build muscle, burn fat at the same time?

[carve]

this is a really tricky one for me

can you really build muscle and lose fat at the same time?!

my understanding of this is that in order to build muscle you must take in extra calories ........BUT.......to burn fat you need a calorie deficit :-O

what do you guys reckon? any help is appreciated!

[lemon]

I presume if you somehow magically knew the exact requirements your body needed and still making it resort to fat stores, but that making it just enough. You could probably very well so do both.

But its unlikely.

That's my view.

But what is possible is to gain muscle and lose body fat %. Although you would still be getting fatter. Your weight would be increasing faster than the fat giving a lesser fat %.

[bob26]

for someone brand new into weight training yes this is definatly possible. for someone that has been doing it for some time not so easy.

[nate225]

Without being able to cite any actual research I'd have to agree with Lemon for a natural athlete. Potentially Bob has a point though for a very novice athlete holding little additional muscle than they have from day to day activities.

Plenty of athletes using AAS / Growth Hormone, and even non-athletes in the anti-aging movements have shown it is possible to increase muscle mass whilst becoming leaner while using exogenous hormone / peptide support.

I'm guessing you dont fit into the category described above Carve, so essentially the answer is NO (unless you're a super newbie).

Pick your goal - mass gain or fat loss!

[Chemo]

Definitely doable, but "lean gaining" its like a drive from christchurch to invercargil.

Its long, takes some focus and you dont see anything interesting on the way down there.

I like to bulk and cut now, you gain fat with the muscle but you can move more weight and see change, That is a buzz that keeps me going anyway.

I knew an experienced guy in chch who would bulk and cut in small 2-3 month blocks. I never mastered it but that could work for you. Its similar to gaining muscle and loosing bf, you will always be heading in that upward trend but with more of a chance to see measurable results.

[Chemo]

Definitely doable, but "lean gaining" its like a drive from christchurch to invercargil.

Its long, takes some focus and you dont see anything interesting on the way down there.

I like to bulk and cut now, you gain fat with the muscle but you can move more weight and see change, That is a buzz that keeps me going anyway.

I knew an experienced guy in chch who would bulk and cut in small 2-3 month blocks. I never mastered it but that could work for you. Its similar to gaining muscle and loosing bf, you will always be heading in that upward trend but with more of a chance to see measurable results.

[HarryB]

I used to do a 2 week surplus 2 week surplus 2 week deficit cals programme. Did it for about 6 months in between comps, worked really really well for giving me decent gains without much fat gain at all. Just a lot of work involved in the organising of food etc etc etc

[rovr4on]

I'd say keep your current diet, with extra protein. If your eating shit, then eat cleaner, that way you can gain lean muscle as well as lose fat. When you get down to 13-15% BF then consider eating more food for more bulk. That way you get to see the results throughout, becoming lean will show more definition of the muscles you have been working, then bulking again will make you bigger. If you go for bulk now, you may just be too big to really see the results to get that confidence going if your a newbie.

[samoan_muscle]

I used to do a 2 week surplus 2 week surplus 2 week deficit cals programme. Did it for about 6 months in between comps, worked really really well for giving me decent gains without much fat gain at all. Just a lot of work involved in the organising of food etc etc etc

Thats interesting...how much surplus/deficit are you talking?

[HarryB]

I experimented with it because I wanted to stay in reasonable shape, so I went a 1000 cals over and 500 under. On the deficit weeks I would also do higher rep workouts and usually one more workout a week, the surplus weeks I would drop a workout and lower rep. It worked really well.

[drizzt]

I don't think it's as impossible as people might think, I think I did ok at it not long ago.

I was a chubby ~100kg (admittedly, with a decent strength/athletic base underneath) - lost >10kg, but set PBs on heaps of lifts. Ended up leaner, lighter, and a lot stronger than when I started out.

I think the reasons for it are going from complete chaos in the diet, to a pretty well controlled one (dropping booze +sugars), from mucking around in the gym a few times per week during rugby season to a well structured weights program (with more emphasis on heavy lifting), and from just rugby + rugby trainings to taking up boxing classes and other High intensity stuff.

