The POWERLIFTING DEBATE

[Dr Squat]

A lot of merit in what you say Opti. We have developed a close relationship with NABBA/WFF in the south and I'm pretty sure we have the support of the likes of Graham Lancefield, Dave Smith, Gary Jones, Wendy and Missy to keep building this momentum.

I'm not sure how this will play out but Dave and I have spoken about the possibility of a bench record breakers or something like this as part of a NABBA/WFF show. This could easily take place in the morning and the bodybuilding could start at lunchtime. This has positives for both sports. If you are going to charge spectators $30-$40 they deserve some value for money.

It makes sense for powerlifting and bodybuilding to work together. This will need to be driven by the provincial associations. I do get the feeling that there is an element of comfort that exists with the established membership. Some fresh blood and energy may be required.

[HarryB]

Very good read opti. I came up in NZ bb when you couldn't do different federations or you'd get suspensions and it seemed like politics played some part in contest results. I chose not to worry about that aspect and just focus on being the best I could be as an individual. Definitely the idea of getting tied down to a PL federation and their protocols is what put me off PL in those early years. Actually ll the crap stuff in nz bodybuilding is what put me off coming back home to compete for so many years.

I do think promoting a raw lifting comp with a bodybuilding show would be very popular. Too people of all levels. Heck if I was doing a show and there was a bench bw for reps or something kind of strength comp I'd do it, dehydrated or not. Definitely would take it very seriously if I wasn't competing in the show but had a chance to do something. People can relate to that kind of thing.

[HarryB]

Further added would be the idea that I could show up at one of those comps and compete against guys like doc, I mean sure he's straight powerlifting but hey I would love the challenge of it. End of the day as a bodybuilder I still pride myself on my strength not just my physique. It would definitely generate a lot of interest in the sport to see how guys stack up against each other when you take away the assistance gear and just let us do our thing.

[thatwaslight]

Further added would be the idea that I could show up at one of those comps and compete against guys like doc, I mean sure he's straight powerlifting but hey I would love the challenge of it. End of the day as a bodybuilder I still pride myself on my strength not just my physique. It would definitely generate a lot of interest in the sport to see how guys stack up against each other when you take away the assistance gear and just let us do our thing.

repped.

[HarryB]

Oh I would expect to get owned lol but it would be fun!

[tinytraps]

I think what the IPF needs to look at is how the WPO guys are doing things. Seems like when anyone researchs powerlifting they get put on to elite fts and the westside guys who are mostly WPO. I think that they run a comp during the arnold weekend?

I definetley think combining powerlifting and bb into one show would be awesome. Even if its just bench only to start with, would open us up to a new market, bodybuilders and powerlifters were pretty closely tied back in the day but we have seemed to have separated somewhere down the track and its become an us and them kind of deal.

IMO in its current state the NZPF is make progress albeit at a slow rate. I think opti hit the nail on the head, there needs to be a changing of the guard. I vote steak the new chairman of the NZPF

[steak]

I vote not.

[startinfromscratch]

its hardly a secret that my views on the nzpf's old guard make me unpopular with some.

Getting exposure through teaming up with bbing events is a fucking fantastic way of getting more exposure for plifting. Its a pity that this type of idea is not coming from the people who are charged with the growth and direction of plifting in NZ. Hence the need for fresh blood in the ranks - i agree with this 100%.

My personal position is that NZ having only 1 fed makes it hard to grow the sport, as anyone who wants to lift outside of ipf regulations has no avenue. You only need to look at the awesome success of CAPO in oz, to see that it is viable. Some say that NZ is too small for 2 feds, but i think that that is just small-minded thinking.

Right now, if you are a young guy interested in plifting, here is what you are faced with:

- only one fed, no choice.

- you now get only one novice comp, after which you HAVE to sign up, and pay for registration to NZPF.

- once registered, you are competing against seasoned lifters, fully equipped etc.

- once registered, you cannot take a huge range of suppliments, meds etc. as they will cause a failed drug test.

