Gyno

[WANABJAKD]

Thanks wannabe.

It's not so much about the success of your cycles, but more how you phrase things, e.g

personally i just go by itch and it has always worked well.

By putting it this way, you sound like you are an experienced bodybuilder with many cycles under your belt and a decade of training. This is how you regularly come across when giving your opinion. In reality, you say you've done four cycles when you want to impress people, and two cycles when you're trying to justify how small you are - yet neither of these is enough to write like you know everything about cycles.

I'm not trying to start shit with you - quite frankly i'm over that. So this is just to let you know what we mean when we question the comments you make when you try and sound like a pro.

moving on... thanks for your opinion. I think i'll take some adex EOD just to be on the safe side.

Sorry if saying while i'm hot confused some people. What I mean, and those of us who have puffy nips will well know this, is that my nips are always quite puffy unless my body is cold, and then they go normal. That's what I meant. The question really was should I take adex before symptoms, or wait for itching.

I do have a question around water retention. You say that holding water is a sign of higher estrogen levels? Can you source this idea? Can anyone else comment? I thought water retention was just a side from gear...

its hard for me to understand what puffy nipples mean no matter how many images i look at. puffy nipples is often illustrated as gyno where the entire nipple is protruding like a cone, correct? i thought you were refering to your nipples not being hard and smaller, e.g in cold weather, or after a workout; maybe a better way to describe it is a soft nippular look; i usually have this when im at home and warm. i think you need to clarify what you mean.

if you have actual puffy nipples(slight gyno) from puberty there is not much you can do as far as im aware. i cannot advise on this matter, though this is the consensus from the majority of the steroid community.

ive only done 2 cycles...my last cycle that ended was my first real cycle. "always" doesnt to refer to many cycles worth of experience. you have many phases of a steroid cycle where you may or may not need estrogen control; sometimes you may even need to change your dosing protocol according to your sensitivity. these are all ever changing variables that give you that instinct to make the right judgement(for own body).

this instinct is not acquired from many many cycles. the sort of instinct you get from many cycles worth of experience would be, how you respond to certain drugs and their doses, which drugs are better for which applications etc.

[WANABJAKD]

moving on... thanks for your opinion. I think i'll take some adex EOD just to be on the safe side.

I do have a question around water retention. You say that holding water is a sign of higher estrogen levels? Can you source this idea? Can anyone else comment? I thought water retention was just a side from gear...

firstly, the control should be relative to the sensitivity, the frequency is irrelevant. each tab is 1mg, you (typically(based on an assumption of course))wouldnt need more than .25mg(quarter tab) eod, as arimidex is very strong.

secondly, steroids do increase water retention in the muscle as well (IM(intramuscular)).

lastly, estrogen promotes sodium and water retention and because this increases blood volume, it increases the delivery of nutrients to the (imaginary(lol))fetus. dont you wish the body was more robotic and less cognitive?

hope this helps.

[tomsammce]

stop over complicating things wannbejackedoff.... i understand all this shit perfectly well but whenever you go on and on and u have me thinking wtf am i reading.

[farrout]

This is my opinion based on being on various forms of testosterone - patches, cream, oral & now injectable - for a year & taking Arimidex for nearly 9 months.

Get yourself a pill cutter & start taking 0.5 mg adex every fourth day & journal your gyno symptons -you could even take photos for comparisons. The reason I advise such infrequent dosing is that is a powerful drug & starting off with too much too soon can take you sailing past the "sweet spot" for YOU. Then you experience some of the same symptons as high estrogen.A sign of this is no morning wood. If this happens, do not take your next dose until it comes back & then start up again. With this one, you have to be patient.

For what it's worth, I started taking adex when my nips got itchy.

[maassive]

is there any preference between pills and liquid for adex?

[farrout]

is there any preference between pills and liquid for adex?

I've never taken the liquid, sorry man.

[nate225]

Alternative Opinion

Just thought I'd throw this out there - a very experience BBer I know took a very different approach to gyno to those offered above. It was his view that if someone was in the AAS BBing game for a reasonable stint they should forget trying to control gyno with anti estrogens. His reasoning was two-fold; firstly AE's often impact on the effectiveness of some AAS & secondly if you develop gyno you would always struggle to keep in under control. Like many others he opted to get it cut out and not have the hassle.

Thinking his logic through made some sense to me for other reasons. From my (limited theoretical) knowledge of AAS I recall reading that a certain level of estrogen was actually bebeficial to results on cycle - I can't site a paper on this but may have come from the Anabolic Review series? MuscleNZ may know more?

Also overuse of AE's would be detrimental in a number of ways - the decreased IGF-1 levels with nolvadex was one someone raised recently (I'm not confirming this is correct as I haven't sited research). Also its just another compound for your body to process - often AE's are more toxic than the AAS from memory?

The last thing I'd add is that a little estrogen is actually good in men to promote a healthy heart - eliminating this, along with the altered blood lipids & hypertension some AAS users get probably isn't wise.

Nate says "grow em and cut em out"!!

