Quality of whey - bioavailability and microfractions

[WANABJAKD]

no offense but dont you guys think its a waste of time to debate protein powder? its not a natural food source that is stripped of its co-factors reducing its digestibility; regardless of its bio-availability, its typically consumed in liquid form and absorbs too quickly which isnt effective at promoting any sort of anabolic environment apart from pwo and upon waking up.

not sure why you guys debate protein powder being the spec that it is in the entirety of nutrition when even nutrition in itself is a limited factor of growth.

protein powder to me is nothing more than a filler that i add it to bring up the protein profile in some of my meals; i.e mash potatoes, homemade mass shakes or homemade protein bars. the only other time ill have a shake is when i wake up for a piss or just before i sleep.

just trying to give some fresh perspective here.

[Sims]

protein powder to me is nothing more than a filler that i add it to bring up the protein profile in some of my meals; i.e mash potatoes, homemade mass shakes or homemade protein bars. the only other time ill have a shake is when i wake up for a piss or just before i sleep.

I only use protein powder for an immediate snack on the way home from the gym, until I can get at the real food at the quality of it interest me.

I would of thought if you are having it with your real food (I'm no guru but would prefer to eat more real food instead) you would be even more interested in it? - its a large part of your diet if you start doing that sort of thing.

[mike27]

yeah i agree also

im only havin it pwo directly after training. so im after some quality pp. then i have my pwo meal which is obvisouly food.

i used to have pp shakes all the time.... now i know better and have a better structed diet which includes a range of proteins,complex carbs and good fats, all from food

[WANABJAKD]

protein powder to me is nothing more than a filler that i add it to bring up the protein profile in some of my meals; i.e mash potatoes, homemade mass shakes or homemade protein bars. the only other time ill have a shake is when i wake up for a piss or just before i sleep.

I only use protein powder for an immediate snack on the way home from the gym, until I can get at the real food at the quality of it interest me.

I would of thought if you are having it with your real food (I'm no guru but would prefer to eat more real food instead) you would be even more interested in it? - its a large part of your diet if you start doing that sort of thing.

sims, im having a hard time following your post, could you speak more clearly and also elaborate?

protein, mass gainers and meal replacement powders and all those other products are a waste of time...you cannot trust the source of the quality of nutrients in the meal replacement powders, nor can you trust the quality of the carbohydrates used in mass gainer powders; all of these are useless. whey is only useful when you wake up or post workout, unless your able to slow down its absorption by using it in a mass shake with for example blended tuna peanut, butter, eggs...get creative lol

eg. one can of tuna isnt enough protein for me, so i choose to mix protein powder with my tuna(rather than eating two cans, wasting money and straining my kidneys, then coming on nzbb and telling everyone how bad ass i am that i eat two in a meal ) and mashed potatoes to increase the protein profile...amminos are amminos, while i am slowing down the whey's absorption, it counts for as much as any other food source.

[jimjim83]

protein powder to me is nothing more than a filler that i add it to bring up the protein profile in some of my meals; i.e mash potatoes, homemade mass shakes or homemade protein bars. the only other time ill have a shake is when i wake up for a piss or just before i sleep.

I only use protein powder for an immediate snack on the way home from the gym, until I can get at the real food at the quality of it interest me.

I would of thought if you are having it with your real food (I'm no guru but would prefer to eat more real food instead) you would be even more interested in it? - its a large part of your diet if you start doing that sort of thing.

sims, im having a hard time following your post, could you speak more clearly and also elaborate?

protein, mass gainers and meal replacement powders and all those other products are a waste of time...you cannot trust the source of the quality of nutrients in the meal replacement powders, nor can you trust the quality of the carbohydrates used in mass gainer powders; all of these are useless. whey is only useful when you wake up or post workout, unless your able to slow down its absorption by using it in a mass shake with for example blended tuna peanut, butter, eggs...get creative lol

eg. one can of tuna isnt enough protein for me, so i choose to mix protein powder with my tuna(rather than eating two cans, wasting money and straining my kidneys, then coming on nzbb and telling everyone how bad ass i am that i eat two in a meal ) and mashed potatoes to increase the protein profile...amminos are amminos, while i am slowing down the whey's absorption, it counts for as much as any other food source.

