Adrenal Fatigue

[donz]

If this is in the wrong section please move
 
This was copy n pasta from a document Jason Theobald created for his podcast and posted in a group I am in; 
 
He says "Hey everyone Ive had quite a few people ask me questions pertaining to the discussion I had on the podcast regarding Adrenal Fatigue. Most people have offered to compensate me to discuss the issues with them but thats not how I do things. So since Ive shared the outline with a few people I figured why not just post the outline. Remember this was just an outline for talking points. Its not perfect by any means but if it may help you then have at it. The supps I recommended are listed on the final page."
 
Adrenal Fatigue:  Why Should You be Concerned as Physique Enthusiast
 
I.What are the Adrenal Glands
a.       Small glands on top of each kidney.
b.      Produce hormones vital for existence one of which is cortisol
c.       The hypothalamus produces corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH) that stimulates the pituitary gland to produce adrenocorticotropin hormone (ACTH). Together these hormones in turn cause the adrenals to release corticosteroid hormones
d.      Adrenal Cortex hormones::vital hormones

1.       Cortisol. Regulate how your body converts fats carbs and proteins to energy
2.       Aldosterone: regulates water /salt balance in the body while maintaining proper blood pressure.
3.       Small amounts of sex hormones (overshadowed by the ovaries and testes)

e.      Adrenal Medulla: : non vital hormones. Secretes after sympathetic nervous system is taxed, stress

1.       Epinephrine: Adrenaline: stress response to prep body for fight or flight, low epinephrine linked to low stomach acid ie digestion issues: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1064147
2.       Norepinephrine
3.       Dopamine

II.What is Adrenal Dysfunction
a.       Inability of the adrenal glands to respond to the stresses now placed on the body, many times marked by intense bouts of tiredness even after sleep and rest.

III.What causes Dysfunction
1.       Stress
2.       Disease
3.       Overuse of stimulants/caffeine, clen, yohimbine hcl etc.
4.       Steroids???? (as a stimulant to CNS??? No scientific proof but it makes you question)
5.       Working too much/lack of sleep/lack of proper rest

IV.What are the Symptoms
a.       With hyperadrenal states: hard to fall asleep, allergies, excessive sweating, gastric issues like ulcers, digestion issues etc.
b.      With hypoadrenal states: dizzy when standing up,tired all the time even after good nights rest, trouble staying asleep, shaky or light headed between meals, feeling of a sense of being alive after meals only, perking up (when NOT in a dieted state).

V.What can go wrong in the body due to Adrenal Dysfunction
a.       high cortisol

1.       suppression of TSH, T4 wont convert to T3, slowed thyroid, weight gain hard to lose fat

2.       increased blood glucose levels

3.       suppressed pituitary leading to low luteinizing hormone and lower test levels

4.       decreased liver detoxification; increased liver enzymes on BW

5.       suppressed secratory IgA, inflammation of gut, infection and permeability (separates the crap from parts of the body that need to be sterile)

6.       decreased immune system function, more sick often, and longer when you get sick? Do colds linger etc.

7.       Insomnia

8.       Neurordegenrative disorders destruction of the hippocampus

b.      Low Cortisol

1.       Suppression of the immune system

2.       Hypoglycemic tendencies (cravings) leading to catecholamine release (dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine) insulin spikes, fluctuations in blood sugars, making it hard to lose weight.

3.       Increased body inflammation

c.       One can suffer from low and high it’s a flip of the circadian rhythm

1.       Normal is high cortisol in mornings to go about your day and low at night so you can relax and rest. This can be flipped opposite (this is what my tests showed)

2.       These people may suffer from a mix of the above symptoms.

 

VI.How Can I Test to see if I’m suffering from it
a.       Neurotransmitter test saliva, takes 4 samples per day
b.      Or INDICATORS from blood work

a.       Low platelets under 260
b.      Low neutrophils weakened immune response (happens with adrenal fatigue)
c.       Low globulin less than 2.6 low stomach acid (happens with adrenal fatigue)
d.      Low alkaline phosphates:  less than 90, adrenals, thyroid, low b-12 deficiency
e.      Low ft3

c.       Low dhea over 220 is optimal

VII.How can I fix it
a.       Change of Behaviors.

