A little Sumo help please gents

[steak]

I pull a 260kg raw conventional dead but Im doing a cycle using sumo only ...purely to see if the style suits me or if there is any advantage for me...Ive measured up and going the numbers Im suited to both stylz...if nothing else its adding to the skill bank. This is my 3rd time doing them and I have now included the velocity suit (size 50 - not a comp fit as its ex Wookie and he has taken it through its paces ) so I can now show the raw/suited comparisons...some feel good but some are very slow...Any help would be great..Jono, Mike Zero, Doc, Nate, PMan, OB et al....thanks fellas

[nate225]

Bro,

I cant see the vid cos its blocked at work, however, Bill Henderson is the guy I see as the technician of Sumo in NZL. He managed a 325 from memory at 110?

Anyway he told me that the set up was hugely important, to squat down (rather than bend over as in conventional) when gripping the the bar. Then he simply focused on locking the knees, with very little extension of the back required.

I could get his number for you if you want Steak?

Nate

[ThePman]

I think you should stick to the deadlift instead of this "sumo lift" thing.

[Dr Squat]

I'm with PMan bro. I don't think there is a lot of point with Sumo. It looks like you are struggling to get low enough to use your hips and legs from the floor. And it turns into more of a stiff legged sumo pull. You have made great progress with your conventional and I would stick with it. Build a back of steel and build a massive deadlift.

Have a look at Ed Coan deadlifting. He drives hard with his hips from the floor and his back is very upright.

I played around with sumo in my young days. I lacked flexibility and I never got comfortable with it.

I know that Sheiko demands that you work the competition lifts hard. Once of the reasons I like Westside is that you don't have to deadlift that often. I treat it like box squats, good mornings etc- that is as any other max effort execise. I feel fresh when I do deadlift as it's only every 8-10 weeks for 3 weeks.

Just my thoughts bro. Nick Hansen is the best deadlifter I have seen apart from Coan. Tonka is not a great deadlifter but he is the smartest guy I know. Be good to get their views.

[steak]

Thanks Nate, Matt and Craig...'preciate the feedback fellas. After my lack of success thus far with it (not long really) I tend to agree that I could possible be better off with my conventional pull. Ive had some good advice from soemothers and Im still keen to run it till the end of the cycle 'cos if anything other than proving Im no good at sumo or contrary to that, I may get some carryover to my squat and conv deadlift too...we will see.

Hips have to go down, bar has to stay closer and the set up in general will get a tidy up...will practice with lighter reps and higher reps and see how iot develops and test at the end of maybe the next wave...

churr!

[Tonka]

Hey bro, I have dabbled with the sumo as well and as much as I try, and believe me want to do my deadlift sumo I get frustrated and always head back to conventional. Like Nate said, its all in the setup. Spread the floor and push the knees out while maintaining an upright back. This setup emphasizes the importance of flexibility and strength in the hips, buttocks, adductors and hamstrings.

If you get a side shot of the ideal sumo deadlift setup, the HIPS will be pretty much above the bar so in essence,the bar stays close to the powerbase. When its not setup properly (normally due to flexibility) the distance between the hips and the bar will be substantial and the lift will reflect something similar to a stiff legged deadlift placing all the strain through the back because the legs lockout straight away in order to get that initial force to move the bar off the ground. Watch the hips of the strong sumo deadlifters, they move at exactly the same time as the bar does and finish moving when the bar is locked out.

It is a very technical lift, I know my coach has been trying to get me to do sumo for many years (as well as squat wider) because it is so efficient and less taxing on the body compared to conventional. And its because of this very reason most of the top Russian lifters are told that they must sumo because of this. HOWEVER did you know that most of them have a much stronger conventional...Boris wont let them conventional...its all about the programming and controlling the accumalated fatigue and too much (like by doing conventionla) will require more recovery.

I think if you really want to, make the call and go for it but stick with it. Master it technically and that only comes with diliigence and commitment so its your call bro.

Ive rambled enough...OB...anything to add?

