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Ketogenic diet


atrollappears

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Something interesting I found on Ketogenic diet:

 

A ketogenic diet is very difficult to gain muscle mass on. Simply put, you'll be keeping your protein quite high (around 1 gram per pound of body weight) which under normal circumstances would fulfill requirements for stable protein synthesis (how you build/maintain muscle mass). However, when you throw your body into a ketotic state, this doesn’t hold true. To actually understand why this is, we’ve got to do a little biochemistry/cellular metabolism legwork.

On a diet that isn't carbohydrate restricted, your body undergoes glycolysis - the oxidation metabolism of glucose molecules into adenosine triphosphate (ATP - energy) and pyruvate which fuels the citric acid cycle (TCA cycle). Glycolysis can be broken down into two stages which are anaerobic and yield very little ATP: First, glucose is converted to glucose 6-phosphate, which is converted to fructose 6-phosphate, which is converted into fructose 1,6-bisphosphate, which is finally converted into two phosphoglyceraldehyde (PGAL) molecules. This first process requires 2 ATP's and yields none. In the second process which also requires two ATP's, the two PGAL molecules are converted into pyruvate; four ATP's and two NADH's are created in the process. Therefore, the total net yield of ATP from glycolysis is two molecules. In the grand scheme of things, this is a tiny amount.

Okay so now that that's out of the way, let's take a look at those two pyruvate molecules. Those will be converted to Acetyl-CoA, which then generates 2 more NADH's and 2 molecules of CO2 per each pyruvate. The Acetyl-CoA can now undergo TCA cycle. Skipping a whole bunch of conversions, at the end of TCA cycle, we’re left with six NADH’s per three Acetyl-CoA, FADH2 and two ATP per 1 Acetyl-CoA, and four CO2 per two Acetyl-CoA. All of this brings the total for the oxidation of pyruvate and TCA cycle to eight NADH, two FADH2, two ATP, and six CO2.

From here, we go to the electron transport chain where NADH and FADH2 are broken down thereby pumping H+ ions through ATP synthase into the outer compartment of the mitochondria. This creates a gradient that is used to produce the majority of our ATP – approximately 32. Combined with glycolysis and TCA cycle, the final amount of ATP generated is roughly 36 molecules.


Using carbohydrates to fuel glycolysis, TCA cycle, and the electron transport chain to generate ATP is the body's preferred method of producing energy because this is the most energy efficient method available (plain and simple, carbohydrates are easy to break down into glucose, which as we just saw, is the fundamental molecule necessary for energy production.
However, due to your extremely low carbohydrate intake (true ketogenic diets assume a net intake of less than 50 grams of carbs/day) your body will begin breaking down the amino acids normally used for protein synthesis, (either from the protein you're ingesting, or from your muscles) and start using it to make glucose (gluconeogenesis). The only amino acids that can’t be use during this process are leucine and lysine as these can only be utilized to synthesize fatty acids. In addition to this process, the body will begin increasing the rate of lipolysis (this is the major upside of a ketogenic diet) wherein a triacylglycerol (fat) molecule is cleaved to provide 3 fatty acid chains and 1 glycerol molecule. Via beta-oxidation, which gives us Acetyl-CoA, these fatty acids can be used by most body tissues as an alternative source of energy (remember, Acetyl-CoA is what drives TCA cycle and subsequently, the electron transport chain).

Here’s where things get interesting. The brain cannot use long-chain fatty acids for energy because they are completely albumin-bound and as such, cannot cross the blood-brain barrier (only some medium chain fatty acids cross the BBB, but this is generally not sufficient enough to provide adequate energy for the brain). Therefore, any carbohydrates that you do intake will be automatically shunted towards providing energy for the brain and be broken down into glucose. Why’s this bad for muscle growth? Well, for one this means that the glycogen stores in your muscles will become depleted very quickly (usually within a few days), and two, your body will being to rely heavily on the urea cycle (the breakdown of amino acids) and also lipolysis for energy stores. All of these factors result in a large net decrease in the rate of amino acid (protein) synthesis, especially true in skeletal muscle tissue. Not only does this inhibit muscle hypertrophy and increase rate of catabolism, but it also makes the body more acidic (fyi, some enzymes – enzymes catalyze reactions, some of which are catabolic – operate more efficiently in an acidic environment) due to an increase in nitrogen content in the body (the result of large scale breakdown of amino (NH2) acids) which together with CO2 forms urea. Everyone loves gout, right? Finally, your insulin levels will plummet pretty low. Insulin is released in response to carbohydrate ingestion and it is the most anabolic hormone known to man. Without it, it’s definitely going to be nearly impossible to grow.