What the hell is wrong with you that would be vomit material!! :puke:

[WANABJAKD]

honestly jim, its great. you think unflavoured protein would be twice as bad right? think again! its exaclty like making mash potatoes when using milk; besides, whey is derived from milk, right? it turns the mash potatoes' consistency exactly the same! makes it so smooth to down, i love it. then again im a freak? :pfft:

[jimjim83]

honestly jim, its great. you think unflavoured protein would be twice as bad right? think again! its exaclty like making mash potatoes when using milk; besides, whey is derived from milk, right? it turns the mash potatoes' consistency exactly the same! makes it so smooth to down, i love it. then again im a freak? :pfft:

Ill pass on that!

[Flex]

no offense but dont you guys think its a waste of time to debate protein powder?

Depends what you want from your protein? If you want a protein powder to help aid immune system, prevent overtraining, high in BCAA content, then I think it's fair to debate the particular qualities of a whey protein.

If you think that protein is protein then that's fine. There are benefits to all protein sources not just to specifically to whey. I guess you probably don't eat salmon or fatty fish for the fish oils and efa's, or red meat for creatine like some old school dudes, or casein and cottage cheese for its slow absorption and high glutamine content, egg for its good BV and moderate apsorption rates, chicken breast for its high protein content, tuna for its low fat and low carb yet high protein ratios.

In fact there's probably no need to eat complete proteins from animal proteins for all the essential amino acids, you could rely on incomplete vegetable and plant based proteins for everything as a long as you get a good variety.

You seem to think some wholefood proteins are going to provide an anabolic environment so you must care somewhat about the functional aspects of protein sources (in addition to the aminos) yet dismiss our debate on whey proteins functional benefits.

straining my kidneys

This is a myth. If you are training you aren't going to have issues unless you have some sort of renal issue. Why do so many people still bang on about kidney problems from protein?

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25

"While protein restriction may be appropriate for treatment of existing kidney disease, we find no significant evidence for a detrimental effect of high protein intakes on kidney function in healthy persons after centuries of a high protein Western diet. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... 00m,isrctn

Dietary protein and renal function.

King AJ, Levey AS.

Abstract

Protein intake has been recognized as a modulator of renal function for over half a century. This review analyzes the renal response induced by changes in habitual protein intake and with acute amino acid infusion or a meat meal in humans and animals. The pattern and magnitude of changes in GFR and creatinine clearance are examined along with a discussion of the effect of the variability of these measurements among individuals and populations on the interpretation of clinical studies. Potential mechanisms of protein-induced changes in GFR and creatinine clearance are examined, including changes in the hormonal milieu, glomerular hemodynamics, and other intrarenal processes. Habitual dietary protein consumption varies significantly with respect to age, gender, and lean body mass--factors that are well known to influence GFR. This correlation raises the possibility that (1) variation in dietary protein intake may account, at least in part, for the differences in renal function among individuals; and (2) the level of protein intake should be assessed in defining the normal range of renal function.

If you want some evidence to support your theory about kidney damage there are some studies here that show high protein diets might not be healthy but all the test subjects are sedentary plebs, children or bedridden trauma patients

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/886.long

[WANABJAKD]

no offense but dont you guys think its a waste of time to debate protein powder?

Depends what you want from your protein? If you want a protein powder to help aid immune system, prevent overtraining, high in BCAA content, then I think it's fair to debate the particular qualities of a whey protein.

If you think that protein is protein then that's fine. There are benefits to all protein sources not just to specifically to whey. I guess you probably don't eat salmon or fatty fish for the fish oils and efa's, or red meat for creatine like some old school dudes, or casein and cottage cheese for its slow absorption and high glutamine content, egg for its good BV and moderate apsorption rates, chicken breast for its high protein content, tuna for its low fat and low carb yet high protein ratios.

In fact there's probably no need to eat complete proteins from animal proteins for all the essential amino acids, you could rely on incomplete vegetable and plant based proteins for everything as a long as you get a good variety.

