Why I juice - Non competitive AAS

[maassive]

In a recent forum a board member had a go at me about being on aas, accusing me of not knowing enough about nutrition or training before going on gear. Without debating that accusation, I want to discuss the philosophy behind it and take a somewhat different view from the usual here (for as we all recognise, this is a pretty regular thing to say to someone re juicing).

My thought starts off by asking what is behind the idea that someone needs to qualify with hard work and hard nutrition before 'cheating' with gear. The idea, I think, seems to be that a) one should try and achieve the most possible naturally first, using gear as the means to achieve 'next level' gains which go beyond natural hard work; and b) that for one to get the most out of juicing one needs to know how to train and eat right first.

For many/perhaps most people considering gear these points make a lot of sense, but here is where I take issue with them. I think the premise upon which they rest is an assumption of a common goal. The goal is either success in powerlifting or bodybuilding and the advice thus pertains to using aas appropriately to meet these goals.

But what if one's goals are different?

My own goals are here an excellent example. I don't have any desire to compete in anything strength related. In fact, I don't have any desire to compete at all. I have no desire to stand in my undies in front of a crowd; I don't give a f*ck what others think about my body. I don't care if I am fat, though wouldn't mind having nice abs. I don't want to score chicks; I'm already in a permanent relationship. My goal is simply to lift weights and be a unit. I want to have a solid, functioning, strong body and keep it that way late into life.

With my goals in mind, does this point about nutrition still stand?

Why is it that others feel the right to say when someone is ready to use gear and when not when our goals may be completely different?

I think at the end of the day, we're talking about a substance (indeed an illegal one) that has the ability to change aspects of your body. Like all chemicals it has risks and sides, and it has benefits and desired effects. For me, the biggest caveat regarding aas is knowing the sides and risks and having the maturity to weigh them up for oneself. All other advice must consider a persons goal.

Gentlemen, I welcome your thoughts on this.

[HarryB]

Interesting point. I think that whilst I might have a particular view of how, why and when someone should take aas I recognise that everyone will have their own opinion and make their own decision. I do find it interesting that people seem to like deriding someone just for taking aas when in fact a fair portion of us use!

Unfortunately that's the nature of the net, if you post something you must expect to get a bunch of commments, both positive and negative.

In relation to your other post about nutrition, I too found it baffling that you didn't have much of an idea about nutrition. Not in relation to your aas use but just your seeming complete lack of knowledge regarding nutrition at all. It baffled me because most of us who train a lot and consider what we do something relatively serious educate ourselves and at least have some kind of idea about the basics of nutrition. I guess some figure you are trying to run before you have started crawling.

Personally I don't really care what anyone else does, but if an opinion is sought it will be given. That's what you did and whilst you didn't like some of the opinions given that's the nature of the beast. Take what you need and disregard what you don't.

[bigskinny]

I agree man. People are always telling me I'm too small for the roids. but what if my goal is to look like the situation from jersey shore . People just need to worry about them selves.

[maassive]

Thanks Harry. I want others to reply on this so I'm hesitant of posting further to avoid sidetracking, but I'd like to come back at you on this one with an analogy to illustrate my point (hopefully) a little better.

You suggest that gear without a solid understanding of nutrition is like running before learning to crawl.

Now consider that someone is considering trying Exstacy for the first time. Would anyone say to them, "hey make sure you know how to get super fucked up on alcohol and weed before moving to the hard stuff?" Of course not, because the goal is not to be a drug guru, it's to try X.

What about someone who, again, is not interesting in competing or being a proper bodybuilder, who doesn't care about looking the part or getting the maximum effect possible. What if someone wants to do aas because they like the feeling of test, and love training hard at the gym?

What if, to put it another way, someone doesn't care much for crawling and likes running. If their goal is not to have progressed properly from crawling, though walking and onto marathons, if their goal is to simply run because they love running then - what do we say?

[tomsammce]

its all just such bullshit isnt.. it these people who preech this utter crap are either one of 3 kinds iv learnt based on personal exp in the nz bodybuilding scene.

1. they have never even spoken to a steroid user face to face or ever even seen a steroid, theyve read and listened to all the bad stereotypical crap that come from the media and formed their own fucked up opinions that they will take with them to the grave.

2. these are the people who keep telling u ur natural potential and age is so important, and ur nutrition is never good enough, you dont train hard enough, always room for improvement blah blah... but if u spent a week with them ud youd see after day 2 they dnt practice what they preech and are basically full of shit, they started using younger than you and on commencing their first cycle their physique was worse than yours before you even knew what a steroid was.