Long story short, if you’re looking primarily for fat-loss, a ketogenic diet is a great method to employ. However, if you’re looking to gain muscle mass, a ketogenic diet can be your biggest enemy; at best you can expect to maybe maintain your muscle mass, but this is for the few genetically gifted individuals among us. Ask anyone that’s run a ketogenic diet and they will tell you that without the aid of AAS or GH peptides, they lost muscle mass. Your best bet is to eat a clean and well balanced diet and actually up your carbohydrate intake. If you’re worried about gaining fat, just limit your carbs to low glycemic index carbs (keeping your insulin spikes pretty low) and aim for a small calorie surplus. After all, science aside, simple math will tell you that you’ve got to have more calories going in than what you’re burning every day or you’re going to end up with a net loss. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but building muscle mass (truly building mass) and losing fat at the same time is nearly impossible without any aid of some sort.

 

Wouldn't the idea of cyclic keto dieting circumvent a lot of issues mentjoned with the periodic refeeds to restore muscle glycogen but keep the liver depleted and preventing coming out of keto? Or is it not efficient as either diet and we should just adhere to one or the other depending on one's goals?
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Theoretically, yes but you've got to make sure your time points as well as your carb intake amount are spot on. The body usually begins to enter into a ketotic state after 2-3 days (this is when the body's glycogen stores are become depleted). However, the initial states of ketosis are fairly inefficient and to become fully adjusted to daily life in a ketotic state it usually takes around 3 weeks. During these three weeks you'll generally see the largest amount of weight loss per unit time. Once in a full ketotic state (after 3 weeks), it becomes easier to transition in and out of a ketotic state because the it takes awhile (approximately 2 weeks) for the body to fully replenish it's glycogen stores (if you're going to run a cyclic ketogenic diet wait 3 weeks before starting cycles). When you're trying to transition out of ketosis (the cycle-out) you've really got to be careful of the type of carbs you ingest as taking in a high amount of high glycemic index carbs in a short amount of time will cause such a large insulin spike that most of the carbs will undergo glycogenesis and be stored as fat, which would completely defeat all the weeks of work you've put in prior to lose fat. The downside to this type of diet for those who aren't super strict is that they'll inevitably end up undergoing a treadmill effect where no progress is made and they simply stay stagnant at the same body composition with no fat loss or muscle gain. This type of logic can apply to workout types as well and what your target end-goals are. Ex: Lifting at a high intensity, lighter weight and shorter rests for increased lipolysis vs lifting at a lower intensity, heavier weight, longer rests aimed at muscle hypertrophy. If one were to perform the two types of workouts in an alternate pattern every other week, it's likely that not much improvement in either direction would be observed. However, by increasing the time points of these phases to, lets say 3 months each, one would experience much more significant improvement in muscle hypertrophy and fat loss.

From an efficiency standpoint, I used to be a proponent of "do as many things at once as possible to try and achieve as many goals as possible in the shortest time period." However, after trying time and time again and failing, I've realized that for me, it's usually more efficient (and hence I make more progress) focusing on one goal at a time and throwing all my effort into that goal. This is why professional bodybuilders cycle they way they do; usually they'll spend months at a time bulking up and then spend months more at a time focusing on leaning up. Now, if you're using gear (which most if not all of them are) then the time points can obviously be shortened to some degree and the gains experience from both directions will be significantly greater than without gear.

All in all, I say pick one and stick to it for a decent amount of time; then when you feel you've reached your maximum potential in that area, switch gears and start working towards your other goal. But, again, this is simply what I find most efficient for myself - I just happen to be in the large majority as far as this topic is concerned.