You seem to think some wholefood proteins are going to provide an anabolic environment so you must care somewhat about the functional aspects of protein sources (in addition to the aminos) yet dismiss our debate on whey proteins functional benefits.

straining my kidneys

This is a myth. If you are training you aren't going to have issues unless you have some sort of renal issue. Why do so many people still bang on about kidney problems from protein?

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/25

"While protein restriction may be appropriate for treatment of existing kidney disease, we find no significant evidence for a detrimental effect of high protein intakes on kidney function in healthy persons after centuries of a high protein Western diet. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... 00m,isrctn

Dietary protein and renal function.

King AJ, Levey AS.

Abstract

Protein intake has been recognized as a modulator of renal function for over half a century. This review analyzes the renal response induced by changes in habitual protein intake and with acute amino acid infusion or a meat meal in humans and animals. The pattern and magnitude of changes in GFR and creatinine clearance are examined along with a discussion of the effect of the variability of these measurements among individuals and populations on the interpretation of clinical studies. Potential mechanisms of protein-induced changes in GFR and creatinine clearance are examined, including changes in the hormonal milieu, glomerular hemodynamics, and other intrarenal processes. Habitual dietary protein consumption varies significantly with respect to age, gender, and lean body mass--factors that are well known to influence GFR. This correlation raises the possibility that (1) variation in dietary protein intake may account, at least in part, for the differences in renal function among individuals; and (2) the level of protein intake should be assessed in defining the normal range of renal function.

If you want some evidence to support your theory about kidney damage there are some studies here that show high protein diets might not be healthy but all the test subjects are sedentary plebs, children or bedridden trauma patients

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/886.long

nothing wrong with proteinuria? theres obviously way too much research on both sides of the fence, but why risk it if it is inncessary to consume too much protein and being scientifically proven aswell? if your natural, there is no reason to consume alot of protein.

You seem to think some wholefood proteins are going to provide an anabolic environment so you must care somewhat about the functional aspects of protein sources (in addition to the aminos) yet dismiss our debate on whey proteins functional benefits.

different amminos serve different functions in the body, some higher in ratio in certain foods thans others. rather than worrying about how many amminos or which amminos derived from what food sources, worry about the quality of the protein(its biological value and digestibility)

for the record i eat most common animal meats and their bi products. im a sole believer of eating food for their nutritional calories, rather than only for energy; for example, nuts for zinc and other minerals, aswell as their healthy fats. i also cook with alot of herbs, spices and vegetables.

[Flex]

different amminos serve different functions in the body, some higher in ratio in certain foods thans others. rather than worrying about how many amminos or which amminos derived from what food sources, worry about the quality of the protein(its biological value and digestibility)

for the record i eat most common animal meats and their bi products. im a sole believer of eating food for their nutritional calories, rather than only for energy; for example, nuts for zinc and other minerals, aswell as their healthy fats. i also cook with alot of herbs, spices and vegetables.

Well then why do you think it is a waste of time debating the relative quailty of whey proteins. You eat nuts for zinc, some people eat whey protein for it's lactoferrin or IGG's not just the protein. Same thing isn't it?

[WANABJAKD]

different amminos serve different functions in the body, some higher in ratio in certain foods thans others. rather than worrying about how many amminos or which amminos derived from what food sources, worry about the quality of the protein(its biological value and digestibility)

for the record i eat most common animal meats and their bi products. im a sole believer of eating food for their nutritional calories, rather than only for energy; for example, nuts for zinc and other minerals, aswell as their healthy fats. i also cook with alot of herbs, spices and vegetables.

Well then why do you think it is a waste of time debating the relative quailty of whey proteins. You eat nuts for zinc, some people eat whey protein for it's lactoferrin or IGG's not just the protein. Same thing isn't it?

because all whey proteins are derivatives of milk which are refined and stripped of their co-factors. vitamins and minerals are vital for our existence where as something like(and of all examples) lactoferrin (if i recall)can be secreted endogenously and in any case can obviously be attained from its original food source(milk).

[Flex]

lactoferrin.... can obviously be attained from its original food source(milk).

Yeah, sure thing, you can either drink 1.5 litres of whole milk or have a 30g serve of a biologically intact whey protein concentrate to get 300mg of Lactoferrin.

because all whey proteins are derivatives of milk which are refined and stripped of their co-factors.

