Oats & whey protein powder

[lazyone]

1: J Dairy Res. 1991 Nov;58(4):431-41. Related Articles, Links

Extent of damage to amino acid availability of whey protein heated with sugar.

Desrosiers T, Savoie L.

Department de nutrition humaine et de consommation, Faculte des Sciences de l'Agriculture et de l'Alimentation, Universite Laval, Quebec, Canada.

The effect of heat treatments, at various water activities (aW), on digestibility and on the availabilities of amino acids of whey protein samples in the presence of lactose was estimated by an in vitro digestion method with continuous dialysis. Four aW (0.3, 0.5, 0.7 and 0.97), three temperatures (75, 100 and 121 degrees C) and three heating periods (50, 500 and 5000 s) were selected. The initial lysine:lactose molar ratio was 1:1. Amino acid profiles showed that excessive heating of whey (121 degrees C, 5000 s) destroyed a significant proportion of cystine at all aW, lysine at aW 0.3, 0.5 and 0.7, and arginine at aW 0.5 and 0.7. At aW 0.3, 0.5 and 0.7, protein digestibility decreased (P less than 0.05) as the temperature increased from 75 to 121 degrees C for a heating period of 5000 s, and as the heating time was prolonged, from 500 to 5000 s at 121 degrees C. Excessive heating also decreased (P less than 0.05) the availabilities of all amino acids at aW 0.3, 0.5 and 0.7. The availabilities of lysine, proline, aspartic acid, glutamic acid, threonine, alanine, glycine and serine were particularly affected. Severe heating at aW 0.97 did not seem to favour the Maillard reaction, but the availabilities of cystine, tyrosine and arginine were decreased, probably as a result of structural modifications of the protein upon heating. Heating whey protein concentrates in the presence of lactose not only affected lysine, but also impaired enzymic liberation of other amino acids, according to the severity of heat treatments and aW.

PMID: 1765592 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

:shock: EEEkkkk.. think I'll have to look that one up and reread it 20 times to understand it!

Thanks for that Flex. I've used whey in alot of recipes - heated and on its own and have to say that I prefer the texture of whey mixed in before heating. If you're enjoying it and still making progress... why change? To each their own.

As for the whole cystein/cysteine stuff... I just had a problem with the whole "cystein aint so important" jazz. Afterall, like you said in your post - it can be used to counteract a low count of white blood cells, aid in preventing hangovers, alcohol poisoning, smoking etc.

And I didn't wanna get into rare diseases and whatnot.. as long as we're all eating fresh fruit (esp citrus fruits) and lotsa veges, this'll produce the alkalinic pee that'll help prevent crystal formation in the amino acids that can lead to said rare disease (or is it hereditary? I didn't look it up :roll:) and kidney stones blahhh. Seein as this is a bodybuilding forum.. everyone's pretty aware of healthy eatin' I suppose. But yeah.. but carry on.

[cycomiko]

What a pathetic display of deleting posts

[2guns]

What a pathetic display of deleting posts

wats this mean?

[waldo]

What a pathetic display of deleting posts

Sorry, something happened to my post. I said, that Flex was posting a scientific study of what happens to whey when heated. Then I rolled my eyes at you, because, if you can't see the relevance of his post to the discussion, then you shouldn't really be discussing the matter. :roll:

[waldo]

Most on this website, cycomiko, contribute to discussion in a constructive manner. That's what it's here for, a forum for informed learning, and thus should be treated with the respect it deserves.

[cycomiko]

What a pathetic display of deleting posts

Sorry, something happened to my post. I said, that Flex was posting a scientific study of what happens to whey when heated. Then I rolled my eyes at you, because, if you can't see the relevance of his post to the discussion, then you shouldn't really be discussing the matter. :roll:

I know what relevance it has, nothing at all to the topic of adding whey to oats.

I will repeat it.

What applicability does research looking cooking whey + lactose under certain water activity conditions for 1.38 hours at 121degrees have to the addition of whey to oats for a quick microwave?

Most on this website, cycomiko, contribute to discussion in a constructive manner. That's what it's here for, a forum for informed learning, and thus should be treated with the respect it deserves.

What wasnt constructive? what wasnt showing respect? the questioning of the applicability of the research ? or the the deletion of posts?

[Pseudonym]

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying a post of yours was deleted, cycomiko? It looks as though the database might have been corrupted this afternoon. I notice that although your profile says you've made 7 posts, but searching all posts by you only shows 4. That certainly indicates a problem with the database. I'll have a look and see if I can find/restore anything. Sorry about that - please feel free to repost.

[lazyone]

What a pathetic display of deleting posts

Sorry, something happened to my post. I said, that Flex was posting a scientific study of what happens to whey when heated. Then I rolled my eyes at you, because, if you can't see the relevance of his post to the discussion, then you shouldn't really be discussing the matter. :roll:

I know what relevance it has, nothing at all to the topic of adding whey to oats.

I will repeat it.

What applicability does research looking cooking whey + lactose under certain water activity conditions for 1.38 hours at 121degrees have to the addition of whey to oats for a quick microwave?

