A new Powerlifting Federation/Organisation

[steak]

There is a thread going on over at the PH forum and I thought Id share a little here.

Firstly please understand Im not advocating for a new fed or rallying for support of a new fed etc but I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

For example...Would you be interested in a new fed, tested or untested, raw and equipped divisions, a grass roots or novice level growth program etc

Consider the "current lifter pool" is very small, there is not a lot of junior lifters coming through (13 at Nationals this year and only one of them was a female) Could another fed damage this small pool or would it help grow it?

Your thoughts?

Lets not turn this into mud slinging match, fed against fed but more show some solid discussion for/against/status quo

[tinytraps]

I was actually thinking of starting a similar thread after our drunken banter after cbc.

I think it has great merit, and while there seems to be great resistance to the idea I personally feel if a new fed would start membership numbers would grow and grow fast.

We would be able to tap into the market that was created by the wsbb and wpo guys cos when you youtube powerlifting or google it this is what most people get exposed to.

Ill go into more detail when I get to a computer lol but I would support a new fed and be willing to be apart of the building of one if it ever was to arise..

[steak]

arrrrgh drunken banter

loose lips sink ships

[steak]

a few points raised

"Don't believe another fed would "clean up' the NZPF anyway. In fact nearly all the positives don't stem from our top lifters but those who don't seem to care much if they get tested positive in the first place or don't believe they will be tested. It seems most of the top non ipf overseas lifters like Bolton, Gary Frank, Becca Swanson and nearly all the russians wanted and did lift in the ipf but got expelled. This seems to the same with CAPO to, its the place where many banned IPF lifters end up. To this end there could be a lot more drug use in the NZPF with another fed as lifters now see there is a back up option if they test positive."

"The extra costs associated with drug testing are in my opinion choking the growth of PL by driving up costs."

"I appreciate the effort many volunteers put into NZPF. Some people work tirelessly.

However, I see the federation and associated costs existing primarily for those who want to compete overseas and those that care about strict legitimacy of their results. I used to care greatly about my lifting being done before 3 highly qualified refs and it being tested and sanctioned etc...then the same organisation that was supposed to do all that wiped every record I set from the books"

"the same thing happened in n.z with bodybuilding-- there's SO MANY DIFFERENT FEDS NOW-the whole things a fregin joke- and making for poor attendance-@ comps-- NICKOLI--IS RIGHT-we're too small

who gives a f*@k if some jacked dude does a massive lift @ a novice comp--he cant get any recs"

"Personally I think a second fed in NZ would damage the sport,

I don't consider non-tested powerlifting a sport, but they are the ones claiming all-time records, and claiming to be stronger when drugs and lenient judging make up the vast difference between the lifts.

Australia's only a short flight away, so any drug addicts in NZ that want to compete in a version of powerlifting that would welcome them can fly to a capo or pro raw comp."

[steak]

From Tonka...."I believe that there is room for more club lifts and meets like that run recently at CBC (and other gyms around the country) which would appease the few that might never be able to lift in the NZPF. It would also cater for those wishing to give the sport a go without the worry of having to join the fed after only doing it once. Like Wookie said, this is a grassroots environment where there isnt the pressure to perform like at a regional icebreaker/regionals/national/international comp. The whole point would be to encourage people to give it a go and the most important thing...enjoy themselves!!

I also believe that the NZPF may need to look at some how supporting established strength clubs like the PH which to my understanding sent 20 lifters to nationals and this alone from one gym is approximately 25% of our nationals competitors. CBC has the potential to follow the same path as the PH as it shares a similar vision to that of the PH (and ESB but they've been quiet of late). It maybe something that the NZPF may have to do, if we are talking about wanting to encourage and grow this sport in a drugfree environment, which is the vision that we all share, then there must need to be a rethink into how we can assist established clubs with funding, sponsorship, official support etc.

I would much rather have the likes of Steak working the corner of the NZPF instead of some other fed offshore. Here is something to think about...Imagine of OB decided to move on and setup another fed? The ramifications for the NZPF would be huge!!

Not trying to start anything here but the NZPF need to look after what they already have and what we could potentially have as well!"

[Big john]

Before i get into im neither for nor againest a second fed, but the disscusion does bring up some good points

"I appreciate the effort many volunteers put into NZPF. Some people work tirelessly.

