Rep question.. .

[liquid_101]

just read this on simplyshredded.com :: http://www.simplyshredded.com/gym-class-the-top-10-most-common-training-mistakes-and-we-show-you-how-to-fix-them-2.html

Mistake #9 Going Too Low

The best range for muscle growth is 8-12 reps per set. Consistently doing 7 or fewer reps with heavier weights may feed your pride in the gym, but it won’t build as much muscle as moderate reps with moderate weights. A recent study found that when subjects used a weight that allowed them to complete 25-30 reps per set, they increased muscle protein synthesis (the process that leads to muscle growth) by 60% more than when they did sets with a weight that limited them to 4 reps. What’s more, going too heavy often leads to truncated reps. This is especially true of leg presses. It’s likely you can use more metal with this exercise than any other.

This stokes your ego, and because the guy before you used 900 for six half-reps instead of 600 for 12 full reps, you want to crank out 900-pound partials, too. Resist this urge. More reps and better form with a lighter weight will build more mass.

Research

A recent study from Italy found that when subjects did dumbbell shoulder presses with half-reps or three-quarter reps, they did not use nearly as much deltoid muscle fibers as they did when they did full reps. Using more muscle fibers during an exercise will make that muscle bigger. Even when training for power, the fewer reps you do, the harder it is to eke out another one and thus make consistent gains.

Solutions

Do movements from full stretches to full contractions. Carefully control the negative half of reps.

Keep the reps of most sets in the 8-12 range.

Focus on your muscles contracting, not the weight moving.

confused a little. i thought maximum hypertrophy was caused at low reps with heavier weight? isn't the first 1-45 seconds of an exercise classed as anabolic, then 45+ anaerobic? knew you guys could explain / sort out.. .

[Mrbig]

Why not 9-13 what makes 8-12 so special not everyone will do that amount of reps at the exact same speed so everyones muscles will be under tension for different amounts of time

Muscles cant count just lift heavy get consistently stronger eat heaps and you will grow what will determin how big you get is your genetics and if you use drugs or not but even then you will only put on so much muscle until you need to take some extreme measures

Arnold volume trainer = Mr olympia

Dorian Heavy single set trainer = Mr olympia

you decide which way you like to train

[Shutupandsquat]

just read this on simplyshredded.com

enough said

[Username]

Interesting how when they see a study saying 25-30 reps has 60% higher muscle protein synthesis than 0-4 reps they decide 8-12 reps are somehow the best number of reps.

I agree with deciding how you like to train... within reason though (not too low) if I lift my max for 3-5 reps for 3 sets I generally find that I can still go another 10 reps for 3 sets with a lower weight, which I think could indicate I didn't perform a high level of hypertrophy with that those first 3 sets.

[liquid_101]

Interesting how when they see a study saying 25-30 reps has 60% higher muscle protein synthesis than 0-4 reps they decide 8-12 reps are somehow the best number of reps

yeap confusion all around. i would have though 25-30 reps trains the muscle for endurance rather than strength? ahh who knows

[Riccardo]

Its not the amount of reps you do but tension created in the muscle fibers which cause them to grow.To understand how it works you need to know a little bit about how your body actually lifts weight.

In order to lift a load your brain sends a signal to your muscle to contract, the signal is carried by nerve cells called motor neurons, motor neurons innervate (excite) groups of muscle fibers within the muscle lifting the load. One motor neuron and all the fibers it innervates is called a motor unit.

Now as you lift heavier and heavier weights the number of motor units you recruit increases until you have recruited all the motor units available at about 80% 1RM (80% of your 1 rep max), this essentially means all the muscle fibers in your muscle are contracting. This process is called summation. At lighter loads only enough motor units are activated to lift the weight, it makes no sense to recruit all the fibers if only a few are able to do the job! When the weight is increased over 80% of your 1RM you aren't increasing the number of motor units but you increase their rate of firing, this process is called rate coding. The increased frequency of motor units firing causes an increase in force generation by the muscle. This is shown in the crude graph I've drawn below lol:

The blue line represents the force of contraction of the muscle and the red line indicates the number of motor units recruited, you can see as the number of motor units recruited (summation) reaches a plateau the force generation still increases due to rate coding (shaded green).

As you approach the end of a set and you begin to fatigue/the weight becomes harder to lift, larger motor units are recruited and these tend to have the greatest potential for growth. Larger motor units are activated when large amounts of tension are created in the muscle SO in order to recruit these larger motor units from the start of a set you need to start with a weight that is hard enough to warrant using them. Turns out that this occurs at approximately the weight you can perform for a maximum of 8 reps. So we have 8 reps at the high end of the scale but whats the low end of the scale? i.e. whats the lowest we can go with heavy weight to create protein synthesis and growth?

