things up, the fact my sperm was of low quality, the fact I struggled with energy etc, and the fact that even lower doses of test than my natural levels makes me feel better, perhaps it means that the test Im producing is problematic?

I'm just doing the best I can and guessing my way through this.. I dont want to let another 10 years go by sitting on the couch thinking, what if I had of taken test over those years.. How much more would I have acheived?

And I certainly dont want to drop dead of a heart attack at 55 years old because I was a couch potato...

Regarding taking testosterone, I havent seen any proof that test does you any harm. So which is the better option, with and training hard, or with outand being a fat lazy bum struggling to train?

In fact there is now evidence that HRT is very good for you as seen in the link below. Sitting on the couch getting fat is my alternative. You see, before i started taking test, everything was so much harder to do. I felt like an old man. I had no interst in anything. I just wanted to watch tv all day. You get this strange feeling in the back of your mind that its not right, you need to be doing something but everything was a struggle and nothing interested me. Testoserone supplements has changed all that for me.

To be entirely honest, I dont pretend to know the answers, Im just sick and tired of being a uselss bum and am trying my best to get fit and healthy and to have some quality of life. On test I am so much happier, so much more alert, I feel young. Stuff interests me again. i want to get out and do stuff. i went for a run when I first started on test and I was running with a spring in my step, not dragging my sorry ass around the field like I had a big sack of potato's on my back. ..

Regading the link below, I think I'll start a thread on it too, as I think it will be a good read for others...

As for my comments above, Im more than happy to keep an open mind and listen to any one's thoughts on what I have posted..

Here's that link..

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/new ... d=10756268

[musclenz]

Testosterone is not only important in sexual function, muscle & skin development but just as importantly in the physiology of the brain & its function. Decreases in testosterone experienced with time can have profound effects on a man's health.

"The normal range of testosterone is reported as 350- 1200ng/dl (12 - 42 nmol/L) . Studies in the 1940's showed the average testosterone level to be at 700 ng/dl (24 nmol/L), 300 ng/dl (10.5 nmol/L) higher than for men today. In the past, a drop in testosterone levels to 250 ng/dl (8.7 nmol/L) was rarely reported before men were 80 years of age. Yet today, it is not an uncommon value for middle aged men!

Testosterone levels are highest in the early twenties. The decrease in serum levels is now occurring at an even earlier age. Up to 50% of all men at 40 now have testosterone levels below what was considered the normal range of 450 ng/dl (15.6 nmol/l). Recent studies imply that the pesticides and preservatives in foods and the hormone pellets to fatten up cattle, pork and chicken act as "hormonal disruptor's." Based on the low sperm counts, infertility, obesity and low serum testosterone I see in younger men, I fear this is true."

Ref www.usdoctor.com

Yes I did the metric converson for us Kiwi Boys :pfft:

[mrgeeky]

Testosterone is not only important in sexual function, muscle & skin development but just as importantly in the physiology of the brain & its function. Decreases in testosterone experienced with time can have profound effects on a man's health.

"The normal range of testosterone is reported as 350- 1200ng/dl (12 - 42 nmol/L) . Studies in the 1940's showed the average testosterone level to be at 700 ng/dl (24 nmol/L), 300 ng/dl (10.5 nmol/L) higher than for men today. In the past, a drop in testosterone levels to 250 ng/dl (8.7 nmol/L) was rarely reported before men were 80 years of age. Yet today, it is not an uncommon value for middle aged men!

Testosterone levels are highest in the early twenties. The decrease in serum levels is now occurring at an even earlier age. Up to 50% of all men at 40 now have testosterone levels below what was considered the normal range of 450 ng/dl (15.6 nmol/l). Recent studies imply that the pesticides and preservatives in foods and the hormone pellets to fatten up cattle, pork and chicken act as "hormonal disruptor's." Based on the low sperm counts, infertility, obesity and low serum testosterone I see in younger men, I fear this is true."