1.       Cut back on training, instead of 5 go 4. 2 on 1 off 2 on 2 off and don’t train to failure and cut back on sets…nice pump but nothing crazy

2.       Drop hiit cardio if being done just walk for cardio

3.       Sleep more, take naps, rest up

4.       Worry less. Easier said than done but maybe cut back on work hours, and other things that cause you stress

5.       Cut back on caffeine since this taxes the adrenal system if relied on too much

6.       Cut all stimulants out

7.       Come of anabolic steroids

8.       Plan your day better so you aren’t always rushing and stressing the body under flight or fight

b.      Supplements to Help    

1.       A good B Complex I like seeking health brand but plenty out there

2.       Phenibut, great relaxer mimics Gaba (mine was low so felt a lot of anxiety), along with theanine, passion fruit, valerian root

3.       Magnesium glycinate 500mg -2 grams before bed helps relaxation and muscle tone relaxation

4.       Curcumin for the body inflammation 800mg daily then 400mg maintenance Life extensions brand

5.       Pancreatic enzymes and may need ox bile if epinephrine impaired (as mine was)

6.       Phosphatidylserene: helps regulate cortisol can help drop chronically elevated etc, 2g daily spread over morning and night if dealing with elevated cortisol. In my case where thigns were flipped I did mine at night bc thats when my cortisol was raising

7.       Adapatgenic herbs: to help body better combat stress

a.       Ashwaghanda, rhodiola, beta sistosterol (also good for prostate and cholesterol),

8.       Chronically depressed cortisol then huperzine A is good as a acetylcholine support

9.       Hypothalmex by Standard process  1-2 tabs per day 1 morning 1 evening

10.   Multi Mins by Bioitcs research 4 tabs per day

11.   Humanofort. Helps rejuvenate the entire HPTA 300mg-400mg is great just google the word and you will find it. 

[Riccardo]

The Endocrine Society, which represents approximately 14,000 endocrinologists, has this to say about adrenal fatigue:

"Adrenal fatigue” is not a real medical condition. There are no scientific facts to support the theory that long-term mental, emotional, or physical stress drains the adrenal glands and causes many common symptoms.

[maccaz]

i gotta admit, i had never heard of Jason Theobold, but if its this guy http://www.nattynutrition.com/pages/About/then I want the time spent reading what he wrote back!

 

gotta side with endocrinologists

 

for sure you can get run down/fatigued/tired/whatever (i do sometimes) but no need to blame that on tired glands

 

also this guy has a BA in economics and a law degree, hardly qualified to comment. i can buy his nutrition consultant qualification online for under 500usd

 

(my bad if its a different Jason Theobold)

[donz]

I personally don't really buy into it but a i know a shit ton of people do and figured this post might help someone~ the group I got that from on FB legit listen to Jason, has top level trainers, couple of guys/girls who are top level BB in Olympia so it's not just from some misc forum but yeah w.evs

[soundsgood]

Sounds like a bullshit cover all bases condition that can be used to describe any condition that can't be diagnosed.

[donz]

Haha possibly. It was just something someone wrote to cover what was asked in a podcast - sheesh! Sorry for trying to help! keeeeeee......unnnnnt!

[Dinahlady]

Do you feel stressed? Do you feel tired? Do you have low sex drive? Are you fatter than you think you should be? Do you feel depressed? anxious? 

 

If so then you have this condition that I just made up!

 

But don't worry, all you have to do is frequent my website, watch all my youtube videos, listen to all my advice, buy all my products and any others I advertise, and make me rich AF and you'll get better! I swear! 

[GyzzBrah]

Like the way I see it is that it is a convineint way to blame bad lifestyle choices and actions on a medical condition. Stress and mental fatigue are obviously real things, but seems easier for people to say that hard work leads to adrenal fatigue, rather than admit that poor nutrition or bad time management is what is causing this mental fatigue.

[HarryB]

What's the difference between chronic fatigue and adrenal fatigue? Why is one which has a set of dubious and seemingly all encompassing symptoms more valid than the other.. which has the same symptoms.. I'm not sold either way on it but anecdotal evidence supports the idea there is a price to pay when you push hour body for a long time with diets, Ober training and drug abuse.