[Old Bull]

Hey Bro,

Not that I am a Sumo master I did Sumo for two reasons the amount of Squatting you do on Sheiko, can affect your Deadlift recovery wise, a lot of the top Russian lifters train Sumo but lifted conventional. Your Squat will improve because of this. The other reason is that my sacroiliac is not in the right place the loading of a conventional over under hand grip once the bar leaves the floor there is a slight twist which loads the affected area. When I get to 95% plus I am just about done and struggle to lift for a couple of weeks.

Sumo is real good up to 85-90% then it can turn to custard real quick, it is a very technical lift.

A couple of points

in the warm ups your head was down instead of up this will make the bar drift out in front of you making the pull that much harder.

When you got to the singles I think 3 and 5 your knees were facing in a different position to your toes, knees and toes should face in same direction.

There are two parts to the Sumo pull, Stand up, squeeze the bar off the floor (slow off the floor) not like Conv where you rip it, then hips through.

You may need to adjust your foot position ie wider and or closer to the bar. Two things with the toes when they are at an extreme angle the bar comes off the floor a lot easier, but the lockout can become unstable. With toes pointed more straight the start is hard but the lockout is a lot easier. Do work sets and try to find the best mix it will feel effortless when done right.

Agree with guys you are conventional pulling for the Sumo.

OB

[steak]

Thnaks OB...since i posted this and with some from the PH crew I have pretty much got all that info and have made some changes. On ething you mention is the toes out at an extreme angle...found this out pretty quick and tried to walk the bar all over the place...I know another lifter who likes to do this so will pass it on if he dont see it here :nod:

Im going to work the sumo for 3x8s with a little progression each week tillthis wave ends and then try some heavier sest but will also run my conventional pull on the same session with a higher %...will gauge how the recovery goes over the next 3or so sessions.

Cheers bro 8)

[Mike Zero]

I think all the technical points have been covered.

Just my opinion but I wouldn't work the numbers as percentages into a Sheiko cycle until you are happy with your technique and want to move forward. I'm not sure how the cycle is structured but for example you could swap the second round ov deadlifting on the deadlift day for 5 sets ov 3 sumo with a flexible weight. Not heavy and just focussing on perfecting the motor pattern before you start trying to work with 70%+ weights. I know technique on light weights means nothing on sumo deadlifts but you should at least know the motor pattern before you go heavier. If you're not doing it right with light weights and you try and work it in to percentages on a program you're not going to have a shit show ov getting your technique right at all. Especially if the percentages are getting progressively higher by the week.

[steak]

Good point there Mike...Im starting on a pretty low weight for the 3x8 and will only add progression in small increments...started on 50% so it will be some time before I get near 70%. Focusing my flex/mob work around the movement a little more too...nothing ventured- nothing gained eh

[red machine]

I know another lifter who likes to do this

haha noted, dont need to be takin that stroll across the platform again, thats for sure :pfft: :pfft: will have a play with foot position out of interest

[big MAC]

Just noticed this now..

Some good advice, I agree with Mike re reps/Sheiko.

On the form side, with your height and leg length, I'd suggest going just about touching the plates. Maybe 1 inch inside the plates. Experiment bringing them in an inch or two.

IMO for myself, the keys were:

-Find a comfortable wide stance

-Begin the pull by pushing the feet outwards (spread the floor as T said) and also driving the hips into the bar. Those are two important factors which will stop you doing a wide stance conventional.

-Seek to keep your torso angle as upright as possible, though I do not believe many have the levers to do that 'Henderson' style Nate mentioned. A wider stance will help this.

- IMO the first priority is to get the knees locked out, or mostly knocked out. If you begin to straighten the back angle while the knees are not locked out, the bar stops moving.

-Once the knees are locked, continue the momentum by pushing the hips through. This should feel like the culmination of the movement with the hips that you used to start the pull.

I'd also recommend considering learning sumo with straps (or the hook grip) so you're concerned more the form of the movement. Seems like a little thing, but I think it could help.

[steak]

Thanks Jono..more good points!

Im working on the flexibility as I go so then stance is slower sneaking out...slowly and painfully Will keep at it.