bicep peak !!

[ravi1414]

had a quick question about bicep peak. yes it is genetics and i come from the family where everyone is thin ..i got a decent set of arms bascially cause of m triceps but when it comes to bicep peak, i dont have much .. ive seen skinny fells with good peak so iam guessing BF% also play some role but at the same time saw an bulk fella with good peak.

will i be one of those fella with less bicep peak all my life cause of my genetics or time changes everythin.

[vracula]

Genetics unfortunatley dictate muscle shape and muscle mass ,just go hard havent seen anyone with low bodyfat having flat biceps at 16 or 17 inches

[musclenz]

Forget normal bicep curls & start to work the brachialis muscle. This sits under the 2 bicep heads the bicep brachii (long & short heads). By targeting the brachialis you can pop up the other 2 heads. Heavy hammer curls are good for this as are close grip pulls palms facing out & facing together. Your cable rack may be fitted with these two grips. Also reverse curls with yr palms facing down on the straight or z bar.

[Shutupandsquat]

Just had a massive argument in my journal about this Pre-exhaust with an isolation movement. Not every workout, maybe very second. Just focus on the contraction at the top. You can pre-exhaust with preacher curls, it's what I like to do. You can search other ones.

Actually whilst you can't change the predetermined shape of a specific muscle what you can do is target different heads to make things appear more prominent. Otherwise we would all just do bench press for chest and think there was nothing specific we could do to change the imbalance because the bench hits every fibre blah blah blah Thanks Arthur Jones. However anecdotal evidence tells us different, hence the multitides of guys who use multiple angles for muscle groups in the hope that it changes the way those muscles appear in relation to one and other.

If you have biceps as flat as a pancake then probably never going to get the peak of a Flex Wheeler but you can optimise yours conversely if you accept you will have spaghetti arms then trust me... you will have spaghetti arms.

[Riccardo]

The two biceps heads run in the same plane though so targeting each one isn't gona really increase your peak but I get what you are saying. As MNZ said hitting brachiallis will push your biceps up making them look peakier, it is a hugely under worked muscle in people.

[HarryB]

The two biceps heads run in the same plane though so targeting each one isn't gona really increase your peak but I get what you are saying. As MNZ said hitting brachiallis will push your biceps up making them look peakier, it is a hugely under worked muscle in people.

The short head of the bicep is what creates most of the peak in your arm... they have the same insertion point but different origins. You can affect them differently up to a point.

As to the brachialis being neglected, every time you row or do chins or pulldowns your brachialis is the primary mover around the elbow joint.

My 2c... lol just train the fuckers and have big arms and save worrying about peak and stuff until you actually have some size on there.

[nate225]

http://www.hafiller.com/hafiller/257977.html

Problem solved..... as peaky as a pro!

:pfft: :grin: :pfft: :grin: :pfft: :grin: :pfft: :grin: :pfft: :grin:

[Riccardo]

The two biceps heads run in the same plane though so targeting each one isn't gona really increase your peak but I get what you are saying. As MNZ said hitting brachiallis will push your biceps up making them look peakier, it is a hugely under worked muscle in people.

The short head of the bicep is what creates most of the peak in your arm... they have the same insertion point but different origins. You can affect them differently up to a point. I guess what I was saying is how would you go about targeting the short head because they both run in the same plane, maybe allowing your bicep to be stretched to a point just before maximum elbow extension before contracting again i.e. doing partials? I assume this might work because they long head would take more stretch to have its fibers maximally activated.

As to the brachialis being neglected, every time you row or do chins or pulldowns your brachialis is the primary mover around the elbow joint.

Depends how you do them, as biceps is the main supinator a pronated grip would be more beneficial to brachialis development however if you are doing these exercises with a supinated grip then you might not be hitting them properly.

My 2c... lol just train the fuckers and have big arms and save worrying about peak and stuff until you actually have some size on there. LOL! this!! :pfft:

[nate225]

On another aside, guys who tear the proximal biceps tendon, tend to get very peaky biceps after they recover (no surgical intervention). Mostly long bicep head tears I believe.

