Insulin, When are you ready?

[tomsammce]

and as for shakes and drowsy that comment was actually based on my own experiences sure the idea is to not get to that... but this is life and sometimes after u come home from gym after injecting some slin shit comes up ur girlfriend might want soem help lifting and movign soem shit around the house for example so u do it... i aint a pro bodybuilder and just come home and sit on my arse everynight after gym i got a work life and social life... so i got shakes coz i moved around too much after taking... so what?? i had shit ready and sorted it so it didnt escalate into a problem.

if you can come home after gym and sit down for 4 hours not needing to have simple sugars on hand then thats good for u bro, im just saying for my sake and others sake.. better to be safe than sorry eh

[Android]

and as for shakes and drowsy that comment was actually based on my own experiences sure the idea is to not get to that... but this is life and sometimes after u come home from gym after injecting some slin shit comes up ur girlfriend might want soem help lifting and movign soem shit around the house for example so u do it... i aint a pro bodybuilder and just come home and sit on my arse everynight after gym i got a work life and social life... so i got shakes coz i moved around too much after taking... so what?? i had shit ready and sorted it so it didnt escalate into a problem.

if you can come home after gym and sit down for 4 hours not needing to have simple sugars on hand then thats good for u bro, im just saying for my sake and others sake.. better to be safe than sorry eh

Everything u say here screams good reasons not to take it. And if u do decide despite work and personal issues arising you'd take my advice and do 2iu a shot not the 7-9iu for those very reasons.

What so bad about the gear u were taking that made u decide u needed more

[tomsammce]

and as for shakes and drowsy that comment was actually based on my own experiences sure the idea is to not get to that... but this is life and sometimes after u come home from gym after injecting some slin shit comes up ur girlfriend might want soem help lifting and movign soem shit around the house for example so u do it... i aint a pro bodybuilder and just come home and sit on my arse everynight after gym i got a work life and social life... so i got shakes coz i moved around too much after taking... so what?? i had shit ready and sorted it so it didnt escalate into a problem.

if you can come home after gym and sit down for 4 hours not needing to have simple sugars on hand then thats good for u bro, im just saying for my sake and others sake.. better to be safe than sorry eh

Everything u say here screams good reasons not to take it. And if u do decide despite work and personal issues arising you'd take my advice and do 2iu a shot not the 7-9iu for those very reasons.

What so bad about the gear u were taking that made u decide u needed more

why u need it? my back looks better than yrs in ur video u posted and i lift more weight than you... so i should ask u the question.

mate im know what im doing... 2iu is what most people would begin on then work they're way up to what they feel comfortable the standard and most common protocol would be about 1iu per 10kg of body weight for a post workout shot. obviously you wouldnt start on this as i said at start of paragraph. as dosages increase so does the amount of sugars u need to ingest with it.

2iu pwo is a very low dose and personally i wouldnt bother. im not a doctor and neither are you so im not advocating ppl go and use it im just trying to help them so if they do decide they know what to do.

your no help at all saying they shouldnt take it coz its dangerous and bad when ur taking it yourself. its not dangerous if you do properly is what im saying. crossing the road can be just as dangerous if the person crossing it is an idiot

[Android]

You win!

This was a public forum for "opinions" on when to start using insulin and it turns out your back is bigger than mine, shoot there'll b thousands with backs bigger than mine not sure of your point..is it...you're bigger, therefore you are?

Use PM if u must hurl crap at me like that

[thatwaslight]

You win!

This was a public forum for "opinions" on when to start using insulin and it turns out your back is bigger than mine, shoot there'll b thousands with backs bigger than mine not sure of your point..is it...you're bigger, therefore you are?

Use PM if u must hurl crap at me like that

lol im over the shit talk but your the one that wrote my physique off from one photo mate....maybe is should talk to kelly slater for advice on training bit of the pot calling the kettle black........ just sayin

anyway lets get over the bollocks and get back to business is 2iu suffecient? or a waste of time?

[tomsammce]

You win!

This was a public forum for "opinions" on when to start using insulin and it turns out your back is bigger than mine, shoot there'll b thousands with backs bigger than mine not sure of your point..is it...you're bigger, therefore you are?

Use PM if u must hurl crap at me like that

well u questioned me on why i think i need to use insulin. and i was just saying if you think your own use is acceptable then mine must be too, i dont know what your basing your pre requisites of your so called accepted use on. so what is your opinion of when should someone use it? is it an age thing to u or a weight thing or what?

i dont have anything against you and think you are one of the more knowledagble posters and you walk the walk also. but when u say something that your not really qualified to say in that who should and shouldnt use slin and that using 7-9iu of slin is bad when infact is quite common practise. i just wanted to say what i thought.

[clash]

Tomsammce is spot on. Know what you are doing before you jump.

