RELIGION

[maassive]

The point is science proves that what the bible says is untrue. If you believe the bible you are believing a lie, regardless of wether it's a good or bad thing it doesn't change the fact it's a lie. Much like Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

I'd just rather live in the real world

Please explain. Examples?

Examples of what? How science disproves what the bible says? Try creationism?

Actually brb it was Satan that put dinosaur bones in the ground to try and trick us

Strawman arugment mate. Nobody (sane) really believes that.

It is actually an extremist point of view to argue that science proves the bible wrong so end of story. There are various ways of reading the bible, and most reasonably intelligent christian folk would hold the bible as a religious text, not a science text and so read as such. So in the example of creation, one could read that as a story/myth that explains an aspect of life (the relationship between God/Humans/Universe) rather than a literal explanation of the origins of the universe - which I'll add, Moses sure-as-f*ck didn't have a clue about.

[severe]

There were many religions before Christ that worked on the same structure. It is a winning business/meme model.

virgin births

rising again

they failed when the new ones took over.

The Catholics pushed Christ further and wider, and the rest is history. But history is written by the victor, so can't be trusted as 100% reliable. People lie. People in power lie more, in order to maintain the way. Lying, in order to trap more lost souls must surely be seen as a standard ploy. Just as in politics.

Christ wasn't even into church as far as I can see. Big difference between 'Christ-like" and a Christian. walk teh walk vs talk the talk.

[maassive]

There were many religions before Christ that worked on the same structure. It is a winning business/meme model.

virgin births

rising again

they failed when the new ones took over.

The Catholics pushed Christ further and wider, and the rest is history. But history is written by the victor, so can't be trusted as 100% reliable. People lie. People in power lie more, in order to maintain the way. Lying, in order to trap more lost souls must surely be seen as a standard ploy. Just as in politics.

Christ wasn't even into church as far as I can see. Big difference between 'Christ-like" and a Christian. walk teh walk vs talk the talk.

+1

[Mike Zero]

Shit I don't understand the maths behind all the physics I mean how many people really do? I always argued against the logic of religions like christianity but that was before I figured out that arguing logic against faith doesn't work. I also got a bit older and started thinking like Nate which is if people are good people and are happy believing something I should let them be I don't want to be a prick and at the end of the day it's impossible to prove yourself absolutely right. Arguing is a waste of time lol.

Although that said I will still voice my opinion of things like the idea of karma lol.

My thoughts exactly, as expressed by my post in Tom's journal. I just can't stand those biggot loud-mouth religous types, just like I can't stand those elitist "atheists" who think they are so much more intelligent because they watched a psuedo-documentary or two.

[Mike Zero]

Personally, I don't see why creationism and evolution can't co-exist.

The idea that some deity created the universe to me is just as realistic as any other theory about how the universe began. I believe that a creator could have set in play the laws of the universe and the potential for life and then sent us on our way. Then eventually comes the evolution of man as dictated by Darwin.

Where Christianity falls down IMO is that they take the bible too literally as the word of god, when as we know, the pen was put to paper by men - men who lived in relatively simple times with very little understanding of our universe compared to today. Whatever word god spoke unto them had to be filtered through their puny brains first. Whatever complexities, that may or may not be explained by science today, could have easily been lost in translation. Their unwillingness to accept any scientific discovery if it conflicts with what ancient scholars had written will eventually be the downfall of Christianity. They need to accept discovery and mould their belief system around it if they want to survive long-term IMO.

Where Atheism falls down IMO is the entire school of thought is far too scientific. The whole "if you can't prove it, it doesn't exist" mind set is all fine and dandy when you're talking about phenomenon in a limited domain. But it when you're talking about the entire universe, it falls apart pretty quickly. If there's one think you can learn from history, it's that what we currently know about the universe will either be completely wrong, or just a tiny insignificant part of the whole puzzle.

Both are similar in that they are far too arrogant, elitist and set in their ways. Also, Christians can greatly over analyse sections of the bible, where Atheists greatly over analyse Tool lyrics :pfft:

[DANIEL8]

yawn this topic is pointless.

what is it going to achieve?

all your doing is bagging people with faith. idiot.

by making this topic do you hope to convert people of faith to what you believe?

maybe you started this because you knew most people on here would take your side and that feels "cool" doesnt it mate. at the end of this thread you would have achieved nothing other than a select few agreeing with how stupid people are for believing in a higher power.

let people believe what they want, if it doesnt fit into what you believe then move on. this debate will never end until the earth is destroyed or you die and see for yourself so all your doing is wasting your time mate.