Ref http://www.usdoctor.com

Yes I did the metric converson for us Kiwi Boys :pfft:

Well your post does add fuel to the fire, for Android's post..

"Up to 50% of all men at 40 now have testosterone levels below what was considered the normal range of 450 ng/dl (15.6 nmol/l). "

Maybe I need to back off this stuff and look for alternative reasons to my lethargy.. :?

[mrgeeky]

And Farrout, I guess Im lucky your not the sort to sling mud..

You would be right in calling me a friggen idiot for not listening to you right from the start..

I think it's either "weekly shots - Depo-Testosterone (Cypionate)" or nothing..

Messing around with these stupid little 40mg tabs are an utter waste of time. If they are going to be giving these to people maybe they should be only making them in 250mg caps or bigger..

What the hell is the point of giving any one a couple of 40mg caps?

All that happens is they take over from your own test making and leave you feeling like shit.

Went for a work out today. Had a half hearted work out and left.. Not feeling like a spring chicken at the moment.. lol

Now I got to figure out, go cold turkey and back to my natural test levels and try to figure out why so lethargic, or go see the doc and go on the larger more sensble dose of , "weekly shots - Depo-Testosterone (Cypionate)"

[Android]

Most doctors I've encountered includign my current one knows ver ylittle about HRT.

For lethargy and tiredness they usually address diet, exercise, stress at work and home, then move on to thyroid functions etc before considering low test levels.

Could be anything. A good friend of mine last year had lethargy and after dozens of tests turns out it was high level of mercury from fresh fish and tuna (a PhD student eating on a budget not a bodybuilder). One year later after avoiding certain foods it's low enough to not intefere with his sleep and energy levels....not once was he considered for HRT by any of the physicians, specialists etc.

If you enjoy HRT just be aware that it raises levels of other hormones like the adrenal glands which are stimulated more. And coming off then has a rebound affect whereby they are repressed for a while. So just be aware that post-cycle symptons could make u feel like shit and want to go back on HRT :-)

[farrout]

And Farrout, I guess Im lucky your not the sort to sling mud..

You would be right in calling me a friggen idiot for not listening to you right from the start..

No way ...

Look at what I did - patches, cream, capsules & then injections.

I can't talk.

[mrgeeky]

Most doctors I've encountered includign my current one knows ver ylittle about HRT.

For lethargy and tiredness they usually address diet, exercise, stress at work and home, then move on to thyroid functions etc before considering low test levels.

Could be anything. A good friend of mine last year had lethargy and after dozens of tests turns out it was high level of mercury from fresh fish and tuna (a PhD student eating on a budget not a bodybuilder). One year later after avoiding certain foods it's low enough to not intefere with his sleep and energy levels....not once was he considered for HRT by any of the physicians, specialists etc.

If you enjoy HRT just be aware that it raises levels of other hormones like the adrenal glands which are stimulated more. And coming off then has a rebound affect whereby they are repressed for a while. So just be aware that post-cycle symptons could make u feel like shit and want to go back on HRT :-)

some really great advice there..

I have stopped pissing around with these stupid little tabs..

wonder how Im going to feel over the next couple of weeks as I have been taking this for about 2 and a half months now... give or take..

Might give me a chance to see if I can take your advice above and see if I can work out if there is something else going on with me...

[mrgeeky]

hey guys, I have quite a few unanswered questions Im wondering if some one can advice on... These might sound like silly questions I guess only way to find out is to ask lol

1, Why cycle roids? is it a cost thing? Why not just go on and stay on for 6 months or a year or more?

2, And is there a problem with running cycles while being on HRT?

Another words really upping the doses or stacking for a few months, then dropping back down to your normal HRT levels, while your on HRT?

3, Is it ok to ignore PCT unless its needed? ie start getting itchy / puffy tits?

