Not a right of passage ... to the critics

[thatwaslight]

moderators this thread is over the top, this is the internet, not a kindergarden.

Sure when someone posts pics we should be allowed to critique...

If they cant handle negative comments then dont post pictures of yourself online :doh: , makes me feel like im in a preschool being told what we can and cannot say...

Some comments have been harsh and should be followed with advice/good points etc...but that is a moral issue, not something that should be banned etc...

Hey at the end of the day Pseudonym is selling the space on here to adverisers.

He needs it to be an appealing place to them or he doesnt get money in the bank.

So to make the site more appealing to the average joe the site needs to be more welcoming.

If its a case of blowing smoke up someones arse who posts crappy pics then this creates the feeling that its a friendly place and joe average will tell his average mate and they too will become members and post their average pics and not fear being flamed for being super average.

That means more members which is appealing to advertisers, and they are potentially reaching more people so the space for advertising becomes more expensive which equals $$$$ for Pseudonym.

ISN'T THAT CALLED A BUSINESS?

[jimjim83]

moderators this thread is over the top, this is the internet, not a kindergarden.

Sure when someone posts pics we should be allowed to critique...

If they cant handle negative comments then dont post pictures of yourself online :doh: , makes me feel like im in a preschool being told what we can and cannot say...

Some comments have been harsh and should be followed with advice/good points etc...but that is a moral issue, not something that should be banned etc...

Hey at the end of the day Pseudonym is selling the space on here to adverisers.

He needs it to be an appealing place to them or he doesnt get money in the bank.

So to make the site more appealing to the average joe the site needs to be more welcoming.

If its a case of blowing smoke up someones arse who posts crappy pics then this creates the feeling that its a friendly place and joe average will tell his average mate and they too will become members and post their average pics and not fear being flamed for being super average.

That means more members which is appealing to advertisers, and they are potentially reaching more people so the space for advertising becomes more expensive which equals $$$$ for Pseudonym.

ISN'T THAT CALLED A BUSINESS?

Yip. And Gymrats the CEO :pfft:

Im not saying its a bad thing its just the way it is now much more moderate even in the play ground

[rovr4on]

so we should all be nice so pseu can get loaded?? lol jks

anyhow it doesnt effect me as I'm not going around abusing others...

good luck jimjim

[Cameron_R]

Hey at the end of the day Pseudonym is selling the space on here to adverisers.

If he doesn't, we won't have a forum! You want to pay the monthly hosting fees? You want to pay for the continual upgrades, more disk space, more bandwidth? You want to put in the many many many hrs to keep the thing ticking over???

If its a case of blowing smoke up someones arse who posts crappy pics then this creates the feeling that its a friendly place and joe average will tell his average mate and they too will become members and post their average pics and not fear being flamed for being super average.

It's not about blowing smoke up someones arse. There are more options out there than 1. Blowing smoke up an arse, and 2. Flaming the f*ck out of someone so they never come back. In fact, most adults can enjoy discussions, debates even arguments without stooping to either of those options.

Yeah, yeah it's just the internet: Know that just because we can't see you, you have a fake name and an avatar, doesn't make your actions any less childish or you any less of a bully.

[tomsammce]

Hey at the end of the day Pseudonym is selling the space on here to adverisers.

If he doesn't, we won't have a forum! You want to pay the monthly hosting fees? You want to pay for the continual upgrades, more disk space, more bandwidth? You want to put in the many many many hrs to keep the thing ticking over???

If its a case of blowing smoke up someones arse who posts crappy pics then this creates the feeling that its a friendly place and joe average will tell his average mate and they too will become members and post their average pics and not fear being flamed for being super average.

It's not about blowing smoke up someones arse. There are more options out there than 1. Blowing smoke up an arse, and 2. Flaming the f*ck out of someone so they never come back. In fact, most adults can enjoy discussions, debates even arguments without stooping to either of those options.

Yeah, yeah it's just the internet: Know that just because we can't see you, you have a fake name and an avatar, doesn't make your actions any less childish or any less of a bully.

[MOD EDIT: Post doesn't fit the content of the thread > Please stay on topic.]

[Cameron_R]

Nah. Not mad. Love a good discussion, and (so far) this one hasn't lost my interest.

[Loochi]

I've said it before, I reckon honestly who gives a f*ck? Like everyone has a different personality and that's what makes this place great.. Trust me, without these 'offenders' I think people will find this place bloody boring...