[donz]

Do you feel stressed? Do you feel tired? Do you have low sex drive? Are you fatter than you think you should be? Do you feel depressed? anxious? 

 

If so then you have this condition that I just made up!

 

But don't worry, all you have to do is frequent my website, watch all my youtube videos, listen to all my advice, buy all my products and any others I advertise, and make me rich AF and you'll get better! I swear! 

Pretty sure I just posted someone elses write up from their podcast without linking any websites and asking for any money.

 

A lot of people have different opinions and beliefs and choose to believe in things like this - one study says this, one says that, you can pretty much google an opposing argument for any single topic on the planet and find them on the internet and say "this study shows this"

 

Like I said I don't really believe in it but some people do, I posted this for those who do, so they can read it, and if they choose follow some of the steps listed at the end. I am fully aware that people on Gymnation are the leaders in fitness, health and well being in the world and I was really hoping for some the obvious .phds in everything crew would check in, kinda gutted that the answers were short and stupid and just roughly outlined "this group of people said this and theres 14000 of them so its pretty much the final answer on the topic, sorry for those who might actually have this unproven yet possible condition"

 

Hahah I really... I don't even... "dont go to chiropractors they're frauds!" "don't go to doctors they're frauds" "don't believe in anything ... well except what I say because I'm on the forums posting during the day when really I should be having a debate with Stephen Hawkings"

 

*mic drop* cos I'm fucking out lol

[maccaz]

Pretty sure I just posted someone elses write up from their podcast without linking any websites and asking for any money.

 

A lot of people have different opinions and beliefs and choose to believe in things like this - one study says this, one says that, you can pretty much google an opposing argument for any single topic on the planet and find them on the internet and say "this study shows this"

 

Like I said I don't really believe in it but some people do, I posted this for those who do, so they can read it, and if they choose follow some of the steps listed at the end. I am fully aware that people on Gymnation are the leaders in fitness, health and well being in the world and I was really hoping for some the obvious .phds in everything crew would check in, kinda gutted that the answers were short and stupid and just roughly outlined "this group of people said this and theres 14000 of them so its pretty much the final answer on the topic, sorry for those who might actually have this unproven yet possible condition"

 

Hahah I really... I don't even... "dont go to chiropractors they're frauds!" "don't go to doctors they're frauds" "don't believe in anything ... well except what I say because I'm on the forums posting during the day when really I should be having a debate with Stephen Hawkings"

 

*mic drop* cos I'm fucking out lol

 

dont stress bro lol iv posted heaps of shit on here that has been slammed much worse than this.

its good debate

worth posting shit anyway then it various opinions can comment on it

[HarryB]

Why can't I type... lol

[donz]

Haha I just don't get it Macz if I posted this as my personal beliefs and started saying everyone has adrenal fatigue id expect to be shot down - I just posted it up "incase someone might find it helpful" but then people pipe up with their PERSONAL beliefs because they're obviously right and obviously everyone in the world is the same and because one big studie a bunch of people decided its law - theres never an exception to the rule, ever? Haha

 

rargggh

[maccaz]

Haha I just don't get it Macz if I posted this as my personal beliefs and started saying everyone has adrenal fatigue id expect to be shot down - I just posted it up "incase someone might find it helpful" but then people pipe up with their PERSONAL beliefs because they're obviously right and obviously everyone in the world is the same and because one big studie a bunch of people decided its law - theres never an exception to the rule, ever? Haha

 

rargggh

fair enough

 

for the record i should add a disclaimer in my signature that my post is just my uneducated opinion and most likely not correct lol

[Realtalk]

Do you have this Don?

[donz]

Haha I have adrenal rage bro

[maccaz]

Haha I have adrenal rage bro

adrenal rage from getting bullied about posting about adrenal rage

[Dinahlady]

What's the difference between chronic fatigue and adrenal fatigue? Why is one which has a set of dubious and seemingly all encompassing symptoms more valid than the other.. which has the same symptoms.. I'm not sold either way on it but anecdotal evidence supports the idea there is a price to pay when you push hour body for a long time with diets, Ober training and drug abuse.