Using insulin should sound terrifying. It is a potentially dangerous compound that needs to be treated with the utmost respect.

If you are an inexperienced AAS user you should not take insulin just yet as there are many growth thresh holds you can achieve without insulin that you can never revisit once you have tried to short cut them.

The key is to know what you are doing. As I said there are tens of thousands of diabetics that take insulin safely every day. Seek advice from experienced users and ensure you follow the basic rules listed above and insulin can be an incredibly useful addition to your AAS stacks.

[oldfella]

lol im over the shit talk but your the one that wrote my physique off from one photo mate....maybe is should talk to kelly slater for advice on training bit of the pot calling the kettle black........ just sayin

anyway lets get over the bollocks and get back to business is 2iu suffecient? or a waste of time?

I have used it and would be classed as reasonably new to gear.

I began on 7iu twice a day, only on training days. Once before breakfast and again as soon as after training.

I used it to gain some mass. And I sure did gain some. Managed to hang onto some of it which for me is fine. Didn't expect to hang on to all of it.

As some of the guys have said, you gotta be careful with it. I kept my procedures very strict and had no issues.

[thatwaslight]

Cool thanks for the reply mate, so did you lose some of the gains when ceasing slin? how much mate? was this in conjunction with coming off gear aswell?

[thatwaslight]

Can someone explain the chances of becoming insensitive? also android mentioned using insulin decreasing your life expectancy why??

[oldfella]

Cool thanks for the reply mate, so did you lose some of the gains when ceasing slin? how much mate? was this in conjunction with coming off gear as well?

I couldn't give a hard and fast figure but went from 82 - 89 kgs in 3 weeks. Ran it with test e and prov. Threw in as many clean calories as I could at the time. I gained quite a noticeable increase in upper body size, and got quite a few comments on it.

That was during Nov / Dec. Took a few weeks but came back to around 84. One thing that impressed me was I somehow maintained waist size. It hardly varied.

Haven't really come off as such, just running maintenance most of the time.

I'd definitely do it again.

[thatwaslight]

f*ck thats crazy gains, so you lost 5kg once you stopped the slin?

[oldfella]

f*ck thats crazy gains, so you lost 5kg once you stopped the slin?

Yeh, but I also stopped eating ice cream, subways, yoghurts, full latte coffees with ice cream etc. Wanted the muscle but not the fat.

For me personally, putting on so much in a short period put a little strain on the body. Puffed quite easily when doing stairs or hills. Not the most comfortable which is why I didn't mind cutting back a bit on weight.

That's what age does for you.

[clash]

You did very well "Oldfella" you looked full and pumped and your strength was impressive. Nw that you are leaning up you can see where that course benefited your physique...

2iu is not enough. If you are going to use insulin you need to use enough to achieve your goals for mass increases and 2iu wont do that.

Some people believe you need to breach a certain thresh hold for insulin to be effective and you should feel the effects of hypoglycemia if for insulin to work and this will take place at between 10-20iu. this is not true.

Oldfella's use of insulin was well prescribed and safe. A good place to start is 7iu twice per day on training days. first thing in the morning and straight after training as long as at least 4hrs has lapsed between the two times. Make sure the test levels are high and well kicked in. The inclusion of a C17AA oral for the increase of natural IGF-1 to really get things moving for you.

[thatwaslight]

Clash, do you know much about the risk of insensitivity? or how it "decreases your life expectancy"??

[Chemo]

If you are an inexperienced AAS user you should not take insulin just yet as there are many growth thresh holds you can achieve without insulin that you can never revisit once you have tried to short cut them.

Id love to hear more about these growth thresh holds and if possible why it would not be possible to makes these adaptions after slin usage.

[WANABJAKD]

TWL have you ran GH before?

O.F looking forward to seeing these changes on stage soon

[startinfromscratch]

lots of dick measuring here lol...

im natty but i have a mate that is a rookie gear user, 3 cycles of 2 compounds.

he decided to dabble in slin, did alot of research on american boards first. In the end he decided to start on 3iu once a day post workout, and in his opinion it gained him a few extra kilos of muscle.

kept is simple, followed the guide line of taking postworkout with fast carbs - 10grams per iu of slin used, plus more on hand if the need came. went up to 5iu and had a few hairy moments with low blood sugar, so stopped.

i think all the arguing over dosage is irrelevant, everyone reacts to insulin by different amounts so play it safe and start low, its just common sense.

unless your that guy that takes a gram of test for first cycle

in that case smash 10-20iu :grin:

[thatwaslight]

TWL have you ran GH before?

O.F looking forward to seeing these changes on stage soon

no mate why?

[WANABJAKD]

TWL have you ran GH before?

O.F looking forward to seeing these changes on stage soon

no mate why?

well GH is effective at breaking past genetic limitation. with higher GH doses there are some adverse side effects so you couldnt achieve the same IGF response as you could from insulin.