However, I see the federation and associated costs existing primarily for those who want to compete overseas and those that care about strict legitimacy of their results. I used to care greatly about my lifting being done before 3 highly qualified refs and it being tested and sanctioned etc...then the same organisation that was supposed to do all that wiped every record I set from the books"

I was under the impression that the old "records" were not wiped and that they were frozen?, Basically no one can break the records posted before the weight class changes (that was my assumption anyway)...i guess i could understand the frustration to a point but, if your records are frozen no one can crack em at anypoint. pretty much attainin a lvl of record immortality

"The extra costs associated with drug testing are in my opinion choking the growth of PL by driving up costs."

do we know how many tests are carried out within a year? i know the cost per test and if wada's testing 10+ nzpf members yearly, thats alot of pingas!

"Personally I think a second fed in NZ would damage the sport,

I don't consider non-tested powerlifting a sport, but they are the ones claiming all-time records, and claiming to be stronger when drugs and lenient judging make up the vast difference between the lifts.

i wouldnt mind some reasoning behind as to "how" it could damage the sport? :-s, ive seen lenient judging and ive seen harsh judgin too, common place in most sports

[tomsammce]

"the same thing happened in n.z with bodybuilding-- there's SO MANY DIFFERENT FEDS NOW-the whole things a fregin joke- and making for poor attendance-@ comps-- NICKOLI--IS RIGHT-we're too small

Theres isnt "SO MANY"... can whoever wrote this even count to 4.... 1,2,3,4... thats how many federations there are in nz. this means more options for people and its great. for example if there were just one federation there might only be one comp held in dunedin and some of the people there might not want to compete in it at that time... if there is more than one there is more chance to please everyone... and lastly if people are losing money over it, then simple they wont do it will they.

poor attendence? there are huge numbers of competitors at most shows.

this person really needs to get leave there emotion in the bedroom and get their facts and figures right before they start blurting out complete bullshit

[tomsammce]

"Personally I think a second fed in NZ would damage the sport,

I don't consider non-tested powerlifting a sport, but they are the ones claiming all-time records, and claiming to be stronger when drugs and lenient judging make up the vast difference between the lifts.

you dont consider it a sport? lol what would you consider it then?

there are lots of sports in the world where there is no drug testing at all... boxing for example... do not call that a sport?

a sport is a sport weather there is drug testing or not. the drug testing doesnt define weather its a sport or not.

[tomsammce]

Australia's only a short flight away, so any drug addicts in NZ that want to compete in a version of powerlifting that would welcome them can fly to a capo or pro raw comp."

drug addicts?... i LOL'd

[tomsammce]

people are free to start another federation if they please.

being told you have to do this and do that do compete in a competition is something i dont agree with... its like a dictatorship.

another federation be good make the control freaks and rule makers think twice before they act.

if nzpf so great and people are so loyal then they have nothing to worry about do they.

[Oblix]

a few points raised

"Don't believe another fed would "clean up' the NZPF anyway. In fact nearly all the positives don't stem from our top lifters but those who don't seem to care much if they get tested positive in the first place or don't believe they will be tested. It seems most of the top non ipf overseas lifters like Bolton, Gary Frank, Becca Swanson and nearly all the russians wanted and did lift in the ipf but got expelled. This seems to the same with CAPO to, its the place where many banned IPF lifters end up. To this end there could be a lot more drug use in the NZPF with another fed as lifters now see there is a back up option if they test positive."

"The extra costs associated with drug testing are in my opinion choking the growth of PL by driving up costs."

"I appreciate the effort many volunteers put into NZPF. Some people work tirelessly.

However, I see the federation and associated costs existing primarily for those who want to compete overseas and those that care about strict legitimacy of their results. I used to care greatly about my lifting being done before 3 highly qualified refs and it being tested and sanctioned etc...then the same organisation that was supposed to do all that wiped every record I set from the books"

"the same thing happened in n.z with bodybuilding-- there's SO MANY DIFFERENT FEDS NOW-the whole things a fregin joke- and making for poor attendance-@ comps-- NICKOLI--IS RIGHT-we're too small

who gives a f*@k if some jacked dude does a massive lift @ a novice comp--he cant get any recs"

"Personally I think a second fed in NZ would damage the sport,

I don't consider non-tested powerlifting a sport, but they are the ones claiming all-time records, and claiming to be stronger when drugs and lenient judging make up the vast difference between the lifts.

Australia's only a short flight away, so any drug addicts in NZ that want to compete in a version of powerlifting that would welcome them can fly to a capo or pro raw comp."

