No Pain = No Gain ???

[wahagirl]

Hey fellow Lifters,

I was wondering what your advice is regarding the topic?

I read/heard that if I am not feeling "sore" the day or two after a weight training session, that i may not be getting any gains or strength increase.

What's your opinion?

I don't always feel sore after my workouts and am starting to wonder if i am pushing my self hard enough and may need to book a session with the PT to assess.

Any constructive comments are welcome.

P.S. One bonus is I am losing fat

Happy lifting guys

[tomsammce]

Progression isn't determined by soreness or doms.

No pain no gain in the gym though.

[crazyfacials]

there are a few posts here about DOMS (the soreness you feel after) lots of things can effect it inc diet/stretching etc + the stuff that Tom said

[Danomyte]

Agree with Tom's and CF's suggestions.

I like "No Brain = No Gain".

You'll find that there are a lot of cerebral trainers/athletes on this website. Have a look at their training in the workout journals section.

Plenty guys/girls will follow a plan, that may give them different benefits at different times. Also, they will be able to measure their progress as they execute their plan and are able to modify accordingly.

My answer to your question is to not use soreness as the only factor to mark your progress. Planning your training so that you can measure your progress based on the numbers being lifted is the way to go.

I find that my body lies to me, where I may feel good but lift like crap or feel like crap but smash a PB lol. So having a measurable plan will help give me consistent feedback.

Hope this helps

Good work on the fat loss :clap:

[I Declare War]

Agree with Tom's and CF's suggestions.

I like "No Brain = No Gain".

You'll find that there are a lot of cerebral trainers/athletes on this website. Have a look at their training in the workout journals section.

Plenty guys/girls will follow a plan, that may give them different benefits at different times. Also, they will be able to measure their progress as they execute their plan and are able to modify accordingly.

My answer to your question is to not use soreness as the only factor to mark your progress. Planning your training so that you can measure your progress based on the numbers being lifted is the way to go.

I find that my body lies to me, where I may feel good but lift like crap or feel like crap but smash a PB lol. So having a measurable plan will help give me consistent feedback.

Hope this helps

Good work on the fat loss :clap:

Great post there Danomyte. It's all about the numbers and measuring your progress over time.

Train consistently with effort and you'll see progress. You don't need to feel sore in the days after training to make great progress. If you find you're training a muscle that's still sore from the last session, you should stay away from the gym until you feel recovered. You can also tinker with your workouts by decreasing the volume of your training and increasing the intensity - this will allow you to train more frequently.

[teamfatboy]

Good posts from Danomyte and IDW :clap:

Once you get past beginner levels, DOMS isn't a reliable gauge of intensity, because of the body's ability to adapt.

That's different from injury pain - but you knew that...

Pick a training plan, and then take careful notes about the weights x sets x reps, aiming to progress carefully.

One of the principles of programmes like the Madcow Powerlifting regime is linear progress. Each that Friday finishes with a top set of 3, which becomes the weight for top sets of 5 the following Monday. Sticking to an approach like that may help. If your goal is hypertrophy, you might want to up the rep-range, but the same principle of linear progress will still hold good.

[tomsammce]

Idw - there is nothing wrong or disadvantageous training a muscle that is suffering from doms. I do this all the time with full body routines and CF training. It's not a sign of overtraining and you can still gain/progress

[runveerun]

Idw - there is nothing wrong or disadvantageous training a muscle that is suffering from doms. I do this all the time with full body routines and CF training. It's not a sign of overtraining and you can still gain/progress

I agree, in fact I find if my muscles are particularly sore from from say squatting the best thing for them is to go and do more squatting or a exercise using similar muscles it pushes more blood into the muscle and any pain subsides.

[I Declare War]

OP, If you are very serious with your training it is very important to skirt the edges of overtraining. I usually do feel sore in the days after my training sessions as well but I have made a good routine for myself where I train cardio and other bodyparts to balance my body out while parts recover from training.

If you aren't getting DOMS from time to time then you are likely not training at your limits. I myself do use it as an indicator that I am training hard but... I also don't come back to the gym and train that part until it has fully recovered.