Probably no application to the debate but thought I'd put it out there.

[HarryB]

The two biceps heads run in the same plane though so targeting each one isn't gona really increase your peak but I get what you are saying. As MNZ said hitting brachiallis will push your biceps up making them look peakier, it is a hugely under worked muscle in people.

The short head of the bicep is what creates most of the peak in your arm... they have the same insertion point but different origins. You can affect them differently up to a point. I guess what I was saying is how would you go about targeting the short head because they both run in the same plane, maybe allowing your bicep to be stretched to a point just before maximum elbow extension before contracting again i.e. doing partials? I assume this might work because they long head would take more stretch to have its fibers maximally activated.

As to the brachialis being neglected, every time you row or do chins or pulldowns your brachialis is the primary mover around the elbow joint.

Depends how you do them, as biceps is the main supinator a pronated grip would be more beneficial to brachialis development however if you are doing these exercises with a supinated grip then you might not be hitting them properly.

My 2c... lol just train the fuckers and have big arms and save worrying about peak and stuff until you actually have some size on there. LOL! this!! :pfft:

Ummm yeah ok. I was being a bit cheeky about the brachialis but you are kind of right. The brachialis is always the strongest muscle in the flexing of your upper arms because it's attachements are on either side of the elbow joint, therefore it is not weakened by having to travel across two joints irrespective of angle or supination or pronation.

Thank you and god bless.

[HarryB]

On another aside, guys who tear the proximal biceps tendon, tend to get very peaky biceps after they recover (no surgical intervention). Mostly long bicep head tears I believe.

Probably no application to the debate but thought I'd put it out there.

Probably a bit extreme as a measure for getting more peak ha ha ha ha ha

[vracula]

My 2c... lol just train the fuckers and have big arms and save worrying about peak and stuff until you actually have some size on there.

amen to that ,shouldnt be bothered about peaks if they havent hit 19 to 20 inches.

[I Declare War]

http://www.hafiller.com/hafiller/257977.html

Problem solved..... as peaky as a pro!

:pfft: :grin: :pfft: :grin: :pfft: :grin: :pfft: :grin: :pfft: :grin:

that was meant to be secret :cry: (not srs)

[I Declare War]

My 2c... lol just train the fuckers and have big arms and save worrying about peak and stuff until you actually have some size on there.

amen to that ,shouldnt be bothered about peaks if they havent hit 19 to 20 inches.

My thoughts also. Get them arms big first then worry/do something to correct.

[train hard]

heavy barbell curls in the squat rack for the win

[train hard]

nah but seriously i really like standing double arm overhead cable curls the one where it looks like your hitting a front double bicep pose with a single cable in each hand i really feel those in the peak don,t need to go to heavy just squezze at the top peak con traction and its also a good exercise to check out your guns in the mirror (little bit srs)

[thatwaslight]

On another aside, guys who tear the proximal biceps tendon, tend to get very peaky biceps after they recover (no surgical intervention). Mostly long bicep head tears I believe.

Probably no application to the debate but thought I'd put it out there.

brb tearing biceps on a dead to get fix my peak problem...srs

[Android]

nah but seriously i really like standing double arm overhead cable curls the one where it looks like your hitting a front double bicep pose with a single cable in each hand i really feel those in the peak don,t need to go to heavy just squezze at the top peak con traction and its also a good exercise to check out your guns in the mirror (little bit srs)

+10 :clap:

[Shutupandsquat]

...

:shifty:

BRB, tearing bicep

[FellowshipOfTheRon]

ravi dont worry about the skinny family genetics (indian here) its not actually a genetic fault more so the diet sucks. first of all your triceps are growing nicely right? but you say biceps are not peaking? are they increasing in strength at least, for example are you trying to lift slightly more every now and then on the barbell curls?

i also suspected genetics at beginning and just blamed them but you must realise that your arms probably have so much more capacity for growth so there is no reason you cannot build some mountains. just so we can have an idea of what type of biceps you got, when you flex your bicep (90 degree angle elbow) how many fingers can you fit between the gap on elbows?