" so any drug addicts in NZ "

Your calling people who dont want to piss in a bottle, DRUG ADDICTS????

How bout I call you a fat ugly c*nt who cant lift jack shit. Drug addicts? What a f*ck wit.

[Oblix]

So I can take all the insulin and Growth Hormones in the world and lift i the IPF and be "Natural"??????????

Either test for all P.E.D's or dont bother, just like the Olympics are natural, I mean there was f*ck all failed tests at the last Olympics, so the Athletes must be "Nataral".

Or are they all drug addicts too?

What fucken dreamers.

[Oblix]

Simple Solution:

Let anybody lift who wants to, get as many people into the sport. as possible, get people interested in the sport.

Then if lifters are good enough to go to Nationals or Overseas, then do your testing. If the Testing was only done at the International and National Meets, you afford to Test more lifters for more P.E.D.S and only lifts done at these comps count as "OFFICIAL" lifts.

But have big regional meets, get people into the sports. Juiced lifters can always take a break or take some masking drugs so they can pass the tests when they are good enough to make it worth while.

Otherwise keep the sport small, keep all the evil drugs addicts away.

[BarBrother]

Im sorry but just because a wide variety of people use steroids does not make it right. Dont forget that steroids are actually a banned substance.

EDIT: I have nothing against people using steroids. I am just a little protective of the natural state of Powerlifting in NZ .

I really hope that the people asking for a new fed are not doing so just to justify their drug use ( for the record i know that isnt the case for steak etc).

I think the current and future of Powerlifting in NZ exists with the NZPF. of course there are improvements to be made but there are avenues to do that change.

If there is another fed then it will not have my support.

[tomsammce]

Brothers.... we all in the same sport at end of day so we dont need to hate on each other by calling one a drug addict etc...

i have a vaild point though and id love to hear an answer...

without naming names, why is it that the strongest guys in the country arent currently on the drug testing program?

must just be coincedence eh? lol

[startinfromscratch]

Im sorry but just because a wide variety of people use steroids does not make it right. Dont forget that steroids are actually a banned substance.

I really hope that the people asking for a new fed are not doing so just to justify their drug use ( for the record i know that isnt the case for steak etc).

I think the current and future of Powerlifting in NZ exists with the NZPF. of course there are improvements to be made but there are avenues to do that change.

If there is another fed then it will not have my support.

BB, you are in a unique position on this subject - i think you input on things could clarify alot of things.

The way i see it, people are divided as to a 2nd fed - but most are in agreement that the nzpf has been a little blinkered/stale in their approach.

People who want a 2nd fed, most imo want it because they just dont think the nzpf with its current leadership is capable of making the changes people want.

As someone who is privy to more than most are regarding the leadership/direction of the nzpf, do you think the current heirachy is capable of moving with the times etc?

[tinytraps]

Tonkas reply has hit the nail on the head.

The NZPF needs to take a good look at itself and the direction its heading and where it will end up in 10, 15, 20 years time if they dont start actively trying to drive the numbers.

Barbrother Im not trying to attack the nzpf or apa (or any of the commitee members) but what are we doing to get powerlifting out there? Are we hoping that new guys are just going to come across powerlifting and then be hooked? I only ever happened to find out about powerlifting by chance, Im sure a few lifters today were the same.

Going out and advertising to the rugby, league boys (and girls) getting the olympic lifters to come and do some lifts just as a bit of fun, some of the bodybuilders, crossfitters whoever. We cant expect them to just turn up on the day. There needs to be a system in place where the regions approach these guys and say, hey look this is what were about come down have a look, have a lift and we'll have a feed afterwards and talk shop.

Now that may seem a bit idealistic but is it really that hard? Sure some people will say no, but we are missing out on a whole lot of opportunities twiddling our thumbs.

Here are somethings I think we could implement (or a new fed should implement) to help things grow

- Raw lifting, CHECK.

-A school competition/clinics run in schools (olympic lifting has a school competition going on, good way to get juniors into the sport.) Dont have a lot of juniors coming through even fewer sub juniors too. The quicker we get kids into powerlifting the quicker theyll fall in love with it.

-More novice comps. The 1 novice rule is silly, how can you expect someone to know if they want to do a sport if they only get one chance at it.