Well since at 80% of your 1RM, you have effectively recruited all your motor units, anything above that just means you are training your nervous system to increase its firing frequency (rate coding) and strengthening the connection between the nerves and muscle. 80% of your 1RM is approximately equal to the weight which you can lift for a maximum of 5 times. Therefore the lower limit is around 5 reps.

Fiber type also plays a role in determining appropriate rep ranges, although as a general rule, larger motor units are activated as the weight increases/becomes heavier at the end of a set, different muscles have different ratios of large fast twitch fibers to smaller slow twitch fibers. For example the Quads have a higher proportion of slow twitch fibers which is why they respond to slightly higher rep ranges because the majority of fibers will be activated at a lower degree of tension. Conversely the hamstrings are predominantly fast twitch fibers which are activated by larger motor units and therefore a heavier weight must be applied to reach the limit of summation.

Having said that, working in all rep ranges has its benefits, for example lower rep ranges will increase strength and carry over to hypertrophy as you body becomes better at lifting heavier loads, more load can be used in the hypertrophy rep range to get better gains. Likewise higher rep ranges increase the hypertrophy of non-contractile parts of the muscle cell and increase the muscles ability to remove waste products and withstand fatigue.

[HarryB]

Its not the amount of reps you do but tension created in the muscle fibers which cause them to grow.To understand how it works you need to know a little bit about how your body actually lifts weight.

In order to lift a load your brain sends a signal to your muscle to contract, the signal is carried by nerve cells called motor neurons, motor neurons innervate (excite) groups of muscle fibers within the muscle lifting the load. One motor neuron and all the fibers it innervates is called a motor unit.

Now as you lift heavier and heavier weights the number of motor units you recruit increases until you have recruited all the motor units available at about 80% 1RM (80% of your 1 rep max), this essentially means all the muscle fibers in your muscle are contracting. This process is called summation. At lighter loads only enough motor units are activated to lift the weight, it makes no sense to recruit all the fibers if only a few are able to do the job! When the weight is increased over 80% of your 1RM you aren't increasing the number of motor units but you increase their rate of firing, this process is called rate coding. The increased frequency of motor units firing causes an increase in force generation by the muscle. This is shown in the crude graph I've drawn below lol:

The blue line represents the force of contraction of the muscle and the red line indicates the number of motor units recruited, you can see as the number of motor units recruited (summation) reaches a plateau the force generation still increases due to rate coding (shaded green).

As you approach the end of a set and you begin to fatigue/the weight becomes harder to lift, larger motor units are recruited and these tend to have the greatest potential for growth. Larger motor units are activated when large amounts of tension are created in the muscle SO in order to recruit these larger motor units from the start of a set you need to start with a weight that is hard enough to warrant using them. Turns out that this occurs at approximately the weight you can perform for a maximum of 8 reps. So we have 8 reps at the high end of the scale but whats the low end of the scale? i.e. whats the lowest we can go with heavy weight to create protein synthesis and growth?

Well since at 80% of your 1RM, you have effectively recruited all your motor units, anything above that just means you are training your nervous system to increase its firing frequency (rate coding) and strengthening the connection between the nerves and muscle. 80% of your 1RM is approximately equal to the weight which you can lift for a maximum of 5 times. Therefore the lower limit is around 5 reps.

Fiber type also plays a role in determining appropriate rep ranges, although as a general rule, larger motor units are activated as the weight increases/becomes heavier at the end of a set, different muscles have different ratios of large fast twitch fibers to smaller slow twitch fibers. For example the Quads have a higher proportion of slow twitch fibers which is why they respond to slightly higher rep ranges because the majority of fibers will be activated at a lower degree of tension. Conversely the hamstrings are predominantly fast twitch fibers which are activated by larger motor units and therefore a heavier weight must be applied to reach the limit of summation.

Having said that, working in all rep ranges has its benefits, for example lower rep ranges will increase strength and carry over to hypertrophy as you body becomes better at lifting heavier loads, more load can be used in the hypertrophy rep range to get better gains. Likewise higher rep ranges increase the hypertrophy of non-contractile parts of the muscle cell and increase the muscles ability to remove waste products and withstand fatigue.

This has made me completely rethink my whole training strategy....

[Riccardo]

How so bro? From the looks of your journal you train around that same rep range..5-12 reps?

[HarryB]

How so bro? From the looks of your journal you train around that same rep range..5-12 reps?

Just taking the piss really, it's interesting reading but not much more than a complicated way of explaining a simple concept.

