Disregard strength, Aquire lean mass

[PeterDolan]

Get what ya saying doc, just came back from a nap so clicking better haha

But if he is training "light" and in the 10-12 range I wouldn't expect much strength increase.

If he trained like Harry, TWL, SG, myself or following a PBing routine like the ones you lay out then I would expect some if not a rather substantial increase in strength

[Dr Squat]

But if he is training "light" and in the 10-12 range I wouldn't expect much strength increase.

Not trying to be difficult bro...

But if he were to train in the 10-12 rep range (or any rep range) and not try to get any stronger then he won't get any bigger either. Or have I missed the point. :-s

[PeterDolan]

But if he is training "light" and in the 10-12 range I wouldn't expect much strength increase.

Not trying to be difficult bro...

But if he were to train in the 10-12 rep range (or any rep range) and not try to get any stronger then he won't get any bigger either. Or have I missed the point. :-s

But there are other ways to up the intensity. I'm not saying it is optimal, just saying that if he doesn't want to get any stronger that it may be possible (ala GVT).

Wouldn't catch me doing it, I equate strength not to muscle gain but to being able to over load a muscle much more which would give me far greater gains

[vracula]

Hey !!!!

I am after recommendations for a training split

After one that focusis solely on size not worried about strength for now.

Something that is high volume but also includes rest days as im training natty so dont wanna run myself knackered.

any other info needed just ask

thanks :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

natty my arse I heard you were on the creatine bra! :pfft:

[vracula]

Training for strength = cns recruitment ,tendon strengthening

training for size = muscle hypertrophy being the primary objective.

of course this a very simplified explanation,they both overlap to some degree.

so pd and dr squat are both right! 8)

[ThePman]

If you look at a muscle contraction, it has an intensity component (the tension created by moving the weight) and a volume component (the time under tension). Graph that out on a chart with intensity on the vertical axis and volume extending out to the right, and you can get a rough idea of 'growth stimulus' by taking the area under the curve for any given rep or add them together for a set.

Brief high-tension sets -- traditional 'power' or strength training -- and longer constant-tension or exhaustion sets can provide roughly equal signals of hypertrophy as long as they create a roughly equal tension-time curve. It's easier to say 'lifted more weight per session' (tonnage, or sets * reps * weight used).

Increased tension over months and years is quite likely the most fundamental signal there is for muscles to get bigger. The stronger you are, the greater the signal you can send to the relevant protein-synthesizing machinery in your muscles. Tension is necessary but not sufficient to promote growth, though -- which is why the total workload matters and why higher volume or even 'intensity boosting' methods can work so well.

There's been a lot of interesting work coming out of Japan on how muscles respond when blood flow is cut off during a contraction. Without oxygen, the muscle fibers respond very similarly to lifting very heavy weights; the fibers with very high activation thresholds add to the contraction as fatigue sets in. So if you're training with a lot of high-exhaustion methods, anything involving burn-outs or drop sets or anything like that, you're getting a similar effect as lifting something heavy while automatically netting a lot more volume you might using 80-90% weights. You mimic the effects of high tension while extending the TUT.

Of course heavy weights in the 80-90% zone are good as well, and I don't think I'd push the 'pump and fatigue' work exclusively anyway. Doing lots of sets of 3s and 5s can add up in a hurry. The reason you don't tend to see this as a common suggestion is because 3x3, 3x5, and even 5x5 don't quite add up to the volume of 5x10, 10x10, or any of the set/rep combinations you see suggested for pump and exhaust training. Start knocking out 20x3 or 10x5 and you've got an different equation to play with.

[PeterDolan]

The shit the Japs are doing is quite interesting. Not sure I'd wanna train arms with a tourniquet on but interesting none the less. How would someone think of doing that?!

[maassive]

interesting stuff pman.

my question is how do you think different exercises contribute to the total as a whole. Eg, on a push workout I might do 5 x 5 of chest, so not a large total volume directly, but if I also throw in some overhead press, dips and some other direct pec exercise like flyes, my total volume would be a lot more. Do you think they all contribute, or does the effect need to be generated by doing a high volume on a specific exercise?

[ThePman]

Muscles don't do math. All they 'know' is whether or not they contracted, how hard, and for how long. So yes, doing bench, dips, flyes, even OHP all adds up, though obviously you're looking at various degrees of contribution as compound exercises will emphasize some muscles over others. Analyzing that in detail becomes a biomechanical nightmare.

[HumanPerformance]

It is easy enough to gain alot of strength without gaining muscle, or gaining very little muscle. Just because one is getting stronger does not automatically translate to increased muscle.