[holdenman]

I certainly don't care what people believe, if they want to be religious good for them. I'm not and they can respect that too.

I would class myself as agnostic and my missus is deeply religious, we get along just fine. Guess she must pray for me :pfft:

[maassive]

yawn this topic is pointless.

what is it going to achieve?

all your doing is bagging people with faith. idiot.

by making this topic do you hope to convert people of faith to what you believe?

maybe you started this because you knew most people on here would take your side and that feels "cool" doesnt it mate. at the end of this thread you would have achieved nothing other than a select few agreeing with how stupid people are for believing in a higher power.

let people believe what they want, if it doesnt fit into what you believe then move on. this debate will never end until the earth is destroyed or you die and see for yourself so all your doing is wasting your time mate.

Classic NZ view on discussing religion. If it bores you Daniel8, then f*ck off.

There is a place for discussing questions like these (admittedly, it's probably not a bodybuilding forum) and it's actually something that we should do really, because the questions are worth thinking about - whether we realise it or not, we navigate our lives by the answers we give to questions like "why are we here" and "is there a higher power". Not talking/thinking about these things doesn't mean the questions are irrelevant to you, only that you are not aware of how the answers you hold are directing you.

The key thing is open-mindedness though. It is impossible to have a conversation with someone if you won't allow yourself to actually listen to what they are saying.

[Specter]

yawn this topic is pointless.

what is it going to achieve?

all your doing is bagging people with faith. idiot.

by making this topic do you hope to convert people of faith to what you believe?

maybe you started this because you knew most people on here would take your side and that feels "cool" doesnt it mate. at the end of this thread you would have achieved nothing other than a select few agreeing with how stupid people are for believing in a higher power.

let people believe what they want, if it doesnt fit into what you believe then move on. this debate will never end until the earth is destroyed or you die and see for yourself so all your doing is wasting your time mate.

Classic NZ view on discussing religion. If it bores you Daniel8, then f*ck off.

There is a place for discussing questions like these (admittedly, it's probably not a bodybuilding forum) and it's actually something that we should do really, because the questions are worth thinking about - whether we realise it or not, we navigate our lives by the answers we give to questions like "why are we here" and "is there a higher power". Not talking/thinking about these things doesn't mean the questions are irrelevant to you, only that you are not aware of how the answers you hold are directing you.

The key thing is open-mindedness though. It is impossible to have a conversation with someone if you won't allow yourself to actually listen to what they are saying.

It shows we are open to other ideas and arguments besides BB/PL etc... 8)

[maassive]

yawn this topic is pointless.

what is it going to achieve?

all your doing is bagging people with faith. idiot.

by making this topic do you hope to convert people of faith to what you believe?

maybe you started this because you knew most people on here would take your side and that feels "cool" doesnt it mate. at the end of this thread you would have achieved nothing other than a select few agreeing with how stupid people are for believing in a higher power.

let people believe what they want, if it doesnt fit into what you believe then move on. this debate will never end until the earth is destroyed or you die and see for yourself so all your doing is wasting your time mate.

Classic NZ view on discussing religion. If it bores you Daniel8, then f*ck off.

There is a place for discussing questions like these (admittedly, it's probably not a bodybuilding forum) and it's actually something that we should do really, because the questions are worth thinking about - whether we realise it or not, we navigate our lives by the answers we give to questions like "why are we here" and "is there a higher power". Not talking/thinking about these things doesn't mean the questions are irrelevant to you, only that you are not aware of how the answers you hold are directing you.

The key thing is open-mindedness though. It is impossible to have a conversation with someone if you won't allow yourself to actually listen to what they are saying.

It shows we are open to other ideas and arguments besides BB/PL etc... 8)

LOL agreed. Plus there's nothing like a good ol mix of roid rage and religion.

[legacy]

Personally, I don't see why creationism and evolution can't co-exist.

The idea that some deity created the universe to me is just as realistic as any other theory about how the universe began. I believe that a creator could have set in play the laws of the universe and the potential for life and then sent us on our way. Then eventually comes the evolution of man as dictated by Darwin.

Where Christianity falls down IMO is that they take the bible too literally as the word of god, when as we know, the pen was put to paper by men - men who lived in relatively simple times with very little understanding of our universe compared to today. Whatever word god spoke unto them had to be filtered through their puny brains first. Whatever complexities, that may or may not be explained by science today, could have easily been lost in translation. Their unwillingness to accept any scientific discovery if it conflicts with what ancient scholars had written will eventually be the downfall of Christianity. They need to accept discovery and mould their belief system around it if they want to survive long-term IMO.