 

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 building muscle mass (truly building mass) and losing fat at the same time is nearly impossible without any aid of some sort.

 

Can you elaborate on this?

I thought gaining muscle + losing fat at the same time wasn't really possible at all, even with drugs?

 

 

I think if protein is kept very high, along with AAS, plus hGH it might be possible, but limited.!!

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its possible to do it naturally too.

 

if youre 90kg 30% bf and you start training/training harder and keep your weight at 90kg youll obviously gain muscle and therefore lose fat.

 

if i want to get bigger i use this principle..just eat heaps til reach desired weight (5-10kg max gain or youll get too much fat) then maintain that weight til ive reached equilibrium again at probably same bf % i was when i was lighter.

 

i did it to go from 90kg to 95kg (naturally) and it worked well. Was leaner 3-4 months later at 95kg than I was at 90kg

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its possible to do it naturally too.

 

if youre 90kg 30% bf and you start training/training harder and keep your weight at 90kg youll obviously gain muscle and therefore lose fat.

 

if i want to get bigger i use this principle..just eat heaps til reach desired weight (5-10kg max gain or youll get too much fat) then maintain that weight til ive reached equilibrium again at probably same bf % i was when i was lighter.

 

i did it to go from 90kg to 95kg (naturally) and it worked well. Was leaner 3-4 months later at 95kg than I was at 90kg

 

got it, 30% bf 90kg extreme example but yeah see what you mean

so i guess if you maintain x weight and continue to lift, get stronger, etc, inevitable muscle will be growing so fat has to be going somewhere to be maintaining the weight

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This thread is specifically refers to the effect of a ketogenic diet and living within the restrictions of less than 60 grams of carbohydrate per day.

While on a ketogenic diet muscle gain is severely limited. If I have read the article correctly what atrollappears alludes to is that only with the assistance of peds is muscle gain possible while on a ketogenic diet, and then only limited amounts of gains.

So do not try to utilise a ketogenic diet to gain mass while cutting up at the same time.

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This thread is specifically refers to the effect of a ketogenic diet and living within the restrictions of less than 60 grams of carbohydrate per day.

While on a ketogenic diet muscle gain is severely limited. If I have read the article correctly what atrollappears alludes to is that only with the assistance of peds is muscle gain possible while on a ketogenic diet, and then only limited amounts of gains.

So do not try to utilise a ketogenic diet to gain mass while cutting up at the same time.

Thanks for your input rebel. But my posts were a response to maccaz question. Daz's article isnt about 'cutting' at all as far as I could tell

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It says if you want to gain muscle you should not do keto. And only do keto if your only goal is fat loss. I think the point of the article is that you cant gain much muscle on a ketogenic diet even on a calorie surplus as it reccomends that for muscle gain you should be on a slight surplus plus eating carbs. Your reading comprehension is pretty terrible.

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thats kind of a no brainer though, having used keto to reduce my bodyweight by 1/3rd a few years back can safely say i felt weak as shit the whole time and can't think of a worse way to gain muscle haha

 

Theres a guy on youtube called keto evangelist and he eats extreme keto (beef hearts etc) for the past 6 months and says he is improving performance drastically.

I watched a seminar by alan aragon where he showed a study saying the majority of athletes suck at keto, but a very small percentile actually saw a drastic increase.

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Nice article, Daz. I'll come back and read it properly when I've got more time.

 

I've tried keto diets and didn't really see much difference that I couldn't have simply acheived with lower calories. Possibly I looked a bit dryer without the carbs, but I probably looked a bit flatter too.

 

Good if you like chicken salads though. :)

 

post-2-0-17717400-1418433793_thumb.jpg

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Lot's of detail by the writer but many will disagree regarding the comment re glucose and the brain. The brain will work perfectly well on ketone bodies; beta hydroxybutarate, acetoacetate and acetone.

There are essential amino acids the body cannot make, essential fats that must be provided by the diet but there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate.

I'm not disagreeing about the gaining muscle bit, just saying the writer missed a few facts out.

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  • 1 month later...