3. the mr and mrs naturals... these are the people whose shit dont stink because they are... according to themselves... natural but only because they still look it so can get away with it, and they tell you to never use gear while they sit there thinking bout how sore their arse is from the shot this morning, they compete in natural shows, they bad mouth everyone in nz bodybuilding who uses steroids behind their backs.... why... i dunno im still trying to figure that one out, maybe its to protect their reputation or their bussinesses or maybe its their god given right to privacy..... well u in the wrong game motherfuckers and we know who u are coz bodybuilders have biggest mouths of any types of person i ever fucken met lol

and then there are the good cunts and silent ones who keep shit real and give u no bull advice and answers or sit back look, read and laugh lol

i do me and you do u. thats what i say.

[jimjim83]

Thanks Harry. I want others to reply on this so I'm hesitant of posting further to avoid sidetracking, but I'd like to come back at you on this one with an analogy to illustrate my point (hopefully) a little better.

You suggest that gear without a solid understanding of nutrition is like running before learning to crawl.

Now consider that someone is considering trying Exstacy for the first time. Would anyone say to them, "hey make sure you know how to get super fucked up on alcohol and weed before moving to the hard stuff?' Of course not, because the goal is not to be a drug guru, it's to try X.

What about someone who, again, is not interesting in competing or being a proper bodybuilder, who doesn't care about looking the part or getting the maximum effect possible. What if someone wants to do aas because they like the feeling of test, and love training hard at the gym?

What if, to put it another way, someone doesn't care much for crawling and likes running. If their goal is not to have progressed properly from crawling, though walking and onto marathons, if their goal is to simply run because they love running then - what do we say?

To me it is concerning that you want to use gear but dont care about getting the maximum effects. Why wouldnt you want to get the maximum effects/results. If you dont care about results stick to creatine.

Another issue I have is if someone say Ramy uses gear and obviously has no idea about anything else apart from what he read is a book and his results clearly show hes got no idea, but he then gives advice.

But if you want to use to be cool go for it, but dont tell anyone because if you brag about using and you have piss poor results you will become the joke of the gym (just like Ramy).

Each to their own at the end of the day.

[Andre01]

These are my feelings on this subject,

I have to agree with the most of the people on here, I personally feel that you need a solid foundation before trying anything, and this includes nutrition and how lift. I fell that you need to try everything else before you go and start injecting yourself, however if you chose to ignore the advise that you have been given by people who do use the stuff and chose to go forth and use. Then you need to kick yourself in the ass and bash your head on a brick wall. These people on here are experienced and are only trying to help you again if you choice to ignore them, then please do it safely and make sure that you really understand what you are putting in your body and that you practice safely.

:banging:

[maassive]

These are my feelings on this subject,

I have to agree with the most of the people on here, I personally feel that you need a solid foundation before trying anything, and this includes nutrition and how lift. I fell that you need to try everything else before you go and start injecting yourself, however if you chose to ignore the advise that you have been given by people who do use the stuff and chose to go forth and use. Then you need to kick yourself in the ass and bash your head on a brick wall. These people on here are experienced and are only trying to help you again if you choice to ignore them, then please do it safely and make sure that you really understand what you are putting in your body and that you practice safely.

:banging:

Missed the point I think bro. There is no discussion here about safe practice, risks, sides, etc. As I mentioned above, these things are paramount and thus the maturity to adequately negotiate the decisions involved is a must. This is not about whether or not you know how to do aas as low-risk as possible, it's about goals.

[thatwaslight]

Blah blah blah worry about someone who smokes or is a heavy drinker not someone who does a 15 week cycle.

[Lurker]

My goal is simply to lift weights and be a unit. I want to have a solid, functioning, strong body and keep it that way late into life.

With my goals in mind, does this point about nutrition still stand?

You've contradicted yourself here, first you say you have no interest in powerlifting or bodybuilding then in the next breath you say you want to become a big strong unit.

Regardless of your aims or goals, if your on gear or not, the same principle behind any form of lifting always remains the same, nutrition>training>rest>supplements. Unfortunately your fufilling the ignorant stereotype many people have of people on gear, that it's a sort of shortcut, a cheat and that users don't need to put in the same effort as nattys when it comes to nutrition and training.

Thats what bugs me, not that you didn't put in the time or 'hard yards' as a natural. Your problem is not so much that you went from A straight to D (which you obviously know a bit about) but that you didn't bother investing the same amount of time and effort educating and practicing B and C first which are ultimately far more important.