Focus, make the changes, and you can do it. Not easy at all, but not impossible :nod:

I experimented with it because I wanted to stay in reasonable shape, so I went a 1000 cals over and 500 under. On the deficit weeks I would also do higher rep workouts and usually one more workout a week, the surplus weeks I would drop a workout and lower rep. It worked really well.

Cool method Harry, I've done - and do - days where I cycled calories up and down (never really counted though ) but cycling by the week is an interesting one :nod:

[HarryB]

I actually read about it in a book by Bill Phillips.

The idea is that you deplete your body for 2 hard weeks and basically milk the rebound for 2 weeks.

[Pseudonym]

Funny you should mention this one Harry - I've just started playing around with this theory myself. Too early for me to rate it yet, but it seemed like an idea that was worth a shot.

[Ronin]

Interesting. Sounds like a similar line of reasoning to one that I've been pondering ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11672 ). Nice to see that I might be on a right track

[HarryB]

Funny you should mention this one Harry - I've just started playing around with this theory myself. Too early for me to rate it yet, but it seemed like an idea that was worth a shot.

I gave it a really good run for a good 6 to 8 months and it worked out very well indeed. Was a great way to maintain condition and still progress from one show to the next.

[longusernameusername]

Heard someone talking about this its pretty much bro talk but you guys decide if there is anything scientific in it.

How about while bulking you supplement with stuff like carnitine or other supplements which acts as fat metabolizers, which uses fat for fuel, gets it into the mitochondria for energy. You could be in caloric surplus but supplementing this before gym workout?

[Chemo]

Intermittent Fasting?

Maybe not the best way to bulk, but people following that program seem to be getting good results.

[maassive]

re this topic, there is one thing I don't really understand that I would love to get cleared up.

I've read multiple times that the only way to gain muscle is to exceed your calorie requirements. What I don't understand is why this is necessary if you have sufficient protein intake and sufficient fat storage for fuel.

To put that another way, let's say I'm working my ass off at the gym and have perfect protein intake, plus a reasonable amount of carbs and fat so body is not catabolic, shouldn't this be the right formula for slow lean muscle gains?

[huck1972]

i agree that for someone getting back into training, one can certainly build some nice muscle and burn the fat off at the same time.

for a female or male, train hard do some decent poundage, train smart (anyone can lift a weight but to do it where you get the most out of the movement), supplements - what was i on? Kre-akylyn (bad spelling) and Steronilezim (something or other), it's legal across the counter.

With some clean nutrition, simple and strict.

And a shit load of 5am power walks, train 2 bodyparts a day (better to have a split so you can really pound each bodypart).

A nice little 20-30 minute run on the old treadmill, post workout.

Then just before beddy bye byes, a nice little power walk in the evening to really shred your ass up.

3-4 months Results: bodyweight stayed the same 69kg

bodyfat from 17% to 12.5%

After a while, it became easy - once you're in the zone, you're in the zone. Even last week of comp, carb depleting - it was crazy I was at my strongest and had heaps of energy. I just didn't listen to all the whingers.

But then, I'm just a gurl.

[ThePman]

re this topic, there is one thing I don't really understand that I would love to get cleared up.

I've read multiple times that the only way to gain muscle is to exceed your calorie requirements. What I don't understand is why this is necessary if you have sufficient protein intake and sufficient fat storage for fuel.

To put that another way, let's say I'm working my ass off at the gym and have perfect protein intake, plus a reasonable amount of carbs and fat so body is not catabolic, shouldn't this be the right formula for slow lean muscle gains?

Body wants to hold fat. It doesn't want to build muscle.

Beyond a threshold, muscle becomes a liability. Believe it or not, a lot of your bodyweight is regulated by the brain, based on your body fat levels, food intake, and several other variables. You reach an equilibrium determined by your physiology ("genetics"), and after that point it's very hard to add muscle, even by overeating.

Protein alone is enough to trigger a response in the muscle (along with training) but you still have to deal with a body that is doing what it can to *not* build more tissue if it can help it.

[devil_911]

good post ThePman

[longusernameusername]

i agree that for someone getting back into training, one can certainly build some nice muscle and burn the fat off at the same time.

for a female or male, train hard do some decent poundage, train smart (anyone can lift a weight but to do it where you get the most out of the movement), supplements - what was i on? Kre-akylyn (bad spelling) and Steronilezim (something or other), it's legal across the counter.

what is that again? chur.