 

Difference is chronic fatigue is recognised by the medical community and has a large body of researchers investigating its biochemical basis and is linked to several viral illnesses and occurs in people of all ages (e.g. children aswell)... it is taught about it in universities.... Adrenal fatigue has none of this... 

With a quick search on the uni article database: 

"Chronic fatigue syndrome" = 10,000 hits including hundreds of reviews/meta-analyses published in top tier journals. 

 

Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (the other name for CFS) = 1000 more hits, but is usually just abbreviated to ME - if I could search "ME" without getting hundreds of articles with "me" in the title then I'm sure there would be more. 

 

....

 

When I search "Adrenal fatigue" = 34 publications - many of these in alternative medicine journals.

 

But I agree with your last point (see my post below this one )

[Dinahlady]

 one study says this, one says that, you can pretty much google an opposing argument for any single topic on the planet and find them on the internet and say "this study shows this"

 

 

Yeah you can find studies either way, especially when its not your area of study it can be hard to interpret which ones are of value. Thats why its best to look for reviews/meta-analysis. That is when an expert in the field looks at all of the studies and interprets them based on their years and years of training. Hopefully what I posted in my above post is convincing... 

It doesnt mean its not possible for some version of a yet unknown condition to at some point be discovered. But what's the point in believing in something with no evidence, which means there are NO suggested cures or directions.  If you believe in something with no treatment or evidence then all you can be is ripped off with bogus products.

 

Go to your GP, talk about feeling fatigued, talk about feeling stressed. There is lots of information and reviews by experts about things like overtraining or stress.There are things to rule out that are common such as sleep apneoa (e.g. for bbers with incrased BMI due to increased muscle mass for example) or low iron or calcium intake (chicken + brocolli diets lol), or overtraining. These have physical symptoms taht are measureable and also have treatments that have been studied and reviewed. And what about mental illness  - anxiety/depression. Second most common cause of health loss in NZ for men and first for women - which also includes symptoms of fatigue. These can often be subclinical but could cause problems. 

 

Why not start with something more common rather than the exotic? 

I admitt I used to be into a lot of that exotic bs. I probably might have even identified with adrenal fatigue etc myself at one point. I wasted a lot of time looking at crap online - if I'd involved myself with medical professionals I might have actually been able to address my own diagnosable medical conditions much earlier. I regret wasting that time and losing time to health conditions that were/are perfectly treatable and that treating them has vastly improved my quality of life. 

 

From my own experience as well as opinions and others experiences I've read (i.e. not science): Things like adrenal fatigue are attractive for many women because they legitimise  common issues like overexercising or undereating or drug use (like @harryb said). It means they can blame their symptoms on a condition,  alienates themselves from health care that "doesnt believe in it" so that doctors cant pick up on or challenge the real causes - because most people want to continue them. They can still carry on with these things and blame their symptoms on a condition rather than addressing commonly known causes because they have often built strong beliefs and an identity around them. It can be hard to accept that behaviours you see as virtuous are harming you. But thats just my own interpretation and insight into "adrenal fatigue" in the bodybuildiung world. 

[Riccardo]

Chill brah, no ones attacking you I just thought the info I posted was relevant to the topic. I think its pretty unequivocal that its a made up disease so a relativist argument doesn't really hold much merit.

[HarryB]

Difference is chronic fatigue is recognised by the medical community and has a large body of researchers investigating its biochemical basis and is linked to several viral illnesses and occurs in people of all ages (e.g. children aswell)... it is taught about it in universities.... Adrenal fatigue has none of this...

With a quick search on the uni article database:

"Chronic fatigue syndrome" = 10,000 hits including hundreds of reviews/meta-analyses published in top tier journals.

Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (the other name for CFS) = 1000 more hits, but is usually just abbreviated to ME - if I could search "ME" without getting hundreds of articles with "me" in the title then I'm sure there would be more.

....

When I search "Adrenal fatigue" = 34 publications - many of these in alternative medicine journals.