:clap:

Glad to see ya cycomiko

[2guns]

I know what relevance it has, nothing at all to the topic of adding whey to oats

who gives a shit wat relevance it has i still learnt something i ddint know. and i bet u did too

[poos_n_wees]

I know what relevance it has, nothing at all to the topic of adding whey to oats

who gives a shit wat relevance it has i still learnt something i ddint know. and i bet u did too

Ok.. so share with us what you learnt then?

[waldo]

What relevance does it have? It shows that at that temperature, Whey was de-natured. Maybe you shouldn't cook your whey or add it to steaming hot oats as it may be de-natured as well. Very relevant in my book.

Pop quiz for you...what relevance does the following have?

"The dairy products listed above have been heat-treated for a time and at a tempertaure recognised as effective for destroying Pathogenic Organisms, either:

1)63-66 degrees celsius for at least 30 minutes,

2)72 degrees celsius for at least 15 seconds,

3)Ultra high temperature (UHT) treatment of 132 degrees celsius for not less than one second

4)UHT treatment of 133 degrees celsius, or

5)An equivalent time/temperature combination that causes, immediately after it has been applied, a negative reaction to the phosphate test."

[Flex]

What applicability does research looking cooking whey + lactose under certain water activity conditions for 1.38 hours at 121degrees have to the addition of whey to oats for a quick microwave?

Yeah sorry it isn't the best example for oats and whey. The reason I used it was that alot of people won't take someone's word about something unless it is backed up by some sort of scientific study. While not the most relevant it was one of the easiest to read as far as not being filled with scientific jargon. I used it as I wanted to make a point about how heat denatures whey protein - which it does.

True most people don't cook heat their porridge for 80 minutes however heating your whey in oats in the microwave is still going to damage the protein fractions.

Whey proteins denature at any temperature over 60 deg C - Immunoglobulins are destroyed at 60 deg C, lactoferrin at 66 and Bovine Serum Albumin at 72.

Now someone is going to ask me to prove how this applies to their oats, however most guys in lab coats couldn't give a monkeys left testical about BB's so they haven't put a bowl of whey protein and oats in their microwave. You can take it or leave it - it's up to you.

Truth is most of the whey on the market is probably denatured anyway and doesn't contain all the important fractions that they should. Due to the good old cheese manufacturing process that most whey is derived from, alot of the whey is denatured due to various acids and heat involved in the cheese manufacturing process. Not that the supp's companies care to tell you this so it's more just a bad rumour than an irreffutable fact.

[Pseudonym]

That's a good point, Flex - if protein is denatured, can they still call it protein? Or is the nutritional data on the label giving incorrect information?

[Paul]

Random question What happens when you boil an egg is it de-natured .Or when they pasteriuse egg whites .

[Flex]

That's a good point, Flex - if protein is denatured, can they still call it protein? Or is the nutritional data on the label giving incorrect information?

They can still call it undenatured because there is a great little way to ensure that a denatured whey protein can become undenatured. The Denatured protein fractions clog up the micro and ultrafilters so the best way around this is to put the protein into a centrifuge. All the denatured protein, ie the damaged protein fractions, are removed. This then leaves an undenatured protein which they then concentrate or isolate down as it no longer contains the denatured fractions, however it is of a much lower quality. As long as the company doesn't claim that their protein contains all of the protein fractions, the protein can be 100% undenatured and yet missing most of the fractions and still appear to be a high quality protein. It still might be 80 or 90% protein but it's lost a lot of what makes it good.

Random question What happens when you boil an egg is it de-natured .Or when they pasteriuse egg whites .

Egg albumin is one protein that denaturing actually improves its effectiveness in the human body.

When you heat egg albumin it denatures some of the protein fractions - changing from a liquid to a solid. The human body cannot completely absorb raw egg white and it needs to be heated partially for optimum absorption. However hard boiling an egg or cooking an egg to a point that it changes to a solid denatures the protein a little too much and lowers the bioavailabilty.

Pastuerised egg whites go through a high temp treatment, which denatures the protein slightly and deactivates the avidin, however this is supposedly the best and most absorbable form of egg white you can get. It is still in liquid from but apparently has had enough denaturing that the human body can absorb it completely. Egg white powders unfortunately are denatured too much again, so their bioavailabilty is also reduced.

[2guns]

Ok.. so share with us what you learnt then?

this is wat i learnt!!!

What relevance does it have? It shows that at that temperature, Whey was de-natured. Maybe you shouldn't cook your whey or add it to steaming hot oats as it may be de-natured as well. Very relevant in my book.

happy..?

[Paul]

Thanks Flex that sumed it up in a nutshell cheers :nod:

[poos_n_wees]

Ok.. so share with us what you learnt then?

this is wat i learnt!!!

What relevance does it have? It shows that at that temperature, Whey was de-natured. Maybe you shouldn't cook your whey or add it to steaming hot oats as it may be de-natured as well. Very relevant in my book.

happy..?

:pfft:

[cycomiko]

I know what relevance it has, nothing at all to the topic of adding whey to oats

who gives a shit wat relevance it has i still learnt something i ddint know. and i bet u did too

While I have been away for a bit, I thought I would awnser some things.