[Optimass]

lots of dick measuring here lol...

im natty but i have a mate that is a rookie gear user, 3 cycles of 2 compounds.

he decided to dabble in slin, did alot of research on american boards first. In the end he decided to start on 3iu once a day post workout, and in his opinion it gained him a few extra kilos of muscle.

kept is simple, followed the guide line of taking postworkout with fast carbs - 10grams per iu of slin used, plus more on hand if the need came. went up to 5iu and had a few hairy moments with low blood sugar, so stopped.

i think all the arguing over dosage is irrelevant, everyone reacts to insulin by different amounts so play it safe and start low, its just common sense.

unless your that guy that takes a gram of test for first cycle

in that case smash 10-20iu :grin:

Agree - I dont have any experience with slin however used to work with a guy who was into weight training and is a diabetic. He was pretty knowedgable on its use in training etc as a result. REmember him being very cautious about its use exclusively as a training aid. I think someone you would want to consult would be a specialist doc of somekind - research yes online but make sure you are under "qualified" supervision.

OF from memory you had been seeing a doc, is this where yougot you protocl sorted?

found this excerpt online - was published in todays hospitalist:

For patients who aren’t transitioning from IV insulin or who aren’t on an insulin regimen at home, many experts offer these rules of thumb for estimating total daily dose:

0.3 units/kg/day for patients who are lean, on hemodialysis, frail and elderly, insulin-sensitive, or at risk for hypoglycemia;

0.4 units/kg/day for a patient at normal weight;

0.5 units/kg/day for overweight patients; and

0.6 units/kg/day or more for patients who are obese, on high-dose steroids or insulin-resistant.

According to Dr. O'Malley, this formula tends to underestimate what patients' needs really are.

"For very obese patients," she says, "some hospitals start out giving up to 1 unit per kilogram per day as their initial total daily dose. But when people are used to using sliding scale only, even the 0.6 units per kilo that we use to calculate their total daily dose can make physicians leery." As hospitals and physicians become more comfortable controlling hyperglycemia, initial dosing can become more aggressive.

The dosing protocol that Dr. Asudani uses takes patients' diabetic status into account. He offers these dosing guidelines for basal insulin:

0.4 units/kg/day of long-acting insulin for patients with poorly controlled or newly diagnosed type 2 diabetes; and

0.2 units/kg/day for type 1 diabetics.

He uses the following parameters for bolus dosing:

0.1, 0.15 and 0.15 units of short-acting insulin/kg for breakfast, lunch and dinner, respectively, for type 2 diabetics; and

0.05-0.1 units of rapid-acting insulin/kg, administered before meals, for type 1 diabetics.

Dr. Asudani and his colleagues also take patients' steroid use into account when factoring the total daily dose. They adjust the total daily dose 20% higher for patients on low-dose prednisone of 10-20 mg/day; 30% higher for those on medium-dose prednisone of 21-40 mg/day; and a full 50% higher for those on high-dose predisone of 41 or more mg/day.

[Optimass]

lots of dick measuring here lol...

im natty but i have a mate that is a rookie gear user, 3 cycles of 2 compounds.

he decided to dabble in slin, did alot of research on american boards first. In the end he decided to start on 3iu once a day post workout, and in his opinion it gained him a few extra kilos of muscle.

kept is simple, followed the guide line of taking postworkout with fast carbs - 10grams per iu of slin used, plus more on hand if the need came. went up to 5iu and had a few hairy moments with low blood sugar, so stopped.

i think all the arguing over dosage is irrelevant, everyone reacts to insulin by different amounts so play it safe and start low, its just common sense.

unless your that guy that takes a gram of test for first cycle

in that case smash 10-20iu :grin:

Agree - I dont have any experience with slin however used to work with a guy who was into weight training and is a diabetic. He was pretty knowedgable on its use in training etc as a result. REmember him being very cautious about its use exclusively as a training aid. I think someone you would want to consult would be a specialist doc of somekind - research yes online but make sure you are under "qualified" supervision.

OF from memory you had been seeing a doc, is this where yougot you protocl sorted?

found this excerpt online - was published in todays hospitalist:

For patients who aren’t transitioning from IV insulin or who aren’t on an insulin regimen at home, many experts offer these rules of thumb for estimating total daily dose:

0.3 units/kg/day for patients who are lean, on hemodialysis, frail and elderly, insulin-sensitive, or at risk for hypoglycemia;

0.4 units/kg/day for a patient at normal weight;

0.5 units/kg/day for overweight patients; and

0.6 units/kg/day or more for patients who are obese, on high-dose steroids or insulin-resistant.

According to Dr. O'Malley, this formula tends to underestimate what patients' needs really are.