Two glaring examples of this are 2 champion powerlifters I have trained who over doubled (yes doubled) thier strength with very little gain in muscle at all.

The first was Barry Lee who when he first started training with me weighed a lean 73kg and could squat 65 for 3 reps, bench around 55 for 3 and deadlift 85 for 1. A couple of years and a few competitions later Barry dieted down to 66kg to compete in the under 67.5 division (more competitive at this weight) at this weight he squated 180kg benched 115 (raw,no shirt) and deadlifted 200kg. This was all under strict competition conditions. I worked out that over the two years Barry only gained around 400g of muscle while over doubling his strength. When he wanted to move up a weight class I thought that all I would have to do is drasticaly increase his calories and have him perform his normal powerlifting training (i was young and naive back then). But he didnt gain anything untill I actually changed him to a more "bodybuilding" type protocol.

The other example is another powerlifter I trained (north island champion) Danielle watson (Tonka will remember her). Danielle could squat around 40kg for 1, bench 32.5 for 1, and deadlift 55 for 1, all while weighing 78kg. Three years later Danielle squated 130kg benched 82.5 and deadlifted 140kg all raw at the north island champs. Again this was whilst weighing a dieted down 72kg. So she too had doubled her strength while only gaining a kilo of muscle after performing over 450 hours of powerlifting workouts.

Alot of self proclaimed experts will proclaim "the best way to get bigger is to get stronger" or "get stronger and youll get bigger".Sure you can gain muscle by following this type of mentality, but from my 20 years of experience training everyone from bored housewives to professional athelets and bodybuilders I have found that the only people who gain quickly from this protocol are the genetically gifted, who put on muscle even faster when training like "bodybuilders".

[Luigi]

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM A LOT OF INTERESTING POSTS, WILL TRY REPLY TO RELEVANT ONES AND ADD SOME INFO

GVT 10x10 strict 1min rest, staying within 65% of your 1rm. Really need a spotter tho

dunno what that is.

if you dont need a spotter when doing ANY lifting your doing it wrong peroid :grin:

i train alone, i do just fine without a spotter.

There is a correlation between size and strength, isn't there?

yes, but i think the correlation is that size will make you stronger but strength wont necessarily make you bigger (maintaining the same bf%)

Generally I would expect some sort of size increase to follow an increase in strength.

An increase in muscle size should also bring increases in strength simply due to a larger muscle being able to produce more force. However a muscle doesn't have to get bigger to produce more force, if you can increase neuronal components such as the number of muscle fibres recruited, or the rate at which they contract then a muscle can produce more force without any increase in size.

So an increase in size should relate to an increase in strength, but an increase in strength does not necessarily relate to an increase in size. At least that's how I understand it. I'm sure someone else could explain it much better though

have been doing a bit of reading on this lately and agree with the post above ^^

time under tension>weight lifted

big volume with smaller weights>smaller volume with bigger weights

Luigi, I think you should do p90x

again, WTF are you on about lol

peoples bodys react differently. i found that just by lightning the load a bit i didnt get much stronger but i got a shit load bigger. stimulate dont annihilate

NICE

I've never seen someone get bigger and not stronger.

jay cutler got bigger and lost his strength from back in the days when he trained for strength. It's possible, but in noobs its pretty rare.

someone else been reading MD ?? basically said that jay never squats over 180 where as back in the day in would do 260 and hes a lot bigger now.

[Shutupandsquat]

Generally I would expect some sort of size increase to follow an increase in strength.

An increase in muscle size should also bring increases in strength simply due to a larger muscle being able to produce more force. However a muscle doesn't have to get bigger to produce more force, if you can increase neuronal components such as the number of muscle fibres recruited, or the rate at which they contract then a muscle can produce more force without any increase in size.

So an increase in size should relate to an increase in strength, but an increase in strength does not necessarily relate to an increase in size. At least that's how I understand it. I'm sure someone else could explain it much better though

Nah I think you explained that perfectly well.

[Luigi]

IV FOUND THE ARTICLES THANKFULLY, WILL SAVE A LOT OF TYPING

FIRSTLY

great post @HUMANPERFORMANCE

***EDIT: REALISED I POSTED WRONG ARTICLE

one im looking for is " METABOLIC STRESS INDUCES MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY "

its in latest issue of MD if you got it have a read

[Luigi]

AND TO FOLLOW UP ON @THEPMAN POST

OCCLUSION TRAINING

Blood Occlusion Training: The Next Generation of Anabolic Exercise

By Layne Norton

“God gave men both a penis and a brain— but unfortunately, not enough blood supply to run both at the same time.”