below is just what helped me with my peak problems, im by no means more experienced than the other guys here & dont mean to contradict anything they say! just sharing my experience

-----

what really helped me to help develop the biceps size in general as well as peaks at same time is seated db concentration curls. most of the time i will have couple sets where i do 10~12 reps with moderate weight then try for 4~6 with the heaviest dumbell i can handle, always making sure to sqeeze at the top and lower slowly, going all the way to get that full stretch on bicep. at some point i will have to force the weight up with my opposing hand and then lower it VERY slowly with the working arm. if i still got energy at the end, i'll do the '21s' exercise - using close grip on an ezy curl bar to deliver the final blow to the biceps.

from time to time i feel like i got weaker or find it too hard to push for intended reps or increase weights so i make sure that the next session i do drop sets seated in incline bench. its not even the same exercise as normal and i dont even know why i do it on incline bench besides that it helps me gain the strength i need to push further on my next workout.

---

[nate225]

...

:shifty:

BRB, tearing bicep

LOL - just make sure you tear the proximal attachment not the distal, otherwise they'll just look short and no more peaky! :pfft: :grin:

[Shutupandsquat]

tactically tearing the muscle

[musclenz]

The short head of the bicep is what creates most of the peak in your arm... they have the same insertion point but different origins. You can affect them differently up to a point. I guess what I was saying is how would you go about targeting the short head because they both run in the same plane, maybe allowing your bicep to be stretched to a point just before maximum elbow extension before contracting again i.e. doing partials? I assume this might work because they long head would take more stretch to have its fibers maximally activated.

As to the brachialis being neglected, every time you row or do chins or pulldowns your brachialis is the primary mover around the elbow joint.

Depends how you do them, as biceps is the main supinator a pronated grip would be more beneficial to brachialis development however if you are doing these exercises with a supinated grip then you might not be hitting them properly.

My 2c... lol just train the fuckers and have big arms and save worrying about peak and stuff until you actually have some size on there. LOL! this!! :pfft:

Ummm yeah ok. I was being a bit cheeky about the brachialis but you are kind of right. The brachialis is always the strongest muscle in the flexing of your upper arms because it's attachements are on either side of the elbow joint, therefore it is not weakened by having to travel across two joints irrespective of angle or supination or pronation.

Thank you and god bless.

Don't agree Harry. Not on its own its not. It is in conjunction with the Brachioradialis but not on its own as an upper arm muscle. If it was the strongest it woul be the biggest in most cases but it isn't.

"In mathmatical terms, and as I have stated the distance multiplied by the sine of the angle of application is the MA. Say you have a distance of 10 centimeters in two situations. In situation A, the angle of application is 25 degrees, while in situatuon B the angle of application is 60 degrees. The equation to solve these problems is as follows:

A. 10 xs Sin( 25 ) = 2.11 cm for the moment arm

B. 10 xs Sin( 60 ) = 8.67cm for the moment arm

Let’s apply this to a muscle:

1. The further the insertion point is from the axis of rotation, the greater the distance and, therefore, the greater the moment arm. This translates to a greater Moment, Moment Force, or Torque.

2. Think of the arrows above as being fixed, like the biceps tendon is fixed. The fixed point is the attachment site. Now, as you move your arm, the "angle of application" changes. Think of the angle of application changing in a similar manner to how the arrow changed its direction in the last illustration, as compared to the illustration that was at 90 degrees. Thus, we realize that how much, or how little your forearm is flexed (in degrees), will directly effect the "size" of the moment arm and, with it, the magnitude of Torque produced. Dr. Murray and Dr. Delp confirmed this in the journal of Biomechanics by stating the following:

"Flexion/extension and pronation/supination moment arms of the brachioradialis, biceps, brachialis, pronator teres, and triceps were calculated from measurements of tendon displacement and joint angle in two anatomic specimens and were estimated using a computer model of the elbow joint. The anatomical measurements revealed that the flexion/extension moment arms varied by at least 30% over a 95 degrees range of motion. The changes in flexion/extension moment arm magnitudes with elbow flexion angle were represented well by the computer model (49)."