But I agree with your last point (see my post below this one )

I'm sure when chronic fatigue became a thing it was after people were thinking... there's something going on but can't really tell what exactly. Of course there's a million more studies and information on chronic fatigue. Perhaps in time adrenal fatigue will be recognized as an actual condition. You know the world used to be flat .. that was an actual thing

[Skeletor]

My mrs was sent to a dr who specializes in this adrenal fatigue because of contstant tiredness etc. She eats reasonable and excercises and is a good weight, doesnt drink or do any drugs. There was a heap of tests she had to do . She then had to grow her pubic hair for like two months then shave it off and stick it in this envelope thing but it turned out she didnt have enough in there and wanted more . Like a gram or something but we werent willing to go through that again and gave up lol. Apparently he had helped tons of people suffering it. Gaspari actually brought out a product for adrenal fatigue from memory called adrenocharge or something.

[Dinahlady]

Yeah HarryB read my other post I also addressed that. Even if one day it becomes a thing then theres still not much point believing/following something that doesn't have any evidence now because there aren't proven treatments. Even if it was a thing you should probably go through ruling out that much more common stuff that is very inexpensive (no specialists) or even free, and actually has cures. Rather than self diagnosing on the internet and avoiding medical professionals. 

I can understand people who have been though the system and not gotten anything helpful looking into it if nothing else has worked. But thats different than just reading something and deciding you have it without advocting for yourself to get thorough medical testing, or looking into more common issues.  

I mean even like you speculated if it is caused by over exercise, stress, drugs.... pretty sure those things are, or are associated with "illnesses" themselves. Maybe get legitimate help for those behaviours?  you can get help to learn to cope better with stressors. If you're not looking after yourself with adequate rest/recovery and self care, or you don't entertain the possibility you might need help to remedy the attitude that makes you do those things then you're probably gonna feel shit until you do. I really do have sympathy for people in that situation, but they need to be realistic and look to get real help from doctors, even sports med doctors about rest and recovery, or mental health practitioners,  instead of buying into more products online... Even though the posts like donz shared about adrenal fatigue might give some advice along the lines of what ive said that might address sleep, overtraining, stress, they probably aren't as effective as proper personalised proffessional interventions (think detox vs. lifestyle change).

 

Basically what I'm saying is that most (not all) people who might identify with having adrenal faituge probably have something that is common from a range of possible, treatable things. If they havent had ongoing involvement with medical and mental health professionals then I dont think they should really entertain the idea of adrenal fatigue as a "thing" to seek out treatment for. 

 

in my honest opinion the world is a bit screwed up if someones feeling fatigued they would rather decide they have a slightly mythical disorder instead of getting formally assessed by a psychologist/psychiatrist for depression/anxiety, which are rediculously common. Some of the key symptoms of depression are faigue, weight gain/loss, and sleep problems (too much or too little), and things like not enjoying things as much as you previously did, mood swings/irritability, inability to concentrate.  This isn't anyones fault its just much easier to look at shiny new metabolic disorders when there is stigma or misconceptions around things like depression (such as the idea you have to be really really sad - you dont). and ofc im not saying everyone that thinks they have adrenal fatigue has depression. But its something very very common that has multiple treatment plans available and often people often don't necessarily know they have it. 

Like I said - at one point I probably thought I had something like adrenal fatigue. Turns out that I have a very common neurogenetic condition that is very treatable, as well as some comorbidies that go with that (being vague cos dont wanna get judged on here haha, and no Ive never been diagnosed with depression) but that doesn't have anythign to do with adrenal fatigue. The point of adrenal fatigue is that the symptoms are very broad and vague so lots of people could probably identify with them. 

[HarryB]

Well thankfully not everyone is discounting it completely as an idea because that would seem somewhat small minded

[Riccardo]

Simetimes the scientific consensus turns around but that usually occurs with hypotheses that come from actual research in the first place. There are very few times a consensus has actually reversed, more so its an evolution of understanding with two sides extrapolating a conclusion from the available evidence. The flat earth analogy isn't a good one considering the view that the earth was flat was bot a scientific one to begin with, it was a religious one.

In this instance we have a fake disease made up by a chiropractor with absolutely no evidence or even any biological plausibility. I think its safe to say the case is closed on adrenal fatigue