NZPF is supposedly doing more seminars/coaching sessions to grow the grassroots of plifting in nz - but my personal opinion is that not enough is happening. when these things are done, they are great - and usually done at volunteers time and expense. But who gets to know about them? the one recently at getstrength was a good example of this. huge experience available there to teach, and how many ppl were there who were new to the scene?

Look at esbb - they get massive numbers of new guys exposed to lifting through being more open and simply more dedicated to the cause. Sure, some fall off and some dont stick - but doing lifting workshops and providing a welcoming atmosphere with no pressure to sign up to a fed - thats the money shot.

I think CAPO is more appealing than IPF. You can take whatever supps/meds you want or need to, there are more avenues to a raw lifting division whereas the iPF have and continue to drag there feet on.

The old hands will all say that CAPO is no good for plifting because it is not drug tested - but really, if people want to hit the juice, they will. And if i wanted to have a preworkout supp or test booster, i would fail a drug test with IPF, but not capo. I think it is far more attractive to potential new blood in the sport to have a raw division, and to not have to worry about not being able to take otc supps - lets face it, most people love their supps.

Sadly, i think that even if we were to get CAPO in NZ, the old guard of the NZPF would make it as difficult as possible for it to succeed - that is certain.

i could write pages but i think i better leave it there for now.... 8)

peace.

[Dr Squat]

Good post bro. In my view it would be better if there were only one PL fed in. I don't think BB is a better sport because of the multiple federations. It splits the limited resources and confuses most people.

I am reluctant to be too critical of the NZPF. I know most of them and they are good people. Some have been there too long while others are there by default and probably don't really want to be there. But they are there and they do a reasonable job in a difficult environment. The local associations do great work.

I have been reasonably outspoken in the past. But I have also been done my share at the local level and also put in some of my own personal resources to make things happen. I now see my role as being more about providing opportunities for young lifters. The political side of the sport is very tiring.

I really hope that the NZPF adopts the new raw division and records in the near future. If they ignore this then I think there is the possibility of a serious bid by the WPO to establish in NZ.

[ThePman]

I'm not going to get too deep in this since I'm only on the fringes of the PL community, but I do want to add a little something to this:

I think CAPO is more appealing than IPF. You can take whatever supps/meds you want or need to, there are more avenues to a raw lifting division whereas the iPF have and continue to drag there feet on.

The old hands will all say that CAPO is no good for plifting because it is not drug tested - but really, if people want to hit the juice, they will. And if i wanted to have a preworkout supp or test booster, i would fail a drug test with IPF, but not capo. I think it is far more attractive to potential new blood in the sport to have a raw division, and to not have to worry about not being able to take otc supps - lets face it, most people love their supps.

As critical as I am of some of the multi-ply circus-feds back at home, I give them credit for knowing how to throw a meet. The atmosphere just crackles -- you get music blasting, fellas off grilling and pouring beer, girls in bikinis handing out supps and announcing lifts. It's a good time for the lifters and the audience.

The drug argument I'm of two minds on. I have nothing against drug-tested competition, but as Louie likes to say, there's drug-tested but no drug-free. I really do wonder sometimes how much of the time and resources spent on WADA policy are worth the headache. I say that as no fan of bureaucracy in general -- I think the less red tape there is to deal with, the better.

I don't see performance enhancement as that big a deal. It doesn't taint a record or make me look at a lifter differently because he's running a gram of test and popping A-bombs any more than seeing guys in suits and knee wraps. It is what it is.

I do think that the policy has become excessive and counterproductive when lifters have to start sweating OTC supplements, when chemical analogs of caffeine with weaker stimulant properties are being banned because...well, just because. There's a point of diminishing returns in the anti-PED witch-hunt where it becomes anti-lifter.

And that's really the whole issue to me. The exact reason that the multi-ply feds have taken off in the States, and the USAPL continues to be largely unimpressive, is because the atmosphere under IPF rules feels stale.