"For very obese patients," she says, "some hospitals start out giving up to 1 unit per kilogram per day as their initial total daily dose. But when people are used to using sliding scale only, even the 0.6 units per kilo that we use to calculate their total daily dose can make physicians leery." As hospitals and physicians become more comfortable controlling hyperglycemia, initial dosing can become more aggressive.

The dosing protocol that Dr. Asudani uses takes patients' diabetic status into account. He offers these dosing guidelines for basal insulin:

0.4 units/kg/day of long-acting insulin for patients with poorly controlled or newly diagnosed type 2 diabetes; and

0.2 units/kg/day for type 1 diabetics.

He uses the following parameters for bolus dosing:

0.1, 0.15 and 0.15 units of short-acting insulin/kg for breakfast, lunch and dinner, respectively, for type 2 diabetics; and

0.05-0.1 units of rapid-acting insulin/kg, administered before meals, for type 1 diabetics.

Dr. Asudani and his colleagues also take patients' steroid use into account when factoring the total daily dose. They adjust the total daily dose 20% higher for patients on low-dose prednisone of 10-20 mg/day; 30% higher for those on medium-dose prednisone of 21-40 mg/day; and a full 50% higher for those on high-dose predisone of 41 or more mg/day.

Seems to be a lot of different perspectives ... I personally would see alot benefit from playing it safe. I grow on bugger all AAS but Im satisfied with that. I'm not in a hurry for perfection espeially if a potential error could involve death

[Optimass]

... forgot to add - interesting thread. :clap: .. probably an under-discussed one on this forum ... and apologies for the spelling gramar - no mouse so using the dumb touch pad :x

[Android]

.....so what is your opinion of when should someone use it? is it an age thing to u or a weight thing or what?

It's just an opinion...

Firstly, look at what injecting insulin into your body really is, broken down into small facts.

You're injecting something into your body that (at 7-9iu) will kill you. Cool that's a fact, not many if any survive without intervention at this point. You are injecting something that is going to kill you.

Then...you eat to prevent yourself from dying.

Right...

It's a big step to take and so I think you've got to be in a position where you can tell those around you what you are doing so you aren't hiding away taking it. You look like and act like a junkie if you do.

I made sure some people around me at work knew what I was doing.

I took 2 shots while at work mon-fri, one was at lunchtime and one pre-workout. Also my morning shot affect lasts through to late morning. So I chose to tell a guy sitting nearby me who was type-2 and taking the tablets. If I couldn't tell someone I wouldn't have done it at work. When you're hypo you can't even open a lollie wrapper how are you going to help yourself?

My family at home and training partner also had to know.

Someone mentioned earlier that diabetics are taking it all the time safely. The diabetics I know have strict instructions to take blood samples so they are better informed than a guy hiding away from workmates or family in his room taking it imo.

Lastly, it's a hit and miss drug.

You take whatever IU someone said you shoudl take and you consume the amount of sugar your mate o someone on a forum suggested and an hour later you start yawning. Is it a sign to take more sugars and early hypo or did you eat too much and it's a sugar crash yawn? do you think it's a sugar crash and do nothing...? You'd probably take more sugars as thats the harmless route...but see how hit and miss it can be

This is where I beleive you need access to either fellow diabetics who live and breathe the problem, or BBs who have experienced what you might be going through.

So "in my opinion" you're ready on 2 counts:

1. when you don't have to hide it like a junkie. If you can't tell workmates then don't take it during work hours, if you can't tell family then don't take it at home.

2. You've reached a plateau with your enhanced growth and want to take it to the next level. (Assuming you eat, sleep, and train solidly)

Startinfromscratch, sounds like your mate gained from 3iu...must have been good advice from whoever .... :-) LOL.

Not surprised 5iu made him shaky have been told that when you feel those effects that you're doing the reverse of shuttling nutrients into the muscle...you're shuttling them out.

(Been told, not researched, so don't ping me down on abstracts and proofs)

[Sims]

When I come off it you'll be desensitized a bit and unlike test it doesn't bounce back the same. Insulin is the one hormone that limits life expectancy and it's because of the permanent desensitizing of it.

I'm no doctor or researcher, but this seems counter-intuitive to me unless my understanding of diabetes is completely wayward.

Agree that you will down-regulate your insulin receptors / raise your insulin resistance because of the higher level of blood glucose, but by eating a clean low carb diet and with high intensity training I believe you can also up-regulate your insulin receptors over time.

Unless you mean if your on the tipping point, and your new found raised insulin levels shut down your pancreas natural production?

Personally I will never use insulin, as I used to be a real fat f#$7 (with the stretch marks to prove it) and had myself in a pre-diabetic state through a very poor diet and habit of drinking more then my fair share. My focus is on lowering my insulin levels through a low GI diet, even if it means slower gains.