Tappering Anti-E

[Optimass]

Have been reading up a bit on PCT vs tapper options and there seems to be a lot of supportive information on both sides - below is an extract from another source - the statement seems pretty logical with regard to ER sensitivity. This is the first time I have really seen anyone suggest tappering an anti-e.

Tapering off your anti-E:

As you get down to the 50-25mg per week range you should be tapering off the anti-E as it will no longer be needed to keep your hpta active according to the literature. This is necessary to do on another front, as you need to up-regulate the ER so that it isn't super sensitive to small amounts of estrogen when you finally go off causing late-onset gyno, and even complete shut down... Chronic use of anti-E's causes decreases in estrogen exposure, and just like any drug, if you don't use it for a while, your body becomes more sensitive to it's effects. This means you need to slowly reacclimatize your ER to normal amounts of estrogen aromatisation. You accomplish this by tapering your anti-E so that you should be completely off it by the week you are using only 25mg, which research shows causes absolutely no hpta suppression whatsoever.

I personally haven't used an anti-e post cycle and haven't exceeded 700mg/pwk (total) during a cycle - and tappered in and out. I'm kind of past the need to taper in - not very logical, especially given I have successfully cycled many time in the past and I know how my body responds at different levels.

I'm just not convinced that PCT is required so was hoping to start a thread that everyone could put down some first hand experience.

Would be good to here from anyone that on two different occasions has tapered and gone with a PCT routine and can make a comparison. All experience welcome and do post up links to supporting info.

[musclenz]

I'm not convinced that tapering out on an Anti E in a PCT makes much differenc but one thing to watch is rebound. This can occur after using high levels of AI's like Letrozol. Typically Letro is ramped up from 1mg to 2.5mg over a period of a few days & tapered out the same way to allow the body to adjust. However even with this regime, if you have been using Femara to kill off some gyno lumps or as an anti e after a long & heavy cycle, you need to jump onto a lesser AI like Adrimidex or a SERM like Nolvadex to taper out & avoid rebound for a couple of weeks after the Letro has finished. Many guys have found out the hard way by not doing this & end up with worst gyno than before the treatment started. I would have to check the science on this but pretty sure its documented in studies.

[Optimass]

Wouldn't running test at a low dose of say 50-100mg for 6 weeks after cycle help to reduce the impact of the rebound? i.e this is close to what your body poduces naturally and therefore may allow your body to reach homeostasis with a lessoned risk of complications ... similar to bridging but actually coming off cycle compeltely ...

[musclenz]

Wouldn't running test at a low dose of say 50-100mg for 6 weeks after cycle help to reduce the impact of the rebound? i.e this is close to what your body poduces naturally and therefore may allow your body to reach homeostasis with a lessoned risk of complications ... similar to bridging but actually coming off cycle compeltely ...

Your HPTA would still be shut down by the exogenous test I reckon. What you need to do is restart LH so that natty test production gets going again naturally. Hcg, Clomid &/or by reducing the estrogen / testosterone ratio by using anti e's. Think you would still be cruising Opti

[Optimass]

research buddy - just researching ...

[Optimass]

... hmmmm - I didn't know this ... now I know why they called it MOTHER :pfft:

Increase in coffee consumption. Caffeine intake from all sources is linked with higher estrogen levels regardless of age, body mass index (BMI), caloric intake, smoking, alcohol, and cholesterol intake. Studies have shown that women who consumed at least 500 milligrams of caffeine daily, the equivalent of four or five cups of coffee, had nearly 70% more estrogen during the early follicular phase than women who consume no more than 100 mg of caffeine daily, or less than one cup of coffee. Tea is not much better as it contains about half the amount of caffeine compared to coffee. The exception is herbal tea like chamomile, which contains no caffeine

[Android]

Estrogens and other hormones are routinely found in the US water supply :-)

I've tapered and gained 10kg off low dose and never lost a kg, didnt even detect when I was going from 'on' to natty...first cycle.

Now I wouldn't do it but for whatever reason it worked. No water retention, 12 wk cycle, tapered up and down was common practice back then with crowd I was around.

First cycle is always special have found most people wish they were on their first again so could just b luck.

Now though, longer the taper longer u are on low levels and natty won't kick in until every last drop of exogenous test has gone...then the natty process will begin. Hence why I don't finish on Sustanon.

I now finish on orals and/or short-acting gear so I can take Nolvadex for least amount of time.

e.g. 2 weeks b4 end I take last Test-E or C then Prop every 2 days maybe dbols, then last 3-4 days I start Nolvadex and go for 3 weeks. Have been using DHEA as well and after 3-4 weeks everything has dropped and operating as usual.

Only difference to most is i do longer lower dose for longer cycle, if u don't use alot of gear to grow either it may suit. Others will need different strategy.

[samoan_muscle]

I'm not convinced that tapering out on an Anti E in a PCT makes much differenc but one thing to watch is rebound. This can occur after using high levels of AI's like Letrozol. Typically Letro is ramped up from 1mg to 2.5mg over a period of a few days & tapered out the same way to allow the body to adjust. However even with this regime, if you have been using Femara to kill off some gyno lumps or as an anti e after a long & heavy cycle, you need to jump onto a lesser AI like Adrimidex or a SERM like Nolvadex to taper out & avoid rebound for a couple of weeks after the Letro has finished. Many guys have found out the hard way by not doing this & end up with worst gyno than before the treatment started. I would have to check the science on this but pretty sure its documented in studies.

Switching to Arimidex after using Letro, does this apply only to someone on PCT?

I'm currently using Letro to reduce my gyno lump but am not on PCT.