I honestly just spend my time in my journal or look out for those 'perpetrators' posts. :pfft:

In some cases, they say what we all think.. Yeah yeah, act holier than thou all y'all want! :grin:

At the end of the day, I think everyone means well. :nod:

Just my worthless 2 cents!

[Shutupandsquat]

Yeah, I flame people often, but I also give credit where it's due.

To be honest I've found the forum to be quite boring lately 'cause everyone just says "good on you bro" etc. No one actually says things that are constructive. No - it doesn't have to be negative, but at the same time, a lot of people don't actually know what they're talking about.

People keep saying things like JUST EAT HEAPS BRO without going into detail and telling them that they should probably eat 2.5g protein per kg of bodyweight (depending on their body type) when they, themselves barely even eat 120g of protein per day.

I understand that people are trying to encourage people, that's fair enough, but at least tell them what they should be doing in order to improve (and I know I'm being a hypocrite but some people do deserve it).

[Dr Squat]

I could be way off the mark but I don't think this forum is anywhere near toxic. I don't spend a lot of time on other forums so I may not be well placed to comment but I think it's generally positive and insightful. I like the local take on the strength scene and there are several top guys and girls who give away lots of information for free

There are a few guys who like to test the boundaries. I know the two worst offenders pretty well in "real life" and they are not really that bad. They do go too far at times and they know this themselves. I cringe. I would like to think that they could both spend a bit more time sharing some their knowledge as both have plenty. But they are entertaining at times. Like many others I don't get the personal stuff. The worst part is that I doubt these guys would ever carry on like that in "real life". Yes I know, it's just the internet.

When I first started training, one of the best things was being around the likes of Dave Smith and Reg Dunn and other top bodybuilders and powerlifters. 20 years on, a youngster (and those not so young) can pick the brains of some top powerlifters, bodybuilders and sports scientists in a forum like this. I do wonder whether people actually appreciate the true value of this.

[PeterDolan]

I got given asshole when I came on and still have been, who gives a shit. Get peoples addresses when they sign up and send them a box of kleenex when they sign up (sad tissues not happy tissues )

I had to get off here for a few weeks cause of all the bull shit ass kissing.

Now I ain't saying I'm the biggest and baddest but I out lift half the PLers on here raw and half the guys on here that label themselves bodybuilders are jokes. Sure everyone grows in to the respective sports but for f*ck sakes, call a spade a spade like Tom says, not a tiny lat spread "lots of potential"

[Cameron_R]

Totally agree that forums getting utterly boring if everyone agrees all the time, or if everyone is happy happy joy joy 100% of the time. In fact that's exactly how an online forum from another of my sports died recently.

YES!! Call a spade a spade - no one is going to benefit if you lie by telling them they're awesome when in fact they ain't.

All I'm saying is that there is a shit load of room to move between 1. Blowing smoke up an arse, and 2. Flaming the f*ck out of someone so they never come back.

Both are as toxic as the other.

[Chemo]

yay optis back!

I like the shitstorm that goes on here at nzbb, keeps it interesting in between the serious posts. Which there are a good amount of! and that sweet sweet knowledge keeps circulating regardless.

Only issue I see is that the knowledge needs to be truthful and safe, and that's when the mods and experienced members are most valuable. NZBBs been pretty good at that thus far, no matter how harsh the comments are

Now I ain't saying I'm the biggest and baddest but I out lift half the PLers on here raw and half the guys on here that label themselves bodybuilders are jokes."

Comon bro, thats not fair, your arms and legs have to move half the distance to shift that weight

[HarryB]

Totally agree that forums getting utterly boring if everyone agrees all the time, or if everyone is happy happy joy joy 100% of the time. In fact that's exactly how an online forum from another of my sports died recently.

YES!! Call a spade a spade - no one is going to benefit if you lie by telling them they're awesome when in fact they ain't.

All I'm saying is that there is a shit load of room to move between 1. Blowing smoke up an arse, and 2. Flaming the f*ck out of someone so they never come back.

Both are as toxic as the other.

+1 no need to tell someone something that is just lying to build their ego up... But no need to try and break them either. And lets not forget it's very relative. Some guys might think that the smaller guys look good because that's what they aspire to. Not everyone wants to be a monster and most aren't capable of that so having real people post real results motivates them and gives the poster some sense of accountability.