4, Is Arimidex or Proviron better than Nolvadex for PCT? Is there a reason why Nolvadex is always recommended? Which of the 3 is best to use and how should it be used? During a cylce, or after a cycle?

5,Farout, I notice you are on arimidex permanently, can I ask why?

I thought most people only used it at the end of a cycle or if really needed?

6, is Nizoral shampoo worth considering to stop hair loss while taking test? Does it work?

Any thoughts as to the above questions guys?

Just of note for anyone intersted, Im now taking 4 40mg caps in the morn and 3 at night.. Seems to be just the right amount to make me feel good..

Quite a lot more than the 3 the doctor has prescribed, so its going to be interesting to see what he says when I tell him.. Going to see him next week..

[Android]

hey guys, I have quite a few unanswered questions Im wondering if some one can advice on... These might sound like silly questions I guess only way to find out is to ask lol

1, Why cycle roids? is it a cost thing? Why not just go on and stay on for 6 months or a year or more?

2, And is there a problem with running cycles while being on HRT?

Another words really upping the doses or stacking for a few months, then dropping back down to your normal HRT levels, while your on HRT?

3, Is it ok to ignore PCT unless its needed? ie start getting itchy / puffy tits?

4, Is Arimidex or Proviron better than Nolvadex for PCT? Is there a reason why Nolvadex is always recommended? Which of the 3 is best to use and how should it be used? During a cylce, or after a cycle?

5,Farout, I notice you are on arimidex permanently, can I ask why?

I thought most people only used it at the end of a cycle or if really needed?

6, is Nizoral shampoo worth considering to stop hair loss while taking test? Does it work?

Any thoughts as to the above questions guys?

Just of note for anyone intersted, Im now taking 4 40mg caps in the morn and 3 at night.. Seems to be just the right amount to make me feel good..

Quite a lot more than the 3 the doctor has prescribed, so its going to be interesting to see what he says when I tell him.. Going to see him next week..

It can actually pay to study the bodily functions with respect to Testosterone, then you will know and understand most of these questions.

Knowing that when providing exogenous testosterone your body shhuts down it's own production would explain (in part) Question 1, 2 and possibly 3 depending on how much you learnt about it.

Google "hpta shutdown" and you will learn ALOT about the effects of exogenous testosterone in your body.

A1: If we stay on roids for a long long time our own bodies testosterone-producing system could shut-down permanently, or at least take many many months to kick back in. You have to have zero-exogenous Test in your system before your body will even consider producing it's own so we cycle on and off completely in the hope that we don't experience permanent shut-down.

Some cycles can last 6 months, some can last for years. You do so at your own risk and knowledge of your own body. Most start on 3-month cycle and if it works might do 4-month cycle next time if that went ok i.e. if their natural levels rebounded back to their previous levels, hence why it pays to get blood work down to tell you if you are returning to pre-cycle Test levels.

A2: HRT in a bodybuilders' world doesn't quite exist. There is something we use called 'cruising' but even that is prolly giving us a blood reading of 30-40nmols, not your natural level of 16nmol but levels of a 16y/old male. Then cycle in a higher amount for n-months, then cruise again. This is however "one continuous cycle". It's not cycling on and off testosterone so your body will still remain shut-down.

A3: PCT is usually required when you come off exogenous testosterone completely. It's not PCT if you take during the cycle that is more about controlling aromatization while taking roids (google it).

PCT assists in keeping your hormones balanced while your testosterone levels are low. As mentioned earlier your body will not start making it's own Testosterone again until all traces of exogenous Test is gone. So you HAVE to be prepared that you will drop to a Test level of 0...so you thought 16nmols felt low :-)

Anyway, when it is that low your Estrogen levels are in relation to Test, extremely high and out of balance. To avoid becoming a she-male you use Nolvadex or whatever to keep the Estrogen down during this period of time. Other PCT compounds like HCG will try and kick-start your own Test production...but most often people take stuff to keep the Estrogen levels down.