Yes whey protein is from cows milk. I was trying to get across that a whey protein that maintains these "cofactors" is better than one that is "refined and stripped of their co-factors", which is what you are now arguing for so we must be in agreement.

[WANABJAKD]

lactoferrin.... can obviously be attained from its original food source(milk).

Yeah, sure thing, you can either drink 1.5 litres of whole milk or have a 30g serve of a biologically intact whey protein concentrate to get 300mg of Lactoferrin.

because all whey proteins are derivatives of milk which are refined and stripped of their co-factors.

Yes whey protein is from cows milk. I was trying to get across that a whey protein that maintains these "cofactors" is better than one that is "refined and stripped of their co-factors", which is what you are now arguing for so we must be in agreement.

can show me some literature that suggests whey digestibility is equal to milk?

[Flex]

can show me some literature that suggests whey digestibility is equal to milk?

What do you mean?

[WANABJAKD]

can show me some literature that suggests whey digestibility is equal to milk?

What do you mean?

the digestibility of protein, by which co-factors are concerned.

[Flex]

the digestibility of protein, by which co-factors are concerned.

Is there evidence to show that the cofactors, by which I assume you mean the bioactive microfractions eg lactoferrin, GMP's etc, in whey protein aren't absorbed as well as they are from milk.

[Flex]

nothing wrong with proteinuria?

What does Proteinuria have to do with the whey protein? I'd never heard of it but as far as I can tell it's mainly caused by diabetes, immune disorders, kidney cancer or too much protein in the blood. From further reading too much protein in the blood is not caused by excessive protein in the diet however can be caused by the disease "Multiple Myeloma". None of which has anything to do with with whey protein or too much protein in the diet of a bodybuilder.

[vracula]

god Damn flex!!This your best super smart rant yet!good info! :pfft:

[Flex]

WANABJAKD I think I might be wasting my time with you. I just read your steroid post and when you make statements like the ones below I'm not sure I'm going to get far with you. Unless you have something of great importance to discuss I think I might end it.

oh boy, you just dont get it do you?

if you eat enough and train hard enough the only thing that will determine how big and fast you grow is how much gear you run and time. plain and simple! you can cry like a little bitch or you can accept the reality for what it is!

you can only eat and metabolize so much food...the more drugs you use the more food you can utilize...so clearly you need to accommodate nutrition to your drug protocol.

with enough gear and time accommodating nutrition for growth, why not?

[WANABJAKD]

the digestibility of protein, by which co-factors are concerned.

Is there evidence to show that the cofactors, by which I assume you mean the bioactive microfractions eg lactoferrin, GMP's etc, in whey protein aren't absorbed as well as they are from milk.

you want me to provide the data that you are arguing against? :clap:

nothing wrong with proteinuria?

What does Proteinuria have to do with the whey protein? I'd never heard of it but as far as I can tell it's mainly caused by diabetes, immune disorders, kidney cancer or too much protein in the blood. From further reading too much protein in the blood is not caused by excessive protein in the diet however can be caused by the disease "Multiple Myeloma". None of which has anything to do with with whey protein or too much protein in the diet of a bodybuilder.

your not serious, are you? there are only a handful of direct causes of proteinuria, none of these are of which that you stated. one of the primary causes is....guess what? excess protein in the diet.

your kidneys filter your blood and rid it of toxins; protein that cannot be digested or excess protein is filtered by the kidneys and excreted through your urine.

whats proteinuria go to do with it? you were the one that suggested it was a myth.

[Plaintiff]

Hey Flex,

After reading those studies you posted on the whey isolate thread, I was curious whether your views on hydrolysed whey have altered at all?

Also, I've noticed a lot of talk about sustained realease proteins, like caesin, versus quickly absorbed proteins such as isolate, and how it's good to have a mix of the two to maintain an 'anabolic environment'.

This makes sense to me in terms of carbohydrate metabolism, but I have never found it that convincing when it comes to protein. I thought it was just a marketing ploy by manufacturer's so they could mix some cheap protein in with the whey to keep costs down.

Would be interested to hear your views.