-Lower fees. The fees for joining are pretty high (especially if your a young student no job) plus add on any costs for competitions. $20 for a novice? I paid $15 for the cbc comp, there were prizes, free stuff and a feed afterwards. For a novice comp you get to lift and a certificate. $60 for Auckland bench to do 3 fuckin lifts?? Its even more than the 3 lift..Point is the nzpf (or whoever) is going to need to give a little to get a little.

-Get more sponsors get more prizes for the lifters. We're a strength sport for crying out loud. There surely will be a supplement store that would be willing to donate protein or whatever. If steak can get sponsorship for his small gym why cant the NZPF which by numbers is a much larger organisation do the same??

-Make it more of a spectator sport. This is already heading in the right direction. Barbrother is an awesome MC keeps the crowd entertained. The music is good too. Maybe picking some tracks that amp up the place (like back in black for an eg) and keeping it going through out is a good idea. I know that we shut off the music to help the lifter concentrate but if your on the platform and you let a bit of music distracte you you dont deserve to be there. The lifters could also put on a bit of a show (ala wookie, the gs boys) wether your lifting 100kg or 300kg the crowd will appreciate you putting abit of aggression into it.

That should be enough for now

[Oblix]

Im sorry but just because a wide variety of people use steroids does not make it right. Dont forget that steroids are actually a banned substance.

EDIT: I have nothing against people using steroids. I am just a little protective of the natural state of Powerlifting in NZ .

I really hope that the people asking for a new fed are not doing so just to justify their drug use ( for the record i know that isnt the case for steak etc).

I think the current and future of Powerlifting in NZ exists with the NZPF. of course there are improvements to be made but there are avenues to do that change.

If there is another fed then it will not have my support.

Its not just Steroids, Some people like to smoke weed, thats up to them if you ask me. You gonna get them to piss in a cup at your powerlifting meet?

No testing just means more people are welcome to come lift.

Personally the only thing i wana see is bars getting bent, big ass weight getting hoist. I couldnt give a shit what the lifter does in his spare time.

[BarBrother]

the funny thing is I tend to agree with most of the stuff you guys are saying. Except the steroid stuff.

as far as the APA goes, the old guard have been replaced, and I think the comps are getting better, Compare 2009 Aucklands vs 2011 Aucklands. We do have a more open mind set.

There is plenty of room to grow the sport. I strongly would advise people with strong opinions to join the COMMITTEE. I did for the same reason you guys put your opinions forward because I want to see the sport grow. I would invite soem people to turn upto the next committe meeting and ask question and put in soem suggestions and see where it goes.

That is teh only way to truely influence teh way the organisation heads without starting up a new fed.

[BarBrother]

Im sorry but just because a wide variety of people use steroids does not make it right. Dont forget that steroids are actually a banned substance.

EDIT: I have nothing against people using steroids. I am just a little protective of the natural state of Powerlifting in NZ .

I really hope that the people asking for a new fed are not doing so just to justify their drug use ( for the record i know that isnt the case for steak etc).

I think the current and future of Powerlifting in NZ exists with the NZPF. of course there are improvements to be made but there are avenues to do that change.

If there is another fed then it will not have my support.

Its not just Steroids, Some people like to smoke weed, thats up to them if you ask me. You gonna get them to piss in a cup at your powerlifting meet?

No testing just means more people are welcome to come lift.

Personally the only thing i wana see is bars getting bent, big ass weight getting hoist. I couldnt give a shit what the lifter does in his spare time.

You can see that at drug free comp aswell.

If you smoke weed then you cant take your training too seriosly. I am not going to go into the scientific debate over weed but to be honest the true debate isnt over drugs its over direction.

[tomsammce]

as far as steroids go. having a untested federation or not you will still get users doing the nzpf comps... because they too weak and no balls to compete against fellow drug users... and of course u will get natural lifters doing the untested fed because they like it better.

all an untested fed will do is allow people like me (who dnt give a shit about powerlifting) to get up there everynow and then and have a lift and try better myself and win my class... i have no intrest in competing nationally or internationally just would like to participate in a few comps.

yeah and to u all who say well do in house gym ones... there isnt enough of them often enough.

[steak]

I dont think we should put BarBrother in the hot seat here..if anything he is one of the few that gives up his own time for no charge to try and get NZ powerlifting headed in the right direction. Cheers for your input so far bro and thanks for trying to answer the sticky questions.

yeah and to u all who say well do in house gym ones... there isnt enough of them often enough.