[tomsammce]

My goal is simply to lift weights and be a unit. I want to have a solid, functioning, strong body and keep it that way late into life.

With my goals in mind, does this point about nutrition still stand?

You've contradicted yourself here, first you say you have no interest in powerlifting or bodybuilding then in the next breath you say you want to become a big strong unit.

hes not contradicting himself, he said he doesnt have any interest in competing in it.

[maassive]

You've contradicted yourself here, first you say you have no interest in powerlifting or bodybuilding then in the next breath you say you want to become a big strong unit.

Regardless of your aims or goals, if your on gear or not, the same principle behind any form of lifting always remains the same, nutrition>training>rest>supplements. Unfortunately your fufilling the ignorant stereotype many people have of people on gear, that it's a sort of shortcut, a cheat and that users don't need to put in the same effort as nattys when it comes to nutrition and training.

Thats what bugs me, not that you didn't put in the time or 'hard yards' as a natural. Your problem is not so much that you went from A straight to D (which you obviously know a bit about) but that you didn't bother investing the same amount of time and effort educating and practicing B and C first which are ultimately far more important.

Thanks for coming in on this Lurker.

Firstly, I disagree with a contradiction. I do not want to do powerlifting or bodybuilding as a sport. However, I do lift weights because I want to get stronger (duh); I consider it my favourite hobby. I like the mental challenge of pushing through barriers and enjoy achieving results - but my only competition is myself. My goal then is not to be the best - not even to be better than other people - but too enjoy the experience and feel happy with myself and my life. This, I don't think, is bodybuilding or powerlifting - though certainly it shares common characteristics.

Just a quick question: "the same principle behind any form of lifting always remains the same, nutrition>training>rest>supplements." Why? (Note: I'm not disagreeing with this statement, I'm just trying to tease out the logic behind it.)

[Chemo]

i do me and you do u. thats what i say.

Word.

[maassive]

[ Unfortunately your fufilling the ignorant stereotype many people have of people on gear, that it's a sort of shortcut, a cheat and that users don't need to put in the same effort as nattys when it comes to nutrition and training.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one as well. Gear is indeed a shortcut. One of the comments that Chemo received on his recent journal was that he had achieved in a cycle what would take years of training natural. And of course it is; that's why we do it; that's why they're called performance enhancing drugs.

This is not to say that those on AAS don't need to put effort in to training or nutrition - I never said anything close to that.

[Lurker]

hes not contradicting himself, he said he doesnt have any interest in competing in it.

No he states that because his reasons for using AAS are different than a powerlifter (gaining strength) or a bodybuilder (gaining muscle) therefore the same principles behind nutrition and training don't apply, but he then goes onto state that he's using gear because he wants to become a big strong unit, ie his reasons are exactly the same as the forementioned.

Ultimately his body, his choice and the only people I hate are the users without balls who try and convince everyone that they are natty. I just think his prioritys are foolish, but morally no different than dumb kids who spend hundreds of bucks on massgain2000, sizeons, superpump, testfactorx9000 or whatever while neglecting the basics.

[Lurker]

. Gear is indeed a shortcut.

No, it's more likely putting a turbo unit in a car, the route still remains the same and you still need fuel, practice and experience to drive it, your just going to get to your destination quicker.

[Andre01]

In a recent forum a board member had a go at me about being on aas, accusing me of not knowing enough about nutrition or training before going on gear. Without debating that accusation, I want to discuss the philosophy behind it and take a somewhat different view from the usual here (for as we all recognise, this is a pretty regular thing to say to someone re juicing).

My thought starts off by asking what is behind the idea that someone needs to qualify with hard work and hard nutrition before 'cheating' with gear. The idea, I think, seems to be that a) one should try and achieve the most possible naturally first, using gear as the means to achieve 'next level' gains which go beyond natural hard work; and b) that for one to get the most out of juicing one needs to know how to train and eat right first.

For many/perhaps most people considering gear these points make a lot of sense, but here is where I take issue with them. I think the premise upon which they rest is an assumption of a common goal. The goal is either success in powerlifting or bodybuilding and the advice thus pertains to using aas appropriately to meet these goals.

But what if one's goals are different?

My own goals are here an excellent example. I don't have any desire to compete in anything strength related. In fact, I don't have any desire to compete at all. I have no desire to stand in my undies in front of a crowd; I don't give a f*ck what others think about my body. I don't care if I am fat, though wouldn't mind having nice abs. I don't want to score chicks; I'm already in a permanent relationship. My goal is simply to lift weights and be a unit. I want to have a solid, functioning, strong body and keep it that way late into life.