[Riccardo]

Lol you are one cheeky kunt mate. A simple concept because you already know what rep ranges suit you best.. I'm just bored :pfft:

[HarryB]

Lol you are one cheeky kunt mate. A simple concept because you already know what rep ranges suit you best.. I'm just bored :pfft:

Well actually I guess what can be taken from the lovely graph is that you have to apply stress to the muscle.. the assumption is always that that is the case but when you take into account form things change. So in a perfect world the graph applies... but in gyms all around the world guys are firing every other muscle fibre but the one they are trying to exhaust...

Yes sometimes I am a little cheeky... :shifty:

[train hard]

Why not 9-13 what makes 8-12 so special not everyone will do that amount of reps at the exact same speed so everyones muscles will be under tension for different amounts of time

Muscles cant count just lift heavy get consistently stronger eat heaps and you will grow what will determin how big you get is your genetics and if you use drugs or not but even then you will only put on so much muscle until you need to take some extreme measures

Arnold volume trainer = Mr olympia

Dorian Heavy single set trainer = Mr olympia

you decide which way you like to train

strong this^

[Android]

You guys can do 9 - 13 reps, if u do 9 it means you've done 8 at least...the optimal number for growth and a happy number in Chinese too.

8 - 12 reps, and shame on u for thinking outside of that range :naughty:

[Shutupandsquat]

Oh... working like an average guy... that's what I haven't been doing...

[whiterhyno]

Charles Poliquin is an awesome read on this topic

He preaches 8-12 for hypertrophy and 4-6 for strength in 4 week blocks for each

Makes sense but again its not so black and white as everyone responds differently and different muscles respond different also,

[HarryB]

Charles Poliquin is an awesome read on this topic

He preaches 8-12 for hypertrophy and 4-6 for strength in 4 week blocks for each

Makes sense but again its not so black and white as everyone responds differently and different muscles respond different also,

Yeah he has some very interesting concepts which make great sense. There's some really interesting to watch vids on flexonline with Polquin working with Ben Paluski, well worth a watch.

[vracula]

ok soooo sometimes which is better lactic burn or more muscle failure,where the muscle doesnt burn as much but too tired too lift.

[shane]

I'm changing my training going to try high reps and a lot of supersets, have always gone heavy but got some old injuries that niggle to much with heavy sets, so will try something different and see how things go. You never know unless you try eh.

[Pseudonym]

Somehow I missed this topic before. Riccardo, HarryB may have been taking the piss, but I liked your post. Knowing what rep range works is good enough, but it's interesting to know why it works as well. Thanks for posting.

[Dinahlady]

I think its more important to look at your training altogether rather than just at rep ranges. Things like plateaus etc or exercise form are more important for shaping your body than what it says on paper is best. (You may be doing 10 reps of say a hamstring exercise but if your form is horrific and you arent hitting the muscles you wanna hit any way is it really going to make much difference?)

Read up about periodization intensity vs volume etc generally online and there will be some theories behind beating plateaus etc and improving towards certain goals etc.

And its also to do with personal preferences. Personally I can't stand that kind of lactate burn feeling and can't push myself through it so anyhting above 10ish reps is pointless for me as I don't get to full fatigue cos I'm a pussy. Especially if I'm training on my own. However I can pull 6/7 reps to absolute failure so obviously I'm not gonna go "oh 12 is supposed to be better" and do that when I'm not training as hard or it doesn't work as well for me

Its also different for different body parts and usually I work through different rep ranges in one workout.

[Optimass]

I think its more important to look at your training altogether rather than just at rep ranges.

^^ this ...

Too many people get caught up on rep range ... FYI all resistance training grows muscle ... Some people respond better to high .. some to low. There is more premise in managing overall volume than think you are going to grow fast at 12 reps than someone doing 4 reps ...

I have done 2-6 reps predominantly over the last 10 years ... I am big ... I am strong ... thats all I care about.

Sometimes I do supersets ... sometimes I don't ... I am still big ... I am still strong.

Consistancy/Form/Set volume and intensity are all more important factors than the number itself IMO.

[Android]

I think its more important to look at your training altogether rather than just at rep ranges.

^^ this ...

Too many people get caught up on rep range ... FYI all resistance training grows muscle ... Some people respond better to high .. some to low. There is more premise in managing overall volume than think you are going to grow fast at 12 reps than someone doing 4 reps ...

I have done 2-6 reps predominantly over the last 10 years ... I am big ... I am strong ... thats all I care about.

Sometimes I do supersets ... sometimes I don't ... I am still big ... I am still strong. I am .... "The" Optimass

Consistancy/Form/Set volume and intensity are all more important factors than the number itself IMO.

:pfft: just seemed to fit

[Optimass]