Idw - there is nothing wrong or disadvantageous training a muscle that is suffering from doms. I do this all the time with full body routines and CF training. It's not a sign of overtraining and you can still gain/progress

I agree, in fact I find if my muscles are particularly sore from from say squatting the best thing for them is to go and do more squatting or a exercise using similar muscles it pushes more blood into the muscle and any pain subsides.

runveerun, while yes, your point may be true that that alleviates the pain ... that doesn't mean that it's the best way to make gains. Don't confuse the two.

I disagree with you tomsammce. If you've still got DOMS in a muscle when you come back around to train that part... it just means you've devised a shitty training routine or that you're sick and not recovering well.... or that...

You're an advanced lifter with specific strength goals... the OP doesn't fall into that category.

inb4 drizzt. 8)

[Optimass]

I disagree with you tomsammce. If you've still got DOMS in a muscle when you come back around to train that part... it just means you've devised a shitty training routine or that you're sick and not recovering well.... or that...

You're an advanced lifter with specific strength goals... the OP doesn't fall into that category.

inb4 drizzt. 8)

disagree bro. In the past if I couldnt mame a client in one of my sessions for 2-3 days afterward, Id fell like I hadnt given them enough for their money.

Using DOMS as a measure for exercise routine is hit and miss - but if you use it to guage how quickly your body is adapting to specific routines and intensity its good.

Sometimes you get looped into training the same routine workouts and them you change out one exercise and, wham' DOMS in a smaller muscle that was affected as a result of hitting it from a different angle.

[tinytraps]

http://www.myosynthesis.com/pain-virtue ... ngth-gains

I feel this article links in nicely with the subject.

I dont really believe in the whole overtraining deal anymore. If you apply a stress to the body it will adapt accordingly.

[I Declare War]

I disagree with you tomsammce. If you've still got DOMS in a muscle when you come back around to train that part... it just means you've devised a shitty training routine or that you're sick and not recovering well.... or that...

You're an advanced lifter with specific strength goals... the OP doesn't fall into that category.

inb4 drizzt. 8)

disagree bro. In the past if I couldnt mame a client in one of my sessions for 2-3 days afterward, Id fell like I hadnt given them enough for their money.

Using DOMS as a measure for exercise routine is hit and miss - but if you use it to guage how quickly your body is adapting to specific routines and intensity its good.

Sometimes you get looped into training the same routine workouts and them you change out one exercise and, wham' DOMS in a smaller muscle that was affected as a result of hitting it from a different angle.

I agree with the second and third paragraphs there Optimass. That's all common sense and logical and a good addition to this thread.

No idea what you mean with that first paragraph, can you elaborate?

[I Declare War]

http://www.myosynthesis.com/pain-virtue-muscle-strength-gains

I feel this article links in nicely with the subject.

I dont really believe in the whole overtraining deal anymore. If you apply a stress to the body it will adapt accordingly.

Keep in mind that the amount of stress that the body can adapt to is limited. Overtraining is simply training at a level above your recovery ability for a prolonged period of time.

You can not argue that overtraining is not real.

Periods of overreaching via overtraining can be beneficial to your training. But it needs to be periodised.

[Danomyte]

Lots of good input here.

Periods of overreaching via overtraining can be beneficial to your training. But it needs to be periodised.

Yeah man, totally agree.

Getting the periodisation right is something we all try to achieve aye. Sometimes we get it right, which is awesome. Sometimes we don't get it right, but it makes the journey well worthwhile when we look back on our training and we are able to find success/progress in other areas we didn't expect.

I digress :doh: Back on topic

[tinytraps]

http://www.myosynthesis.com/pain-virtue-muscle-strength-gains

I feel this article links in nicely with the subject.

I dont really believe in the whole overtraining deal anymore. If you apply a stress to the body it will adapt accordingly.

Keep in mind that the amount of stress that the body can adapt to is limited. Overtraining is simply training at a level above your recovery ability for a prolonged period of time.

You can not argue that overtraining is not real.