With my goals in mind, does this point about nutrition still stand?

Why is it that others feel the right to say when someone is ready to use gear and when not when our goals may be completely different?

I think at the end of the day, we're talking about a substance (indeed an illegal one) that has the ability to change aspects of your body. Like all chemicals it has risks and sides, and it has benefits and desired effects. For me, the biggest caveat regarding aas is knowing the sides and risks and having the maturity to weigh them up for oneself. All other advice must consider a persons goal.

Gentlemen, I welcome your thoughts on this.

I rest my case; I stand by what I said. This is coming from someone that used to weigh at 130kgs in 2005. If you do not have a sound foundation then there is no point in going anywhere near steroids. I have managed to work off my fat and am very happy with my progress I have learnt from these guys and girls and other sources how to keep my weight off. I have no ambition at this stage to compete but there is something said that you need to put the hard yards in before you get a little extra help, and you will have learnt nothing. AS a health professional, my concern will always be for your health.

[maassive]

hes not contradicting himself, he said he doesnt have any interest in competing in it.

No he states that because his reasons for using AAS are different than a powerlifter (gaining strength) or a bodybuilder (gaining muscle) therefore the same principles behind nutrition and training don't apply,INCORRECT. THIS WAS NOT MY ARGUMENT but he then goes onto state that he's using gear because he wants to become a big strong unit, ie his reasons are exactly the same as the forementioned.

Ultimately his body, his choice and the only people I hate are the users without balls who try and convince everyone that they are natty. I just think his prioritys are foolish, but morally no different than dumb kids who spend hundreds of bucks on massgain2000, sizeons, superpump, testfactorx9000 or whatever while neglecting the basics.

Lurker, once again I think you are arguing against a straw man. As I'm not a powerlifter or bodybuilder (so my argument follows) I then do not need to worry about maxing out natural gains first. If I didn't think that nutrition was important, I wouldn't bother asking people for advice about it.

I think you're really missing the experiential side of my perspective, and as such you keep defaulting back to telling me how to do things 'the proper way'.

[Dubble_D]

. Gear is indeed a shortcut.

No, it's more likely putting a turbo unit in a car, the route still remains the same and you still need fuel, practice and experience to drive it, your just going to get to your destination quicker.

I Like the Analogy!

[Specter]

hes not contradicting himself, he said he doesnt have any interest in competing in it.

No he states that because his reasons for using AAS are different than a powerlifter (gaining strength) or a bodybuilder (gaining muscle) therefore the same principles behind nutrition and training don't apply, but he then goes onto state that he's using gear because he wants to become a big strong unit, ie his reasons are exactly the same as the forementioned.

Ultimately his body, his choice and the only people I hate are the users without balls who try and convince everyone that they are natty. I just think his prioritys are foolish, but morally no different than dumb kids who spend hundreds of bucks on massgain2000, sizeons, superpump, testfactorx9000 or whatever while neglecting the basics.

Im Natty! :pfft:

[maassive]

. Gear is indeed a shortcut.

No, it's more likely putting a turbo unit in a car, the route still remains the same and you still need fuel, practice and experience to drive it, your just going to get to your destination quicker.

I Like the Analogy!

x2

[HarryB]

I think what people are commenting is more your basic lack of knowledge. You took me to task when I said running before you learn to crawl etc etc etc and yeah you have chosen to take short cuts just like lots of other people do. But don't think that somehow negates any need to have basic information relating to training and nutrition. I mean when I see someone who is taking aas to basically be average I have to wonder what they are thinking. I guess it comes down to perspective.

Not everyone has competitive goals but like you most of us want to get bigger and stronger and we would all dearly love to maintain that. However experience taught me that guys who start without any foundation of muscle and nutrition etc etc etc don't retain much of anything once the cycles stop and indeed are mentally and physically reliant on aas to even get to the gym and train.

That's enough said on this topic I reckon. Talking in circles!

[oldfella]

. Gear is indeed a shortcut.

No, it's more likely putting a turbo unit in a car, the route still remains the same and you still need fuel, practice and experience to drive it, your just going to get to your destination quicker.

Don't really want to get involved in this - even though I think analogy is good, something must be said for the type of car you whack the turbo into.

[maassive]

I think what people are commenting is more your basic lack of knowledge. You took me to task when I said running before you learn to crawl etc etc etc and yeah you have chosen to take short cuts just like lots of other people do. But don't think that somehow negates any need to have basic information relating to training and nutrition. I mean when I see someone who is taking aas to basically be average I have to wonder what they are thinking. I guess it comes down to perspective.