[PeterDolan]

Nate says "grow em and cut em out"!!

Surely in the grand scheme, this would be a more cost effective alternative too?

[samoan_muscle]

is there any preference between pills and liquid for adex?

Have tried both. Both worked well.

Liquid needs to come from a reputable source however.

[tomsammce]

is there any preference between pills and liquid for adex?

Liquid needs to come from a reputable source however.

yup yup!

liquids better... alot cheaper too, this $3 a tab shit is just rediculous.

[WANABJAKD]

is there any preference between pills and liquid for adex?

Liquid needs to come from a reputable source however.

yup yup!

liquids better... alot cheaper too, this $3 a tab shit is just rediculous.

thats not that bad actually, considering one tab will last the average person 8 days. i dont buy domestically, but that seems like a pretty good price dont you think? HG adex, now thats ridiculous lol.

[tomsammce]

Liquid needs to come from a reputable source however.

yup yup!

liquids better... alot cheaper too, this $3 a tab shit is just rediculous.

thats not that bad actually considering one tab will last the average person 8 days. i dont buy domestically but that seems like a pretty good price dont you think? HG adex, now thats ridiculous lol.

i dunno any money u have to spend on anti estrogens is a waste of money in my opinion.

i hate buying it lol

[WANABJAKD]

yup yup!

liquids better... alot cheaper too, this $3 a tab shit is just rediculous.

thats not that bad actually considering one tab will last the average person 8 days. i dont buy domestically but that seems like a pretty good price dont you think? HG adex, now thats ridiculous lol.

i dunno any money u have to spend on anti estrogens is a waste of money in my opinion.

i hate buying it lol

yeah thats right bro, spending money on estrogen should be economical.

just like milk thistle, damn pharmacies...

[genetic freek]

thats not that bad actually considering one tab will last the average person 8 days. i dont buy domestically but that seems like a pretty good price dont you think? HG adex, now thats ridiculous lol.

i dunno any money u have to spend on anti estrogens is a waste of money in my opinion.

i hate buying it lol

yeah thats right bro, spending money on estrogen should be economical.

just like milk thistle, damn pharmacies...

Have you had success using milk thistle for gyno?

[WANABJAKD]

i dunno any money u have to spend on anti estrogens is a waste of money in my opinion.

i hate buying it lol

yeah thats right bro, spending money on estrogen should be economical.

just like milk thistle, damn pharmacies...

Have you had success using milk thistle for gyno?

are you being sarcastic? lol..for the liver...

[train hard]

bro 500mg per week you do not need to take anything personally the only time i ever take any is when i want to get really ripped which is not very often and always offcourse when you do your PCT. Does more harm then good when on a low/moderate AAS dose IMO

[musclenz]

Alternative Opinion

Just thought I'd throw this out there - a very experience BBer I know took a very different approach to gyno to those offered above. It was his view that if someone was in the AAS BBing game for a reasonable stint they should forget trying to control gyno with anti estrogens. His reasoning was two-fold; firstly AE's often impact on the effectiveness of some AAS & secondly if you develop gyno you would always struggle to keep in under control. Like many others he opted to get it cut out and not have the hassle.

Thinking his logic through made some sense to me for other reasons. From my (limited theoretical) knowledge of AAS I recall reading that a certain level of estrogen was actually bebeficial to results on cycle - I can't site a paper on this but may have come from the Anabolic Review series? MuscleNZ may know more?

Also overuse of AE's would be detrimental in a number of ways - the decreased IGF-1 levels with nolvadex was one someone raised recently (I'm not confirming this is correct as I haven't sited research). Also its just another compound for your body to process - often AE's are more toxic than the AAS from memory?

The last thing I'd add is that a little estrogen is actually good in men to promote a healthy heart - eliminating this, along with the altered blood lipids & hypertension some AAS users get probably isn't wise.

Nate says "grow em and cut em out"!!

Surgery is not entirely without ongoing problems. To avoid any further occurances of gyno the entire gland behind the areola needs to be removed but many surgeons are not keen on doing this because of the resulting deformity of the nipple & surrounding tissue. You need to employ a very skilled plastic surgeon or one that is very conversant with gyno removal. Often they will only take out so much of the gland & remaining tissue is still subject to gyno issues. I have heard stories around this subject that would not want you going down the knife path. Also the cost is I believe in excess of NZ$5000. That buys a lot of Letrozole

Yes the male body does need estrogen in order to ensure well-being, bone density, libido, erectile function, muscle growth & brain function - BELIEVE IT OR NOT. Thats why you feel crap when you hit a tough AI like Letro for a few weeks. However, it is effective in lump removal in many cases.

My belief is that guys who are prone to gyno or have pubital gyno thats untreated, should always use a low dose Anti E during a cycle of AAS. The trick is not to take estrogen levels down too low, unless doing lump reversal.

But yes Sir Nathan, SERMs like Nolvadex can limit IGF & Gh natty production & Ai's can be hard on lipids etc. So like every drug there are side effects to always consider.