Where Atheism falls down IMO is the entire school of thought is far too scientific. The whole "if you can't prove it, it doesn't exist" mind set is all fine and dandy when you're talking about phenomenon in a limited domain. But it when you're talking about the entire universe, it falls apart pretty quickly. If there's one think you can learn from history, it's that what we currently know about the universe will either be completely wrong, or just a tiny insignificant part of the whole puzzle.

Both are similar in that they are far too arrogant, elitist and set in their ways. Also, Christians can greatly over analyse sections of the bible, where Atheists greatly over analyse Tool lyrics :pfft:

You are a wise man Mike Zero, wise indeed. Repped :nod:

[Chemo]

yawn this topic is pointless.

what is it going to achieve?

all your doing is bagging people with faith. idiot.

by making this topic do you hope to convert people of faith to what you believe?

maybe you started this because you knew most people on here would take your side and that feels "cool" doesnt it mate. at the end of this thread you would have achieved nothing other than a select few agreeing with how stupid people are for believing in a higher power.

let people believe what they want, if it doesnt fit into what you believe then move on. this debate will never end until the earth is destroyed or you die and see for yourself so all your doing is wasting your time mate.

Classic NZ view on discussing religion. If it bores you Daniel8, then f*ck off.

There is a place for discussing questions like these (admittedly, it's probably not a bodybuilding forum) and it's actually something that we should do really, because the questions are worth thinking about - whether we realise it or not, we navigate our lives by the answers we give to questions like "why are we here" and "is there a higher power". Not talking/thinking about these things doesn't mean the questions are irrelevant to you, only that you are not aware of how the answers you hold are directing you.

The key thing is open-mindedness though. It is impossible to have a conversation with someone if you won't allow yourself to actually listen to what they are saying.

Agreeed.

what could be more interesting than discussing what you believe the world to be?! Mortality?! Purpose of life etc!

Way more interesting than what fits your macros >

[Wookie]

Just noticed this thread as I finished work.

I'm doing a 2 day strongman show at big boys toys this weekend, and standing as a candidate in this weeks election, and working full time...so sufficient to say I'm a pretty busy camper. But if anyone wants to shoot me some questions I'll seek to give some answers.

FYI, I became a Christian at 14. Have done a degree in theology at the Baptist college and am preparing to start a M.Th next year. I'm training towards being a pastor, and have worked as a youth pastor while I did the degree. I'm part of what would be considered a 'Reformed Baptist' church.

Thanks for the kind words, Nate.

So yeah, if anyone has any questions, perhaps drop them here. Or if you want to keep this a 'I'm an athiest and religion is teh suxxors' thread, then maybe start a new thread for the questions.

[DANIEL8]

the reason for me thinking its boring because your not being open minded at all lol.

i was raised in a christian family and still go to church

p.s maasive im not from new zealand so get your facts straight homeboy, guess other cultures have the same views. wow what a surprise, your so open minded bro!

[hhhh1]

the reason for me thinking its boring because your not being open minded at all lol.

i was raised in a christian family and still go to church

p.s maasive im not from new zealand so get your facts straight homeboy, guess other cultures have the same views. wow what a surprise, your so open minded bro!

so youre saying you hold your beliefs because you were raised in a christain family...seems a bit contrary to being open minded

[rovr4on]

I personally think religion is bad, because one who is religious puts too much faith into acting the way they do to appeal to their deity, thus depowering an individual. In believing that there is no god and actions are purely chaotic, this empowers an indivual to realize that they are the only one who are in control of their life and the actions they take which is truely empowering once one comes to term with this. Lets be honest there is no god with a humane concience (ironic considering humans created him) who judges people on their actions. why would an all knowing god create people who he knows will sin before they are even born and punish them? seems silly. In regards to heaven, it seems impossible that one individual can be left to experience what they know of their own identity (life on earth) forever, you would just get bored lol. At the beggining of the universe there was nothing, no space, no matter, no time and therefore no god. The fact that the big bang took place is like 1 in 1000000000000000000 chance of happening, but because there is an eternity, it had to happen. Just like the idea that winning lotto seems impossible, but someone wins every week.

[hhhh1]

heres a theory i thought up. (yeah i know others have come up with it as well)

everything that has ever happened was predetermined as is everything which will happen in the future. everything, including life itself obeys the laws of physics, and everything was set in motion at the time of the big bang(?) (or maybe before, if anything existed then?). true 'free-will' does not exist. all 'decisions' you make are a result of factors which ultimately lie outside of your control. all uncertainty and 'ramdom events' are simply a result of our failure to model this complex situation...knowlege of this changes nothing.