Not everyone has competitive goals but like you most of us want to get bigger and stronger and we would all dearly love to maintain that. However experience taught me that guys who start without any foundation of muscle and nutrition etc etc etc don't retain much of anything once the cycles stop and indeed are mentally and physically reliant on aas to even get to the gym and train.

That's enough said on this topic I reckon. Talking in circles!

Good post mate. I agree with you, actually. I was more stirring it up for a bit of an interesting debate.

For the record here, I've actually been training since I was 16 (now 25) and achieved some pretty good strength before a back blow out at around 21yrs old. I am scheduled for back surgery later this year and looking forward to that, and I've made it my goal to get some good strength and functionality before the op as I've been advised that the better your body is going into it the faster you recover.

Furthermore, I'm actually seeing pretty good gains on current cycle - eating a lot of mostly good food, training hard and loving it. I've been stereotyped in this debate as someone who takes AAS without care for training and nutrition, and I've tried to let it slide for the sake of the discussion. In reality, this is not true. I'm definitely weakest in my knowledge of nutrition but not ignorant nor lacking the desire to learn more.

Cheers for the debate folks, but by all means if others would like to keep contributing I'm interested in listening to your opinion.

[Sifo-Dyas]

In a recent forum a board member had a go at me about being on aas, accusing me of not knowing enough about nutrition or training before going on gear. Without debating that accusation, I want to discuss the philosophy behind it and take a somewhat different view from the usual here (for as we all recognise, this is a pretty regular thing to say to someone re juicing).

My thought starts off by asking what is behind the idea that someone needs to qualify with hard work and hard nutrition before 'cheating' with gear. The idea, I think, seems to be that a) one should try and achieve the most possible naturally first, using gear as the means to achieve 'next level' gains which go beyond natural hard work; and b) that for one to get the most out of juicing one needs to know how to train and eat right first.

For many/perhaps most people considering gear these points make a lot of sense, but here is where I take issue with them. I think the premise upon which they rest is an assumption of a common goal. The goal is either success in powerlifting or bodybuilding and the advice thus pertains to using aas appropriately to meet these goals.

But what if one's goals are different?

My own goals are here an excellent example. I don't have any desire to compete in anything strength related. In fact, I don't have any desire to compete at all. I have no desire to stand in my undies in front of a crowd; I don't give a f*ck what others think about my body. I don't care if I am fat, though wouldn't mind having nice abs. I don't want to score chicks; I'm already in a permanent relationship. My goal is simply to lift weights and be a unit. I want to have a solid, functioning, strong body and keep it that way late into life.

With my goals in mind, does this point about nutrition still stand?

Why is it that others feel the right to say when someone is ready to use gear and when not when our goals may be completely different?

I think at the end of the day, we're talking about a substance (indeed an illegal one) that has the ability to change aspects of your body. Like all chemicals it has risks and sides, and it has benefits and desired effects. For me, the biggest caveat regarding aas is knowing the sides and risks and having the maturity to weigh them up for oneself. All other advice must consider a persons goal.

Gentlemen, I welcome your thoughts on this.

Only one point was missed in your own speel on juice in relation to qualifying.

There are good quality people out there producing and supplying good quality AAS to (dare I say it...) to other good quality people.

Gear does have its side effects and can be potentially dangerous in the hands of unqualified ignorant people.

When these muppets f*ck it up and end up crook or worse in hospital, it sheds a bad light on the juice and the entire culture which we work very hard to protect.

So when it comes to the supply of "Good Quality" gear, it has nothing to do with making a sale or making a dollar and has everything to do with protecting the source of quality AAS from ignorant muppets that can wreck it for everyone!!!

So yes, qualification is an important part of the gear culture in NZ.

And then we start touching on this crap about gear being a shortcut...lets not fire this up on here too much it only brings out the most ingnorant people to preach their religion. And the answer is simple - If you use gear before you have reached your natural potential then yes you have taken a shortcut...good for you, saves time...go hard... but if you have taken gear after you have reached your natural potential and are now WELL beyond what could ever be achieved naturally then you have used the gear to propel you to a whole new level in the sport or goals you want to achieve. ... And FACT - I could never reach the size I am naturally within a single lifetime of natural training so is that a shortcut??? Have I taken a shortcut to my next life?

P.S. - I am in no way referring to you as one of the "ignorant muppets". To me your personal goals are as good as most of the gear users out there, and for all I know you could have access to information from a supplier that does care about your health and future...?