Moment Arm Also Effects Joint Movement

Vital Concepts Outlined:

· The greater the length of the moment arm, the greater the force production of a muscle.

· The smaller the length of the moment arm, the greater an angle will be over a given distance, relative to the amount of shortening a muscle will go through. Thus, if muscle A has a longer moment arm than Muscle B, it will have to shorten more to move a joint through 30 degrees than muscle B does to create the same angle.

The second statement seems confusing, but it is actually fairly simple. Recall that rotation carves out a circle. A smaller moment arm would carve out a smaller circle, while a larger moment arm would carve out a larger circle. Check it out:

The figure represents a diagrammatical scheme of the arm (upper line) and the forearm (the line at a 90 degree angle to the arm). The arrows represent the direction of force, and the blue sphere represents the axis, where the joint formed between the humerus and forearm bones takes place. Notice how the muscle with the smaller moment arm is able to move the forearm through just as large of an angle as the muscle with the longer moment arm, yet not move as long a distance.

Therefore, we can conclude that a muscle with a longer moment arm is better suited to produce a larger torque, whereas one with a smaller moment arm can produce a larger angular movement with less distance. The former is suited for gross and powerful movements, while the latter is more suited to a greater range of motion. The elbow requires both of these, and such concepts will help you to understand why muscles are attached certain ways and what their main function might be.

The following conclusions of moment arms for elbow flexion were derived from van Zuylen , van Velzen , van der Gon (1988), Murray , Delp , Buchanan (1995), and Murray , Buchanan , Delp (2000).

Magnitude of Moment arms

1. The Brachioradialis has the largest.

2. The Biceps Brachii is in second place.

3. The Brachialis comes in third.

4. The Pronator teres has the smallest MA.

As stated, however, moment arms peak at a certain level of elbow flexion (49, 76, 48,55). Here is a breakdown:

Peaks of Moment Arms

1. The brachioradialis peaks at approximately 90 degrees of elbow flexion (49, 76, 48, 55).

2. The biceps brachii peaks also at approximately 90 degrees of elbow flexion, and has been shown to vary up to 110 degrees of elbow flexion (49, 76, 48, 55). Recall that the elbow has been shown to flex at an average of 135-150 degrees of flexion (30, 31, 62, 63).

3. The brachialis peaks at approximately 100 degrees of flexion, and up to 120 in some individuals (49, 76, 48, 55).

4. The pronator teres peaks at approximately 75-80 degrees (49, 76, 48, 55. )

In conclusion, the Lever arms of the elbow flexors peak at the top range of motion. For the three larger muscles it peaks between 90 and 120 degrees, and including all muscles at 75-120 degrees. Thus, if we only analyze this aspect of torque, the greatest moment is realized at this range of motion. However, we know that force of contraction is also key to producing torque. We must therefore analyze each muscle’s force production capabilities before making absolute conclusions."

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine ... wpart2.htm

1998-2001 ABC Bodybuilding Company

[Riccardo]

Ummm yeah ok. I was being a bit cheeky about the brachialis but you are kind of right. The brachialis is always the strongest muscle in the flexing of your upper arms because it's attachements are on either side of the elbow joint, therefore it is not weakened by having to travel across two joints irrespective of angle or supination or pronation.

Thank you and god bless.

Don't agree Harry. Not on its own its not. It is in conjunction with the Brachioradialis but not on its own as an upper arm muscle. If it was the strongest it woul be the biggest in most cases but it isn't.

"In mathmatical terms, and as I have stated the distance multiplied by the sine of the angle of application is the MA. Say you have a distance of 10 centimeters in two situations. In situation A, the angle of application is 25 degrees, while in situatuon B the angle of application is 60 degrees. The equation to solve these problems is as follows:

A. 10 xs Sin( 25 ) = 2.11 cm for the moment arm

B. 10 xs Sin( 60 ) = 8.67cm for the moment arm

Let’s apply this to a muscle:

1. The further the insertion point is from the axis of rotation, the greater the distance and, therefore, the greater the moment arm. This translates to a greater Moment, Moment Force, or Torque.