There's a start, that's roughly my understanding of things anyhoo...use Google and read about the HPTA function and read from all over the interweb and when you find common threads of understanding, that's usually the right information.

Here's some homework...find out why your balls shrink while taking exogenous testosterone :-)

[Chemo]

Hey MrG

Have a further read on cruising and blasting.

There's heaps of knowledge here or on overseas forums.

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/cruiseblast

I see it as a cheaper way to keep gains. PCT can be expensive and the recovery time means some of the gains go and your in a time where there's this strange down time. Being an older guy, there would be very little to lose by staying on, especially as your already on TRT/HRT which is your first cycle, so no dramas in adding extra or other compounds.

Cycling is mainly a health thing, so your not using so many things for a long period. I'll let the experienced guys chime in on that.

Proviron isnt really a PCT option, its a during cycle enhancement/preventative that controls estrogen, and frees up more available test.

Nizoral Shampoo? I want this in my life.

Hope that helps yo

EDIT. Android too quick!

[Chemo]

Just a thought

Would be good for some juice wizards to write a sticky with substances and ways to use them with cycle. A cool addition to have all that info in one place.

Clearing up stuff about PCT would be useful for those that are confused with what available

[mrgeeky]

hey guys, I have quite a few unanswered questions Im wondering if some one can advice on... These might sound like silly questions I guess only way to find out is to ask lol

1, Why cycle roids? is it a cost thing? Why not just go on and stay on for 6 months or a year or more?

2, And is there a problem with running cycles while being on HRT?

Another words really upping the doses or stacking for a few months, then dropping back down to your normal HRT levels, while your on HRT?

3, Is it ok to ignore PCT unless its needed? ie start getting itchy / puffy tits?

4, Is Arimidex or Proviron better than Nolvadex for PCT? Is there a reason why Nolvadex is always recommended? Which of the 3 is best to use and how should it be used? During a cylce, or after a cycle?

5,Farout, I notice you are on arimidex permanently, can I ask why?

I thought most people only used it at the end of a cycle or if really needed?

6, is Nizoral shampoo worth considering to stop hair loss while taking test? Does it work?

Any thoughts as to the above questions guys?

Just of note for anyone intersted, Im now taking 4 40mg caps in the morn and 3 at night.. Seems to be just the right amount to make me feel good..

Quite a lot more than the 3 the doctor has prescribed, so its going to be interesting to see what he says when I tell him.. Going to see him next week..

It can actually pay to study the bodily functions with respect to Testosterone, then you will know and understand most of these questions.

Knowing that when providing exogenous testosterone your body shhuts down it's own production would explain (in part) Question 1, 2 and possibly 3 depending on how much you learnt about it.

Google "hpta shutdown" and you will learn ALOT about the effects of exogenous testosterone in your body.

A1: If we stay on roids for a long long time our own bodies testosterone-producing system could shut-down permanently, or at least take many many months to kick back in. You have to have zero-exogenous Test in your system before your body will even consider producing it's own so we cycle on and off completely in the hope that we don't experience permanent shut-down.

Some cycles can last 6 months, some can last for years. You do so at your own risk and knowledge of your own body. Most start on 3-month cycle and if it works might do 4-month cycle next time if that went ok i.e. if their natural levels rebounded back to their previous levels, hence why it pays to get blood work down to tell you if you are returning to pre-cycle Test levels.

A2: HRT in a bodybuilders' world doesn't quite exist. There is something we use called 'cruising' but even that is prolly giving us a blood reading of 30-40nmols, not your natural level of 16nmol but levels of a 16y/old male. Then cycle in a higher amount for n-months, then cruise again. This is however "one continuous cycle". It's not cycling on and off testosterone so your body will still remain shut-down.

A3: PCT is usually required when you come off exogenous testosterone completely. It's not PCT if you take during the cycle that is more about controlling aromatization while taking roids (google it).