Periods of overreaching via overtraining can be beneficial to your training. But it needs to be periodised.

I agree but I dont think the majority of gym goers train at volumes and intensities to induce true overtraining. What most people experience is just staleness (as described by Zatsiorsky) if your weights are constantly going down and even routine physical tasks become a burden then you are in a true overtrained state.

Otherwise we can sum up this part with a quote from the barbarian brothers "there is no such thing as overtraining. Just under eating and under sleeping" :grin:

[Wookie]

I rarely get DOMS.

/undertrained.

[Riccardo]

"f*ck overtraining, i think a certain amount of overtraining is good. In order to saturate your muscles with feeling and build the necessary neurological connections." -Kai Greene

But seriously I think most people train no where near intense enough for long enough to over train. You will know when you have been over training, if you have to ask you aren't.

[runveerun]

OP, If you are very serious with your training it is very important to skirt the edges of overtraining. I usually do feel sore in the days after my training sessions as well but I have made a good routine for myself where I train cardio and other bodyparts to balance my body out while parts recover from training.

runveerun, while yes, your point may be true that that alleviates the pain ... that doesn't mean that it's the best way to make gains. Don't confuse the two.

It is totally individual. It depends on the persons goals and fitness/strength levels. It is VERY difficult to over train and if you want to be good at lifting you have to consistantly lift DOMS or not. I would rather be in the gym lifting than doing cardio for recovery I personally find lifting helps me recover from lifting. I do not understand when you say that lifting is not the best way to make gains. Surely cardio is not the best way to make gains?

[I Declare War]

OP, If you are very serious with your training it is very important to skirt the edges of overtraining. I usually do feel sore in the days after my training sessions as well but I have made a good routine for myself where I train cardio and other bodyparts to balance my body out while parts recover from training.

runveerun, while yes, your point may be true that that alleviates the pain ... that doesn't mean that it's the best way to make gains. Don't confuse the two.

It is totally individual. It depends on the persons goals and fitness/strength levels. It is VERY difficult to over train and if you want to be good at lifting you have to consistantly lift DOMS or not. I would rather be in the gym lifting than doing cardio for recovery I personally find lifting helps me recover from lifting. I do not understand when you say that lifting is not the best way to make gains. Surely cardio is not the best way to make gains?

I'd have to say that I do not agree that it is very difficult to overtrain. Think of it as a spectrum where on one end you have slight overtraining, then medium overtraining, then right at the end total overtraining. It is very easy to fall in the slight overtraining zone, in that part of the spectrum the subject would still be making gains but the gains are somewhat held back because of the inefficient nature of the routine. Medium overtraining would be where you're not making any progress or regress - you're just stuck at the same level of fitness/strength/size - whatever your goal is. Total overtraining is also possible, some bodybuilders have induced kidney failure due to excessive training because of Rhabdomyolysis.

Sorry to write out a big story there, but I'm just trying to paint a picture so that you can see where I'm coming from. I agree that if you want to be at the top of your game you have to lift whether you have DOMS or not... but what I'm saying is... find another bodypart to train instead and wait till the DOMS subsides before hitting that bodypart again. You'll build a much better balanced physique.

And I don't agree that hitting a bodypart while it's got DOMS just because it's got DOMS because doing that exercise at that time makes that bodypart feel better is a good argument. If my quads are sore with DOMS I don't need to squat again to achieve that effect... I can hop on a stationary bike an do some light cardio on them and they'll feel just fine again.

It's all in the numbers tho runveerun, if you find torturing yourself gives you the numbers the best way...then by all means... train that way.

I've kind of fallen into the trap of arguing in the powerlifting forum... you guys have a limited selection of exercises to choose from. lol

[runveerun]

find another bodypart to train instead and wait till the DOMS subsides before hitting that bodypart again. You'll build a much better balanced physique.

This is the powerlifting section, we don't train body parts we train the lift. Not in it for a balanced physique either!

I've kind of fallen into the trap of arguing in the powerlifting forum... you guys have a limited selection of exercises to choose from. lol

Yep, PLing training is different to BBing training 8)