Whilst a BB or PL might seem like they are doing much to you, no doubt someone further along thinks you aren't doing much. It's all very relative.

Agree with doc in that some of the more experienced guys have a hell of a lot of great knowledge they could pass on but just focus on slamming everyone and yet still expect people to take them seriously when they do post something they think is serious. Each to their own but I think it is a good thing that the mods can create a figurative line so people who choose to participate know there is one.

[Optimass]

Totally agree that forums getting utterly boring if everyone agrees all the time, or if everyone is happy happy joy joy 100% of the time. In fact that's exactly how an online forum from another of my sports died recently.

YES!! Call a spade a spade - no one is going to benefit if you lie by telling them they're awesome when in fact they ain't.

All I'm saying is that there is a shit load of room to move between 1. Blowing smoke up an arse, and 2. Flaming the f*ck out of someone so they never come back.

Both are as toxic as the other.

Great post, pretty much sums it up well mate - Its important to challenge and be honest but purposely destroying someone because you feel entittled as "it's the internet" > regardless if they are wrong is unacceptable.

It's not about censorship at all - it's about take a step back before you post, actually read it and consider what someone may take out of it - then hit submit.

You can still critique without condemming and with allowing for a little abnter etc at the same time. I don't consider being polite as beign a brown nose at all. If anything if you feel someone has made a personal attack by making a post with an emotive context, then be the bigger person and reply with a little dignity. You'll always come off being the better for it.

[Pseudonym]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for their comments - whatever side of the spectrum you may sit on. It's cool that you care enough to comment, so thanks.

To be honest, if money was the motivating factor here, this forum would be the worst return on investment ever! The money it makes doesn't come close to paying for the time and expense of running it now, let alone repaying the cost of developing it since 2004. Yes, the site needs to start paying its way, but it's not the main reason to make these changes.

As I've said, our visitor numbers have skyrocketed over the last few years, but the number of people introducing themselves and posting photos has dropped. That tells me we have a problem. It's simple maths.

The mods and I regularly receive PMs from members with suggestions for the site. Increasingly, there's been a trend of people saying, "Fix the attitude. I don't like coming here any more."

I was debating whether to post some of these PMs or not. But I think I will - just to illustrate the depth of concern. Here’s excerpts from a few of the PMs I've received in the last week alone:

Hey Pseudonym i think the thread re Gym Rat needs to be deleted. The poor guy doesnt deserve to have this happening to him and these fellas are nothing short of school yard bullies knowing he has autism and abusing him like that. Its cowardly and wrong and just like in the schoolyard the principal needs to step in.

How does Jimjim manage to get away with all the abuse he throws at people in the pics forum etc ? These young guys coming through need encouragement and with his remarks they arent even going to want to come back on this site. Imo this is the best site on the net and dont want to see it ruined by bullying.

Bloody good last post on the GR thread mate.Some really good points you made there :clap: :clap:

I think strict no flaming,abusing policy needs to be made clear to users.Members dont have to agree with whats being said but unless its constructive criticism or helpful/useful info they can or will get suspended.some members have to learn to show respect to other members. Again without exception everyone has to show mutual respect simple as that.

mate this forum isn't advancing it's stagnant.

It's being used by a few to chat in public on the Internet and have their own fun. They cud b having this stupid talk on their own msn or Facebook but u provide them with a bigger audience,

It isnt fun when ladies can't talk about bikinis without sexual harassment passed off as banter.

It isn't fun for gym rat

It isn't fun for anyone except them.

Be nice to c zero tolerance trialled here with some form of Etiquette moderaed. That way Criticism is fine but off the cuff rubbish isn't...food for thought.

You know on the "competitive bodybuilding scene" this site is known as poison for the mind. Everyone recommends staying off it especially around comp time when people are already hard enough on themselves...just an insight mate worth consideration. Where's Jo Stewart, Teneka, Steve O, Daniel Hibbs, and other top NZ BBers?

(I'd add to that - where's MasterTel, BigMD, Flex, and all the other respected members we've had and lost?)

That’s just within the last week. I can go back a lot further, and many of these comments come from very respected members.

And here’s a few excerpts from the moderators’ discussions over the last couple of days:

It would be interesting to see how the dynamics of the site changed if we lost the 3-4 usual shit stirrers...... Maybe I am being wistful but I don't recall ever worrying about posting something here when I first joined. Now you sit back and wait for the flame brigade to arrive....not a good vibe anyway..