You go to a WPO meet and it feels like a party. IPF rules -- and I don't mean this to be as dickish as I'm sure it sounds -- seem like they're in place to suck all the fun out for the lifters and the audience. As one of the fellas I know back home says, a USAPL meet is like going to church.

I realize that there's a reason for this, but at the same time if you're trying to build interest for competitors or spectators, there's got to be some excitement involved, and it doesn't help when there's a perception of anti-lifter policies handed down from the international level.

Should the sport exist to fuel the status quo, or should it reinvent itself? That's not really for me to say, but it's clear that there's interest in shaking things up.

[Optimass]

^^ great post Pman :nod: a lot of good points ...

[startinfromscratch]

Pman said exactly what i was trying to.

Good post bro. In my view it would be better if there were only one PL fed in. I don't think BB is a better sport because of the multiple federations. It splits the limited resources and confuses most people.

I am reluctant to be too critical of the NZPF. I know most of them and they are good people. Some have been there too long while others are there by default and probably don't really want to be there. But they are there and they do a reasonable job in a difficult environment. The local associations do great work.

I have been reasonably outspoken in the past. But I have also been done my share at the local level and also put in some of my own personal resources to make things happen. I now see my role as being more about providing opportunities for young lifters. The political side of the sport is very tiring.

I really hope that the NZPF adopts the new raw division and records in the near future. If they ignore this then I think there is the possibility of a serious bid by the WPO to establish in NZ.

i know i can come across as anti-ipf, but im not. im pro choice :grin:

theres a ton of ipf lifters that i have HUGE respect for, too many to name

but tonka, OB, jono mac, simon weaver etc all come to mind.

but to quote you, "the political side is very tiring" fucking amen.

[ThePman]

i know i can come across as anti-ipf, but im not. im pro choice :grin:

theres a ton of ipf lifters that i have HUGE respect for, too many to name

but tonka, OB, jono mac, simon weaver etc all come to mind.

but to quote you, "the political side is very tiring" fucking amen.

I do think I should qualify that my experience with NZ powerlifting has been nothing but good. Old Bull puts on a great event down at the House, and the APA meets I've spectated at have all been well run. All the people I've met through local powerlifting have been top-notch and I don't have a bad word to say about them. I don't mean to knock anyone or the efforts they're bringing to the table.

In my thinking the complaints are more institutional, because the people involved definitely have all the enthusiasm and energy. Growth will be a matter of making the sport appeal more to outsiders, rather than serving the existing structure.

[Optimass]

It's not about knocking the current fed or its reps ... just pointing out that there is actually a big opportunity for someone here in NZ. You need the old an new. The old guard bring experience, tradition and legacy - all important things to have in any sport. I don't think anyone has posted anything disrespectful at all so far.

Feedback have had offline is that its all positive for the sport - seems most people are on the same page.

[Bluto]

.

[zainnaeem]

how to take a toxic thread at make it interesting

Agree Doc - I think recognition of RAW lifting wuld be a substancial benefit to building profile for Pling from a wider audience perspective. Makes it more accessable to guys and gals that don't want to have to invest in the flash gears in order to represent.

Perhaps Strongman is the only home for the enhanced breed. :grin:

good informatioin

[HarryB]

I just read the Post by Pman and I have to say I do watch some of the PL stuff from the states and think it actually looks like a load of fun. Loud music, fun people, just a show and a half. Then I actually go to the comps here and unless it's CAPO they are sooooo quiet and boring. There isn't much attractive to a newby about them. Or even to an old guy like me.

[Viking Power]

I agree some comps are better than others which are run in NZ which I have being to, and I think the pluse rate for lifter and crowd needs to be lifted how not to sure if there is a blanket fix,

I do like WPO style off lights, loud music pumping crowd and ampt uped lifters, but we only see the best off the best on tube in these events, I'm not sure it'll work for a Novice meet with a guy or girl doing 65kg bench loud music and lights and if I was a crowd member coming in for a look I'll think ya nuts and walk out,

I think this sort off apporach would be mint at the North Islands Champs, South Island Champs and off course the Nationals and any level above this I would put in regionals but I see some good lifters hold back and just quaifiy for Nationals right or wrong I'm not sure yet I guess every one has there theroy.