Learnt anything? Not really, as I research for a living.

Applicability of research is extremely important.

[cycomiko]

What relevance does it have? It shows that at that temperature, Whey was de-natured. Maybe you shouldn't cook your whey or add it to steaming hot oats as it may be de-natured as well. Very relevant in my book.

Relevance is extremely important, and this particular study is not important unless you are cooking your oats for >1hr

Pop quiz for you...what relevance does the following have?

"The dairy products listed above have been heat-treated for a time and at a tempertaure recognised as effective for destroying Pathogenic Organisms, either:

1)63-66 degrees celsius for at least 30 minutes,

2)72 degrees celsius for at least 15 seconds,

3)Ultra high temperature (UHT) treatment of 132 degrees celsius for not less than one second

4)UHT treatment of 133 degrees celsius, or

5)An equivalent time/temperature combination that causes, immediately after it has been applied, a negative reaction to the phosphate test."

How nice, you learn something about pasteurisation. How applicable is pasterurisation to the research that showed long term, high temp treatment provided the only significant effect?

[waldo]

I presumed what I posted was relevant as it showed what happens to your protein powders at point of manufacture. Just wondering if anyone knew what their powders were subjected to before they make it onto the shelves.

[cycomiko]

I used it as I wanted to make a point about how heat denatures whey protein - which it does.

The particular study was not looking at denaturing, it was examining the effect of the maillard reaction of amino acids and lactose on its availability (in vitro digestibility using pepsin) and availability (calculated using the equation

amino acid avialability % =amino acid digest (heated) - amino acid digest (unheated)/amino acid digest (unheated) x100

They found that heating in the presence of sugar, will reduce the total mg/16g nitrogen of cycstiene and lysine. At low tempertures these changes are small, <0.4mg/16g nitrogen. at high temp long time these changes are bigger, in some cases a halfing of the amino acids concentration, but this also depended upon water activity (which was another factor in the experiemental process)

Digestibility followed a similar function and availability of most amino acids decreased after long term high temp cooking.

Most of the effect was caused through the Maillard reaction although there was some oxidation of other, non-maillard amino acids. But thats the same for any protein source that is heated for a long period of time. Leave a steak in the oven until its core temp has been 121deg for 1.4hours and see how it looks.

True most people don't cook heat their porridge for 80 minutes however heating your whey in oats in the microwave is still going to damage the protein fractions.

Whey proteins denature at any temperature over 60 deg C - Immunoglobulins are destroyed at 60 deg C, lactoferrin at 66 and Bovine Serum Albumin at 72.

Which is all true, but the main issue is 1)are people taking whey in their oats for any potential biological activity, or 2)are they taking whey in their oats for amino acids.

If its 2), then it doesnt relaly matter, if its 1) then it may, but the research you provided did not look at biological activity.

Truth is most of the whey on the market is probably denatured anyway and doesn't contain all the important fractions that they should.

I would pay to see the proof of this 'truth'

Due to the good old cheese manufacturing process that most whey is derived from, alot of the whey is denatured due to various acids and heat involved in the cheese manufacturing process.

Whey proteins are pretty much acid stable, unlike casein proteins, which denature and clot. Not a whole lot of acidic whey protein is made these days, at least not for the nutritional market. Most is from rennited cheese production, especially in NZ.

[cycomiko]

I presumed what I posted was relevant as it showed what happens to your protein powders at point of manufacture. Just wondering if anyone knew what their powders were subjected to before they make it onto the shelves.

you missed out other treatmet steps that can happen to whey before it is run into a bag.

Like the heat used during the filtration steps, or the heat used during the powder spraying.

Whey powder within NZ is only lower temp pasteurised for ~15-20 seconds, as higher temps are only used for commerical liquid products, like long life milk etc.

[waldo]

Basically that is the declaration that must be made to the health dept when my powder is imported into NZ.

Like you said, you're the researcher. I am but a lowly salesman. I wouldn't have a clue what happens step by step. Well that's a lie, I have a fair idea, but just a general one.

[Flex]

I should never have posted that study - as I said the reason I used it was that some people like to see studies before they believe someone.

In my books any change to the amino acid profile of a protein is denaturing it - whether for good or bad. Unfortunately heating whey generally denatures it in a negative sense i.e. damaging the protein fractions.

I would pay to see the proof of this 'truth'

So would I - Not too sure that I can find any proof as to denatured whey. However I'd like to see proof that the majority of whey protein on the market contains every possible protein fraction that the marketing would have us believe. True the really good whey's supposedly have most of the microfractions intact, however I'd wager most of the ion exchange isolates are missing a few, or at least so low in some fractions that it barely counts, and that some of the cheaper stuff coming out of countries other than NZ wouldn't be all that flash. And I imagine that all of the low fat proteins are very low in growth factors, and that if a protein is marketed as 0g of fat (which I have seen some marketed as) then it is most certainly denatured.

In hindsight it appears many people don't know what a microfraction is anyway and really only seem to care about whether a protein tastes good and how cheaply they can get it, so its probably a pretty moot point.