2. Think of the arrows above as being fixed, like the biceps tendon is fixed. The fixed point is the attachment site. Now, as you move your arm, the "angle of application" changes. Think of the angle of application changing in a similar manner to how the arrow changed its direction in the last illustration, as compared to the illustration that was at 90 degrees. Thus, we realize that how much, or how little your forearm is flexed (in degrees), will directly effect the "size" of the moment arm and, with it, the magnitude of Torque produced. Dr. Murray and Dr. Delp confirmed this in the journal of Biomechanics by stating the following:

"Flexion/extension and pronation/supination moment arms of the brachioradialis, biceps, brachialis, pronator teres, and triceps were calculated from measurements of tendon displacement and joint angle in two anatomic specimens and were estimated using a computer model of the elbow joint. The anatomical measurements revealed that the flexion/extension moment arms varied by at least 30% over a 95 degrees range of motion. The changes in flexion/extension moment arm magnitudes with elbow flexion angle were represented well by the computer model (49)."

Moment Arm Also Effects Joint Movement

Vital Concepts Outlined:

· The greater the length of the moment arm, the greater the force production of a muscle.

· The smaller the length of the moment arm, the greater an angle will be over a given distance, relative to the amount of shortening a muscle will go through. Thus, if muscle A has a longer moment arm than Muscle B, it will have to shorten more to move a joint through 30 degrees than muscle B does to create the same angle.

The second statement seems confusing, but it is actually fairly simple. Recall that rotation carves out a circle. A smaller moment arm would carve out a smaller circle, while a larger moment arm would carve out a larger circle. Check it out:

The figure represents a diagrammatical scheme of the arm (upper line) and the forearm (the line at a 90 degree angle to the arm). The arrows represent the direction of force, and the blue sphere represents the axis, where the joint formed between the humerus and forearm bones takes place. Notice how the muscle with the smaller moment arm is able to move the forearm through just as large of an angle as the muscle with the longer moment arm, yet not move as long a distance.

Therefore, we can conclude that a muscle with a longer moment arm is better suited to produce a larger torque, whereas one with a smaller moment arm can produce a larger angular movement with less distance. The former is suited for gross and powerful movements, while the latter is more suited to a greater range of motion. The elbow requires both of these, and such concepts will help you to understand why muscles are attached certain ways and what their main function might be.

The following conclusions of moment arms for elbow flexion were derived from van Zuylen , van Velzen , van der Gon (1988), Murray , Delp , Buchanan (1995), and Murray , Buchanan , Delp (2000).

Magnitude of Moment arms

1. The Brachioradialis has the largest.

2. The Biceps Brachii is in second place.

3. The Brachialis comes in third.

4. The Pronator teres has the smallest MA.

As stated, however, moment arms peak at a certain level of elbow flexion (49, 76, 48,55). Here is a breakdown:

Peaks of Moment Arms

1. The brachioradialis peaks at approximately 90 degrees of elbow flexion (49, 76, 48, 55).

2. The biceps brachii peaks also at approximately 90 degrees of elbow flexion, and has been shown to vary up to 110 degrees of elbow flexion (49, 76, 48, 55). Recall that the elbow has been shown to flex at an average of 135-150 degrees of flexion (30, 31, 62, 63).

3. The brachialis peaks at approximately 100 degrees of flexion, and up to 120 in some individuals (49, 76, 48, 55).

4. The pronator teres peaks at approximately 75-80 degrees (49, 76, 48, 55. )

In conclusion, the Lever arms of the elbow flexors peak at the top range of motion. For the three larger muscles it peaks between 90 and 120 degrees, and including all muscles at 75-120 degrees. Thus, if we only analyze this aspect of torque, the greatest moment is realized at this range of motion. However, we know that force of contraction is also key to producing torque. We must therefore analyze each muscle’s force production capabilities before making absolute conclusions."

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine ... wpart2.htm

1998-2001 ABC Bodybuilding Company

[HarryB]

Ok sweet, that's cleared me right up LOL