But at least the three comps above crowd members are going to see some great lifting and get pumped up cause the lifters will be thats for sure they out to break records.

[tomsammce]

I do like WPO style off lights, loud music pumping crowd and ampt uped lifters, but we only see the best off the best on tube in these events, I'm not sure it'll work for a Novice meet with a guy or girl doing 65kg bench loud music and lights and if I was a crowd member coming in for a look I'll think ya nuts and walk out,

this!

i just had a mental image.... FAIL!

[HarryB]

I do like WPO style off lights, loud music pumping crowd and ampt uped lifters, but we only see the best off the best on tube in these events, I'm not sure it'll work for a Novice meet with a guy or girl doing 65kg bench loud music and lights and if I was a crowd member coming in for a look I'll think ya nuts and walk out,

this!

i just had a mental image.... FAIL!

I don't know about that man.. you're average gym goer who thinks 80k is a decent bench wouldn't think someone doing 100k is lame just us old jaded dudes. I mean let's get serious for a second.... how amped is someone like me supposed to get watching a dude in a bench shirt benching 180? It's relative isn't it. I just enjoy the effort more than the weight. If I know someone is busting themselves to lift something then I have a bit of respect regardless of what they are lifting.

[Viking Power]

I do like WPO style off lights, loud music pumping crowd and ampt uped lifters, but we only see the best off the best on tube in these events, I'm not sure it'll work for a Novice meet with a guy or girl doing 65kg bench loud music and lights and if I was a crowd member coming in for a look I'll think ya nuts and walk out,

this!

i just had a mental image.... FAIL!

I don't know about that man.. you're average gym goer who thinks 80k is a decent bench wouldn't think someone doing 100k is lame just us old jaded dudes. I mean let's get serious for a second.... how amped is someone like me supposed to get watching a dude in a bench shirt benching 180? It's relative isn't it. I just enjoy the effort more than the weight. If I know someone is busting themselves to lift something then I have a bit of respect regardless of what they are lifting.

True, you are right also as to someone's efforts but another example before you turn pro boxer as an example you don't fight coming to the ring with fire works and loud music and lights flasing anywhere do you I guess what I'm saying is you have to start some where and how to spark it up I'm not sure as i say I don't think there is an easy fix, But I'll rather see a shit load off tin on the bar than a plate being moved with the vibe off loud music flashing lights and amped up crowd going away remebering shit that was awesome than going away forgetting what did that dude bench again hence why we post / watch WPO lifters well me anyway cause shirt or no shirt that shit is heavy

[thatwaslight]

I do like WPO style off lights, loud music pumping crowd and ampt uped lifters, but we only see the best off the best on tube in these events, I'm not sure it'll work for a Novice meet with a guy or girl doing 65kg bench loud music and lights and if I was a crowd member coming in for a look I'll think ya nuts and walk out,

this!

i just had a mental image.... FAIL!

how amped is someone like me supposed to get watching a dude in a bench shirt benching 180?

LOL exactly

[HarryB]

Well still more atmosphere than the morgue like novice comps I have seen would definitely be a helpful thing.

[thatwaslight]

Well still more atmosphere than the morgue like novice comps I have seen would definitely be a helpful thing.

hahahaha! If every comp was WPO style i'd be there with bells on, at the end of the day it would allow for massive dudes juiced up pushing massive weight.....and i can guarantee it would become faaaaar more popular.

As much as its great that little timmy can shirt up and press 120kg, that's not going to draw huge crowds is it. we want to see the bar bending, nose bleeds people getting crushed by 450kg lol jk. If national rugby was 70kg high schoolers running round it wouldn't have much of a following would it.

Bring on the music, gassed up gorrilas, and girls in bikinis!

[Viking Power]

Well still more atmosphere than the morgue like novice comps I have seen would definitely be a helpful thing.

agree brother, I do think music and a descent MC would be a good start, just my thoughts.