Not sure where everyone else sits but it is getting quite bad. I'm just getting sick of very well known and respected bbers phoning me to rant about what was posted by a dork on the forum. I find myself defending the forums quite a bit.

If you want an honest opinion its way past time for some permanent bans for a couple of members. Its the same people all the time that are causing the disharmony and like you two I really struggle to put up with it. At some point the well being of the site must become a priority surely?

I agree with [Moderator X]. I haven't posted for a while simply because I don't really know where to start with this forum anymore. ... Like all of you know, the guys who know their shit don't post anymore because every thread is derailed. There's no point.

Man, what is with the forum lately? Is it just me or does every single thread turning into a shit throwing fest where everyone has to be 'right' instead of just voicing their opinion and then moving on?

People just cannot seem to let stuff go anymore, they have to go on and on about how their opinion is the only one, and everyone must agree.

Now im all for constructive arguments and discussions, but ive gotta say, personally, this just isn't a cool place to be around anymore. I used to recommend the forum to people i know, and randoms i talked to at the gym, but i havent been able to bring myself to do so in the last 3 or so months.

I would be to embarrassed to tell a bud to check out the forum, only to have them flamed to hell if they dared to join. They would come back to me and say, 'bro, i went to the forum and it was just a bunch of jackasses having shitfights, and i got flamed just for saying hi'. They would probabley think the whole thing was a setup, for a laugh.

This isn't a goodbye thread, but if the current tone of the forum continues, i can't see myself sticking around.

Despite what some of you may think, the mods don’t enjoy laying down the law. They do it because they want to make this forum a better place for everyone. And now they’re getting sick of it.

I can’t blame them. There have been times where I’d have left too, if I could have. There’s only so much crap you can clean up before you throw up your hands and say, “It’s just not worth the effort.” That’s why I’m taking this seriously. That’s why I’ve said this attitude readjustment is not negotiable.

For me, this website is simply about encouraging more people to achieve their goals through diet and training. That may mean bodybuilding, but it may also mean powerlifting, strongman, fitness modelling, figure, or even a skinny gym junkie who just wants some abs for summer. They're all equally valid reasons for seeking (and receiving) advice here.

In the mission statement Optimass quoted at the beginning of this topic, there was one line which sums up everything we’re trying to say here:

We welcome any debate or discussion which is conducted in a tolerant, friendly manner.

And that’s all it comes down to. We don’t want to stifle debate, but we won’t tolerate intolerance, and unfriendliness will be frowned upon. Heavily.

It’s as simple as that.

[rovr4on]

.

[rimma]

Now I ain't saying I'm the biggest and baddest but I out lift half the PLers on here raw and half the guys on here that label themselves bodybuilders are jokes

fair enough but this kind of elitism doesn't help mate...I think one of the issues here for younger and more advanced guys like you TWL etc is that there are very few athletes on here who are competitive/advanced/can roll with you compared with the vast sea of noobs, weekend warriors, recreational lifters etc.

This is because a) NZ is a small country and b) the vast majority of gym lifters are at the beginner/noob level, so on a forum like this there aren't going to be many competitive or top level athletes.

If I was in your situation (which I'm obviously not :pfft: ) I would probably be frustrated too at the lack of people to give you useful advice etc. So I get what you're saying. But there's ways and means of dealing with it.

Sucking up to the few bigger guys while simultaneously shitting on everyone smaller/weaker/newer is not very productive or conducive to a good forum...

A bit of tolerance goes a long way- I'm not sure exactly what more experienced guys like Harry, Opti, Doc, Pman etc get out of this forum but they still contribute which is obviously a good thing for all.

By the way some people criticise you would think they popped out of the womb at 90kg, 10% BF and benching 140kg for reps :pfft:

Don't get me wrong, if people are talking shit, then call them out! :grin: I love the banter tis very entertaining but as others have said there is a line.

BTW Dolan this was not directed at you, as you seem like a quality guy. Just a general observation on maybe what the issue is here. 8)

/2c

[nzmusclemonster]

Look at the 2 longest introductions in the history of this place. NZMM of course and some twink that was lying about his lifts. Not everyone agreed and held hands in those threads and nzmm certainly took some heavy artillery, but it was entertaining and lots of people contributed and had their say.

Advertisers want to know numbers.... boring forum = no one posting = no advertisers.