[Riccardo]

I would say yes because your natty test levels will be quite high and therefore a lot of test available to be converted once you stop the letro. that combined with sensitized ERs = gyno.

[musclenz]

I'm not convinced that tapering out on an Anti E in a PCT makes much differenc but one thing to watch is rebound. This can occur after using high levels of AI's like Letrozol. Typically Letro is ramped up from 1mg to 2.5mg over a period of a few days & tapered out the same way to allow the body to adjust. However even with this regime, if you have been using Femara to kill off some gyno lumps or as an anti e after a long & heavy cycle, you need to jump onto a lesser AI like Adrimidex or a SERM like Nolvadex to taper out & avoid rebound for a couple of weeks after the Letro has finished. Many guys have found out the hard way by not doing this & end up with worst gyno than before the treatment started. I would have to check the science on this but pretty sure its documented in studies.

Switching to Arimidex after using Letro, does this apply only to someone on PCT?

I'm currently using Letro to reduce my gyno lump but am not on PCT.

No its just as important on a gyno reversal cycle SM. You will probably know of some guys that have ongoing gyno issues. Often this is due to the rebound effect we have discussed. If you are gyno prone its not a bad idea to have some estrogen control going on most of the time. Nolva at 20mg E3D can be enough to keep it from flaring up but if you put in aromatasing gear like Dbol, Drol, Deca its a good idea to run that dose up to E2D or ED. You can alternate using an AI in low dose the same way. Mix it up just like you do with your AAS.

[Chemo]

... hmmmm - I didn't know this ... now I know why they called it MOTHER :pfft:

Increase in coffee consumption. Caffeine intake from all sources is linked with higher estrogen levels regardless of age, body mass index (BMI), caloric intake, smoking, alcohol, and cholesterol intake. Studies have shown that women who consumed at least 500 milligrams of caffeine daily, the equivalent of four or five cups of coffee, had nearly 70% more estrogen during the early follicular phase than women who consume no more than 100 mg of caffeine daily, or less than one cup of coffee. Tea is not much better as it contains about half the amount of caffeine compared to coffee. The exception is herbal tea like chamomile, which contains no caffeine

Your shitting me...this is just women right? I love my coffee :C

[Chemo]

I'm not convinced that tapering out on an Anti E in a PCT makes much differenc but one thing to watch is rebound. This can occur after using high levels of AI's like Letrozol. Typically Letro is ramped up from 1mg to 2.5mg over a period of a few days & tapered out the same way to allow the body to adjust. However even with this regime, if you have been using Femara to kill off some gyno lumps or as an anti e after a long & heavy cycle, you need to jump onto a lesser AI like Adrimidex or a SERM like Nolvadex to taper out & avoid rebound for a couple of weeks after the Letro has finished. Many guys have found out the hard way by not doing this & end up with worst gyno than before the treatment started. I would have to check the science on this but pretty sure its documented in studies.

Good to know.

At what dosage of AAS is that sorta PCT strategy typically needed?

[musclenz]

I'm not convinced that tapering out on an Anti E in a PCT makes much differenc but one thing to watch is rebound. This can occur after using high levels of AI's like Letrozol. Typically Letro is ramped up from 1mg to 2.5mg over a period of a few days & tapered out the same way to allow the body to adjust. However even with this regime, if you have been using Femara to kill off some gyno lumps or as an anti e after a long & heavy cycle, you need to jump onto a lesser AI like Adrimidex or a SERM like Nolvadex to taper out & avoid rebound for a couple of weeks after the Letro has finished. Many guys have found out the hard way by not doing this & end up with worst gyno than before the treatment started. I would have to check the science on this but pretty sure its documented in studies.

Good to know.

At what dosage of AAS is that sorta PCT strategy typically needed?

Rebound is fairly common after using Letrozole (Femara) at 2.5mg ed for 4 weeks or more either in a PCT or in gyno lump removal. Normally if Letro is used in PCT I would be going at 1mg (or half 2.5mg tab) ed for about 3 weeks then running Nolva 20mg ed for 2 weeks. Letro is a strong AI. If using say Aromasin you should not need to taper out on Nolva but its still a good idea even at 20mg EOD for 2 more weeks. Its a bit subject to your cycle ie length& doses/compounds used. PCT should reflect the cycle in its makeup IMO. Other thing to consider is if Hcg has been used to jumpstart LH. This can reduce the need for the 2 proned attack on estrogen because your natty test should kick in earlier & balance the test/estro ratio quicker. THese are sort of my theories & I have applied them to peoples PCTs with pretty good success. Not sayin tho, they are the Holy Grail.

[Sifo-Dyas]

I have done done a lot with estrogen control and low dose tapering etc over the last 10 years.

Tapering down AAS doses was not effective for me. Going from hi dose (1-3g/week) to low dose (160mg/week) works well.

Everyone has a different sensitivity to estrogen but regardless it is vital to manage estrogen during a cycle. I can do this with masteron and/or Proviron. More sensitive people will need to use an AI at very low dose EOD

Two weeks before the end of a cycle its important to lower the blood estrogen level with a very good AI such as femara at a decent dose like 2.5mg/day. (or 1mg/day if using Arimidex or aromasin) Once the cycle has finished I will drop to 160mg/week and continue the AI at top dose for 2 weeks and then either lower the AI by 75% or switch to 25mg daily of Proviron.

After 5 weeks of low dose and estrogen control I can then start PCT and clean up or jump straight back on to another mass phase depending on my goals.

The worse thing you can do is to try and eliminate estrogen altogether or take to much estrogen control while trying to grow. This will cause a lot of discomfort, night sweats and less intensity and training aggression.