~Robin Wiliams

We all know that blood is vital to support life and various other ‘systems’ as so eloquently stated by Mr. Williams. Blood is responsible for the transport of oxygen, nutrients, and many other molecules crucial for sustained life. Most bodybuilders will also tell you that blood is important for gaining muscle— blood flow, to be more specific. Not surprisingly, an entire category of supplements has emerged in the past decade, focused on increasing blood flow and thus purporting to enhance anabolism.

What if I told you that the opposite may be true? What would you say if I told you that occluding blood flow to muscles can have an anabolic effect? You would probably tell me I’m not getting enough blood flow to my brain— but you would be wrong. Blood occlusion training has years of research to support its effectiveness and in this article I will explain what it is and how to use it to augment your training.

What is blood occlusion training?

Quite simply, occlusion training involves restricting blood flow to muscles in the arms or legs. This is accomplished by use of a blood pressure cuff, or perhaps more practically, by using knee wraps tightly secured around the limb(s). For example, to occlude arm muscles, you would tightly secure a cuff or cloth knee wraps as close to the shoulder as possible. This will occlude blood flow to the arms and cause the blood to pool.

What is so great about it?

When performed properly, occlusion training allows one to use much lower weights than normal training protocols and still achieve sizable anabolic training responses. In fact, occlusion training can increase muscle size and strength, using training loads as light as 20 percent of a 1 rep max1! This is especially useful for individuals who are injured and can only use very light weights or for trainers who are undergoing a deload phase in their training cycle. Occlusion training allows you to still make gains using light weights, while giving your joints, ligaments, and tendons a break from heavy lifting.

How does it work?

Occlusion training induces an anabolic response through various pathways, perhaps the most important of which is by preferentially targeting the large fast-twitch muscle fibers. Fast-twitch fibers are the biggest muscle fibers and have the most potential for growth. These fibers are recruited last during contractions and are mostly anaerobic (don’t use oxygen), whereas the smaller slow-twitch fibers are recruited first during contractions and are aerobic (use oxygen).

Slow-twitch fibers have a much smaller potential for growth compared to fast-twitch fibers. Occlusion training restricts blood flow to muscles, pre-fatiguing the slow-twitch fibers and forcing the anaerobic fast-twitch fibers to handle the load— even at low intensities2! Metabolically, your muscle is getting a similar effect to lifting heavy loads, but using much lighter weights. Not only does occlusion training preferentially activate fast-twitch muscle fibers; it has been shown to cause a fiber-type shift from slow to fast, thus increasing the potential for muscular growth and size3!

Metabolic by-product accumulation is a primary mechanism by which occlusion training produces hypertrophy. These metabolic by-products would normally be ‘washed out’ by normal blood flow, but occlusion allows them to accumulate near the muscle. Lactate accumulation in particular seems to have an effect, presumably by increasing growth hormone (GH) concentrations.4-5 In fact, one study found that occlusion training caused a GH increase 290 times above baseline4! This is a twofold greater increase in GH than what is produced by normal heavy resistance training.6

If those reasons weren’t convincing enough to try occlusion training, consider that it has also been shown to increase muscle protein synthesis, mTOR signaling, and the expression of NOS-1, which has been shown to increase muscle growth through increased satellite cell activation.7-9 Perhaps even more impressive, occlusion training has been demonstrated to reduce myostatin concentrations9! For those of you who have been living under a rock for the better part of the last decade, myostatin is a big-time inhibitor of muscle growth and is thought to limit the muscle potential of muscle gain. Perhaps occlusion training may be able to increase the overall potential of muscle gain through slow- to fast-fiber shifts and reductions in myostatin!

So are you saying we should train occlusion instead of normal heavy training?

Occlusion isn’t a replacement for heavy training; it is supplementary. It is also very useful for people who can’t train heavy, due to injury or deloading. However, occlusion provides several long-term benefits that regular heavy training doesn’t, including slow- to fast-fiber transitions and a greater GH response.

Practical application?

Before proceeding further, please keep in mind that occlusion training is very difficult, even though the loads are very light. It is easily the most painful form of training I have ever performed. As always, before starting any kind of new training protocol, you should talk with a medical professional. Occlusion can be performed for the thighs, calves, upper arms, and forearms, using a blood pressure cuff or tightly-wrapped knee wraps (more practical).