A forum that isn't run like a nazi concentration camp = lots of contributors = lots of advertising.

[Darkmanx]

Pseudo, theres an old saying: "sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind" so i recon just get rid of the keyboard warriors and trouble makers and yes you might feel bad but in the long run you'll get over it and you will again feel the satisfaction of making this website work for the people who realy want to utilize it. Plus it will benefit the trouble makers too, how you may ask, well they will hopefully take a hard long look at themselves and realize that this type of behaviour just is not needed.

There is a fine line between saying things as it is and giving positive critism and unfortunately these few trouble makers tend to rip newbies new assholes before they could even say hi.

My 2cents

[ThePman]

I don't normally chime in on this kind of thing since I usually just stop posting if the drama starts, but since it's come up --

One of the main reasons I'm not more active here is exactly what others have pointed out already. It seems like there's a handful of posters that go out of their way to be dicks in as many threads as possible, and when called on it they hide behind the "lol just the internet/banter/don't get mad".

What you guys have to realize is that that isn't your call. Most people aren't coming here to wade through garbage posts. I've got better things to do with my time, and if that's where the forum is heading then I just won't deal with it, or stick to the journals I read and be done with it. I enjoy a good debate, but once a thread gets shitted up with a bunch of chest-thumping teenagers my interest is gone. I imagine a lot of people feel the same way.

The abuse is particularly annoying. The Gym Rat thing is case in point, with four or five guys following the guy around and trolling him for...what? Posting in his journal? Not being up to the intellectual standards of people who can't type a complete sentence?

I can't speak for everyone but when I see that, I don't think "gee this guy Gym Rat is annoying" or "this guy's lying about his lifts" or whatever excuse you want to make. I don't care that you've appointed yourself hall monitor. I see a clique of jerkasses abusing a guy that's done nothing to deserve it. If you're that concerned about the site's advertising revenue, you might want to think about that before trotting out your rationalizations. Call it what you want, but it's still shitty.

That doesn't stop with GR. I'd hate to be a woman coming here for the first time. The culture of misogyny gets written off under the "lol jus jokes brah" crap as much as everything else, and if you don't think that matters, ask yourself why this board has maybe five women who post regularly, and why those rarely post outside the journals. Clearly the "jus jokes brah" policy has been a great success -- for the small segment of males 18-25 who think it's hilarious.

Point being, if the forum's going to be full of kiddie nonsense, I'm not going to have much to do with it, and it's clear I'm not alone in that. Nothing about "don't be a shithead" implies that you have to sugar-coat or blow smoke up somebody's ass. You can disagree and even debate without turning every last thread into high school bullshit.

If you create a culture of garbage, all you wind up with is a landfill.

[Gym rat]

I am in favour of getting rid of the trouble makers like the five internet warriors who are picking on and dont belive me about training and my lifts which is one of the main reasons I asked Pesudo to have my journal locked because I was getting tired of the five internet warriors leaving smart arse comments in my journal plus it was starting to piss me off as well.I hate to be the average women coming to this website for the first time when they see what kind of trouble that is on hear which would make things off putting for the average female plus it would make them think twice about joining up and they would also be thinking to join up to any other fourm that is out there hear in NZ or any other fourm from overseas.Thank you The Pman for sticking up for me I thought that was very well said.

[Growth]

Advertisers want to know numbers.... boring forum = no one posting = no advertisers.

A forum that isn't run like a nazi concentration camp = lots of contributors = lots of advertising.

Some insightful maths there. Here are a few more equations.

A handful of jackasses + people not signing up and/or posting due to the tone of the forum = no membership growth = boring forum with the same old people saying the same old stuff.

A handful of jackasses - all the members who left the forum because they were sick of wading through myriads of garbage posts, trolling, and member bashing = a handful of jackasses talking amongst themselves.

[Optimass]

Thank you The Pman for sticking up for me I thought that was very well said.

Agree with GR ... Lengendary post Pman, much respect.

[HumanPerformance]

Thank you The Pman for sticking up for me I thought that was very well said.

Agree with GR ... Lengendary post Pman, much respect.

x3, exellent post there Pman. And I think 99% of members on here would agree with everything you said.

[Optimass]

Thank you The Pman for sticking up for me I thought that was very well said.

Agree with GR ... Lengendary post Pman, much respect.

x3, exellent post there Pman. And I think 99% of members on here would agree with everything you said.

Good to see you back on the forum lately to HP