We are changing that T...next year we intend to have a few more comps run along the lines of our first succesful one at CBC. I'll keep you in the loop.

The basic problems with the current regime is that it appears from the outside to be a bit of an old boys club with very few juniors getting through. Be it the fees, the 1 novice rule, the testing, the schedule or a combination of the whole shooting box the depth is being lost and the junior pool is shallow.

Rightly or wrongly, the Uni guys are do a bit to get it going but I fear 1 or 2 bad eggs here has soiled the relationship with APA and the NZPF leaving only a few guys from Sth Aucks, Powerhouse, Eastside and CBC to try and fill the pool. Please excuse me if I have left anyone out...this being the case in point..we are not hearing or seeing what you are doing. Stick your hand up and help bolster numbers.

A 2nd fed idea has clearly been bought about purely out of frustration and although there are mixed opinions on its likelyhood, survival, attendence etc it is a very real possibility should someone not stand up and start to make change. Keep in mind you can affilaite to the World Powerlifting Congress for only US$250. They have CAPO in Oz and Im pretty sure they would accept a NZ branch.

Key here is that sadly the current regime obviously has some very strong personalities and are controlling play. I wonder what the answer will be when the lifter numbers collapse and only a few show up for regional or a national event.

They seem to have lost sight of the fact that out of the 4 million of us here in NZ there are only 200 registered lifters with the NZPF! If I was in the hot seat I'd be getting twitchy knowing that a club comp with over $2000 worth of good prizes recently had to cap lifter numbers at an event!

[steak]

do we know how many tests are carried out within a year? i know the cost per test and if wada's testing 10+ nzpf members yearly,

[

the figure being thrown around is 20-40 tests per year. I guess this depends on what events are on and DFS told us at that seminar it was $900 per test but it may only be $500 from other things I hear.

This is also quite interesting...

Originally posted by Old Bull

2010

Membership Fees $13,432.00

Association Grants $1600

Entry Fees $2410

Workshop Expenses $698.55

Drug Testing not to sure on the exact amount but between 20-40 tests @ $500 each

2011

Membership Fees $12,045.00

Association Grants $500

Entry Fees $1087.21

Workshop Expenses $847.93

Drug Testing could be the same for this year between 20-40 tests @ $500 each

National Entries

$110.00

T Shirt $30

Dinner $35.00

Medals $10.00

General Exp Venue hire$10.00

Refs/spotter loaders $5.00 feeding petrol maybe accomodation

Local Association gets the rest

Not much to play with really...

[Optimass]

For me the sport has appeal - I'm a bit like Tom in saying I'm not interested in competing internationally nessecarily but I really enjoyed the event at CBC enough to say that I would be keen to do this again for sure.

What puts me off about doing an IPf event and looking at it long term as a new interested potential member is the cost of the equipment - a RAW option means people dont have to have the flash gear and can go without if they wish.

In saying that I have changed my opinion recently on the 2nd fed front as I kind of initiated the discussion in a previous thread.

Tonka is thinking for the future of the sport in suggesting that the current leadership look to foster a club/collective circuit to encourage any and all lifters to participate - and regardless if they are jacked or not. To be honest there is a small part of me that considers training natty in order to be eligable to lift in a sanctioned event.

Either way I'd be happy to compete at club level only as I'm just happy to turn up and lift and experience the atmosphere of a good event. Even if I was clean and lifting against enhanced lifters it wouldn't worry me because its more a test of the individual in some respects as you are always going to want to beat your previous score.

And what a great way to get around like minded people and make new friends and contacts - just because you are enhanced doesnt mke you a villan to any sport - there is experience and support to be shared even across those tiers. I wouldn't ever consider doing an IPF event unless I was clean for a good period out of respect for guys like Tonka and OB (and many others) because I respect the tradition and culture they represent to the sport - and those that they look up to.

A more interesting concept would be developing the club lift format to accomodate more lifters - the club lift has brought in a number of new interested lifters to the club - as it grows so will demand for more comps as will interst from sponsers.

IPF need to tap into these clubs early on to secure a growing catchement of new blood. And so what if you lift raw or/jacked - at club level its just about having a go.

I think a network between clubs would outweigh the need for another fed - I would be a bit nervous just rocking up to another clubs lift without an invite though even if they were openning it up to anyone unless the descision makers were aware I was jacked as I wouldnt want to offend anyone.

[thatwaslight]

New fed with less barriers to entry = more lifters, It's as simple as that.