PCT assists in keeping your hormones balanced while your testosterone levels are low. As mentioned earlier your body will not start making it's own Testosterone again until all traces of exogenous Test is gone. So you HAVE to be prepared that you will drop to a Test level of 0...so you thought 16nmols felt low :-)

Anyway, when it is that low your Estrogen levels are in relation to Test, extremely high and out of balance. To avoid becoming a she-male you use Nolvadex or whatever to keep the Estrogen down during this period of time. Other PCT compounds like HCG will try and kick-start your own Test production...but most often people take stuff to keep the Estrogen levels down.

There's a start, that's roughly my understanding of things anyhoo...use Google and read about the HPTA function and read from all over the interweb and when you find common threads of understanding, that's usually the right information.

Here's some homework...find out why your balls shrink while taking exogenous testosterone :-)

all sunk in and understood now.. :-) thank you Android that was a very informative post..

[mrgeeky]

Hey MrG

Have a further read on cruising and blasting.

There's heaps of knowledge here or on overseas forums.

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/cruiseblast

I see it as a cheaper way to keep gains. PCT can be expensive and the recovery time means some of the gains go and your in a time where there's this strange down time. Being an older guy, there would be very little to lose by staying on, especially as your already on TRT/HRT which is your first cycle, so no dramas in adding extra or other compounds.

Cycling is mainly a health thing, so your not using so many things for a long period. I'll let the experienced guys chime in on that.

Proviron isnt really a PCT option, its a during cycle enhancement/preventative that controls estrogen, and frees up more available test.

Nizoral Shampoo? I want this in my life.

Hope that helps yo

EDIT. Android too quick!

another very informative post.. Im have now got a grasp on the basics..

I havent made the committement to be on HrT for life so at this stage there are times I am going to have to go through PCT.

as I dont want to lose the ability to ever be able to produce my own test.. Well not at this stage anyhow..

[Android]

errr the part about natural test not coming back is really reserved for the guys that take alot over a decent period of time and even then is rare long term. Everyone's different.

Someone who deserves to be on HRT (i.e. nmols < 10) prolly doesn't come off ever MrGeeky so they don't care. Being off is shit for them so why come off and make it shittier.

Sorry not meant to scare you re: permanent shut-down. I've never met anyone who has permanent shut-down tbh, but I do know a couple of guys that did long cycles and it took 6-12 months and HCG and other stuff for them to come back to normal levels.

My gut feel is the older you get the longer it takes your body to bounce back from anything, illness, hormone imbalance etc.

That's my gut feel, no proof, haven't even read about what I think, it's just younger bodies recover quicker so I assume it applies to gear.

[mrgeeky]

errr the part about natural test not coming back is really reserved for the guys that take alot over a decent period of time and even then is rare long term. Everyone's different.

Someone who deserves to be on HRT (i.e. nmols < 10) prolly doesn't come off ever MrGeeky so they don't care. Being off is shit for them so why come off and make it shittier.

Sorry not meant to scare you re: permanent shut-down. I've never met anyone who has permanent shut-down tbh, but I do know a couple of guys that did long cycles and it took 6-12 months and HCG and other stuff for them to come back to normal levels.

My gut feel is the older you get the longer it takes your body to bounce back from anything, illness, hormone imbalance etc.

That's my gut feel, no proof, haven't even read about what I think, it's just younger bodies recover quicker so I assume it applies to gear.

now understand this and it makes perfect sense to me...

[snoopy]

HCG and HMG are good drugs to help you bounce back if you've been on for a while as is Proviron.

Before I get flamed this is my reason for Proviron:

With Proviron treatment, sperm count can be increased, the quality improved and, furthermore, a higher fructose concentration up to normal values can be achieved thus increasing the chances of procreation.

Masteron has some interesting abilities to plump your nads back up too, but use the propionate version, not the Enanthate version, Enanthate version dosen't work as well.