[DANIEL8]

the reason for me thinking its boring because your not being open minded at all lol.

i was raised in a christian family and still go to church

p.s maasive im not from new zealand so get your facts straight homeboy, guess other cultures have the same views. wow what a surprise, your so open minded bro!

so youre saying you hold your beliefs because you were raised in a christain family...seems a bit contrary to being open minded

when did i state i was open minded? i believe what i believe, if you disagree i couldnt care less bro.

[hhhh1]

yeah i dont give a f*ck what other people beleive to be honest, so long as it doesnt affect me

[rovr4on]

pretty ignorant if you dont care about other peoples thoughts, as no matter how hard you try, other peoples thoughts influence everyone. Chaos theory...also the fundamental laws of physics I believe are up in the air after e=mc2 was disproven from the CERN and chicago collision tests of recent.

[hhhh1]

yeah my point is i do care when it affects me...ultimately the less the beleifs of others affect me, the less i care

[Jigga]

^^ Ever taking a supplement & its worked for you and later you found out the science behind it proved it doesn't work? Placebo effect yeah?

If at the worse case scenario a religion turns out to be unfounded, but throughout a person's life they subscribed to its values & it helped them acheive things they otherwise may not have done, is it any different to a placebo effect?

Just a thought!

For something to have a placebo affect you have to believe what you are taking is the real thing. From memory, to become a Christian you have to believe Jesus died for your sins. I can't do that. The only convincing argument I've heard that God potentially does exist is that the bible was written by man and hence is inaccurate.

heres a theory i thought up. (yeah i know others have come up with it as well)

everything that has ever happened was predetermined as is everything which will happen in the future. everything, including life itself obeys the laws of physics, and everything was set in motion at the time of the big bang(?) (or maybe before, if anything existed then?). true 'free-will' does not exist. all 'decisions' you make are a result of factors which ultimately lie outside of your control. all uncertainty and 'ramdom events' are simply a result of our failure to model this complex situation...knowlege of this changes nothing.

[lemon]

heres a theory i thought up. (yeah i know others have come up with it as well)

everything that has ever happened was predetermined as is everything which will happen in the future. everything, including life itself obeys the laws of physics, and everything was set in motion at the time of the big bang(?) (or maybe before, if anything existed then?). true 'free-will' does not exist. all 'decisions' you make are a result of factors which ultimately lie outside of your control. all uncertainty and 'ramdom events' are simply a result of our failure to model this complex situation...knowlege of this changes nothing.

A friend of mine has the same belief. Hard to believe you thought it up to the exact same theory he read - have asked him to link me to it. But I find that theory quite intriguing also. Though I wouldn't completely agree with it. I still think we have some type of free will. But much of our life is pre-determined. Like being a murderer for instance has been pre-determined by the culture and upbringing of my parents which dates back to being impacted by their upbringing as to how they would bring me up, all back dating etc etc. So that I don't think its my "actual" decision not to murder someone, although I'm choosing not too. If you follow.

But picking an apple over an orange today cuz I feel like an apple I dont think that is pre determined.

[Jigga]

[Mike Zero]

A friend of mine has the same belief. Hard to believe you thought it up to the exact same theory he read - have asked him to link me to it. But I find that theory quite intriguing also. Though I wouldn't completely agree with it. I still think we have some type of free will. But much of our life is pre-determined. Like being a murderer for instance has been pre-determined by the culture and upbringing of my parents which dates back to being impacted by their upbringing as to how they would bring me up, all back dating etc etc. So that I don't think its my "actual" decision not to murder someone, although I'm choosing not too. If you follow.

But picking an apple over an orange today cuz I feel like an apple I dont think that is pre determined.

It's called determinism and it's a pretty common theory. I realised it for myself when I was 13-14 and first started leaning about physics (no brag or anything). Also, the "most" pre-determined think you can do is make a choice because you "feel" like doing something. When you eat something because you crave it you are reacting purely to chemical memory and not making any conscious choice. It's not about whether you choose something or not, it's about whether you choose your choice.

Cool vid Jigga but it hardly ends the free will debate as the title suggests, as I'm sure you know. Because electrons jump around at random it doesn't give us anymore free will IMO, as it's not like we control how "our" electrons jump around. If anything it's worse than hard determinism in terms of free will, as it's still out of our hands but just massively chaotic.