To occlude the thighs and upper arms, wrap tightly around the uppermost part of the muscles. To occlude the calves or forearms, wrap tightly just below the knee or elbow. Perform 3-5 sets to muscular failure with 20-50 percent of your 1 rep max on a given exercise with the muscle occluded the entire time. Rest periods should be 30-60 seconds between sets. After the final set, remove the wraps and restore blood flow to the muscle. A word of advice… be prepared for a lot of pain and if you do not find yourself in excruciating pain, the odds are the wraps are not tight enough. Try blood occlusion and take your training to another hypertrophic dimension!

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/arti ... orton.html

[devil_911]

i really liked the first article

“Everyone wants to be a bodybuilder, but no one wants to lift heavy-ass weights!”

Ronnie Coleman

nothing is going to make you grow better then couple of hundred kg on your back

you are not going to grow like loading up the bar with some iron

[Calvin]

Zumba for mass (lard) and no strength

[Creatine]

For those that get stronger without putting on mass - can that be put down to just getting more efficient with the lift? technique, neural, muscle recruitment, coordination or otherwise? if so, can u really say their muscles got stronger? or just more efficient? The bro-scientist in me says once you have mastered the movement in respect to coordination, recruitment, technique,etc...any gains in strength will amount to an increase in muscle mass lol i dont know :shrug:

[legacy]

As your muscles adapt to the load they become more efficient at performing the motion under X load and therefore are not being pushed to true failure and are not employing all fibres to the task at the level of intensity required for growth. Solution: Change the rep range,rep speed,superset etc. etc. Employ muscle confusion so your muscles can never truely adjust.

Oh and happy brithday Creatine.

[ThePman]

For those that get stronger without putting on mass - can that be put down to just getting more efficient with the lift? technique, neural, muscle recruitment, coordination or otherwise? if so, can u really say their muscles got stronger? or just more efficient? The bro-scientist in me says once you have mastered the movement in respect to coordination, recruitment, technique,etc...any gains in strength will amount to an increase in muscle mass lol i dont know :shrug:

There's no such thing as technique without speed and force. A squat at 50% of your max isn't the same thing as 80% and both are different from 95%. They look alike, and we call all three of them 'squats' but as far as the brain and its motor control centers are concerned, they're different movements. The same thing applies over a career. Your 1RMs at 100, 150, 180, etc. are all different movements insofar as the brain is concerned even though they're all squats and all 1RM lifts.

Form isn't something that you learn and perfect; form is a process that lasts your entire career.

You're right about strength-without-size being a product of neurological factors, and it's this issue of 'novel technique' that allows it to happen. People who train with heavy weights get very good at lifting heavy weights even if the training doesn't stimulate a lot of muscle growth. You can go stale training this way, and everyone will eventually, but there's a lot more room at the top than you might think. A given mass of muscle can squeeze out a surprising amount of horsepower.

[Creatine]

There's no such thing as technique without speed and force. A squat at 50% of your max isn't the same thing as 80% and both are different from 95%. They look alike, and we call all three of them 'squats' but as far as the brain and its motor control centers are concerned, they're different movements. The same thing applies over a career. Your 1RMs at 100, 150, 180, etc. are all different movements insofar as the brain is concerned even though they're all squats and all 1RM lifts.

Form isn't something that you learn and perfect; form is a process that lasts your entire career.

....

Never thought of it in that way but makes total sense. Cheers for that.

[thatwaslight]

WOW STRONG ACUSITION OF LEAN MASS

[maassive]

f*ck me - occlusion training sounds epic! In fact, I have surgery coming up in a little bit and won't be able to train heavy for awhile - this could be ideal.

I'd love to know if anyone has tried this here?

[Luigi]

f*ck me - occlusion training sounds epic! In fact, I have surgery coming up in a little bit and won't be able to train heavy for awhile - this could be ideal.

I'd love to know if anyone has tried this here?

hmmm, just a little theory id like to chuck out there, perhaps wearing tight compression gear could be considered occlusion training, i have noticed that whenever i wear compression pants when training legs the pump is INTENSE !!! and i cant lift near the weight i usually do if i wasnt wearing them and legs SWELL UP afterwards..... just a thought.

[olympia]

Occlusion training does indeed sound like something worth giving a go. Although wrapping the muscle that tightly could be dangerous no? If im not back on here tonight im dead and dont try it. :pfft:

[ThePman]

You can do the same thing by not letting the muscle relax during a set. Blood flow is occluded while the muscle is contracting. Make your set last 60-90s (you should get very close to failure as well) and you're getting basically the same effect.