I think I remember reading something by Lyle McDonald a while back on Cyclic Ketogenic Diets (back when Dan Duchaine's Body Opus was all the rage) about preserving/gaining muscle during the carb re-feeds ?

Something to do with insulin response/sensitivity ?

 

I could be completely wrong...my memory is not great at the best of times...

 

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"...better living through chemicals..."

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

thats kind of a no brainer though, having used keto to reduce my bodyweight by 1/3rd a few years back can safely say i felt weak as shit the whole time and can't think of a worse way to gain muscle haha

 

Theres a guy on youtube called keto evangelist and he eats extreme keto (beef hearts etc) for the past 6 months and says he is improving performance drastically.

I watched a seminar by alan aragon where he showed a study saying the majority of athletes suck at keto, but a very small percentile actually saw a drastic increase.

 

 

I'm sure that I'd say that I was improving drastically by following the silly diet program that I sell for a living.

 

Buy stuff from salespeople; don't take advice from them.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 9 months later...

Im going to bump this topic up. Browsed this thread a few times https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains

 

 

Im going to run this diet for a while and see how I go. Will be almost 2 weeks tomorrow been on it. Managed to score a heap of Bacon cheap at PaknSave ha ha. So giving it a nudge at least till it runs out.

 

First time in a long time not thinking about food all the time. On a more bodybuild macros thinking about food what to eat.  Eating every few hours feeling hungry. Breakfast then  at work meal morning tea and lunch,  preworkout at 3.30 of at least a banana. Tracking calories on myfitnesspal

 

Now on keto I eat bacon (or steak) eggs with some veges (broccolli or spinach)  olive oil or coconut oil with butter. Dont eat until 2 pm at work,  I do have cups of stock with butter in it as drink. Now Im googling food and recipes to make with calories in it to use up. Keto cheesecake/fudge etc

 

As far as workouts go havent really seen much change apart from the usual some days go bit harder than others but when do after a days work not always surprising.

 

Have taken a photo one week in, will see how I progress and depending on how goes may do a progress pic. Taking first few weeks fairly relaxed with calories hitting my normal 3k easy on myfitnesspal till body gets fully adjusted to keto. Bodyweight seems about the same as before keto switch.

 

2015-12-13 16.03.30.jpg

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I did keto from 121kg to 77kg and rate it. I was weak at the start and stronger at the end but that doesnt mean much was still weak (could prob bench 60 x 1 if im lucky )

 

Its counter productive if you want to gain strength normally. Feel like shit in the gym. 

 

You still have to count calories just the same as any other diet, though granted its much easier to stay within a calorie guideline without carbs, unless you eat bacon and cream all day 

 

Its a good one if you have no willpower like me or have sweet tooth because you basically just accept you cant compromise and have a mini cheat because going over carb limit knocks you out of ketosis and ruins it so you just cant. 

 

My gf recently did a mini cut via keto. Started at 73kg and ended at 66kg. Took about 5-6 weeks @1500 cal/day quite active though. Didnt get stronger or weaker so stronger relative to new body weight. 

 

 

In summary, it works but its unpleasant and unnecessary 

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Macros in myfitnesspal

Set goals at PFC 25/70/5   Shows goals as 188/233/38(ammended thanks Pseudo)

 

Will start tracking calories probably sunday when prep meals for work

Will make 1kg mince with 2 eggplants (eggplant sliced as lasagna sheets) cheese on top and bake in oven for a bit (attached pic).

 

Tonights snack a broccoli biscuit ha ha. Was vegetarian till added bacon. http://www.ruled.me/keto-broccoli-cheddar-biscuits/

 

2015-12-06 10.12.14.jpg

2015-12-18 20.24.39.jpg

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15 hours ago, Clueless said:

Set goals at PCF 25/70/5   Shows goals as 188/233/38

I presume you mean PFC? Because if that's PCF, it sure ain't keto as I know it!

 

15 hours ago, Clueless said:

Will make 1kg mince with 2 eggplants (eggplant sliced as lasagna sheets) cheese on top and bake in oven for a bit (attached pic).

I'd forgotten this one, but it's a good recipe. Definitely need to add it back into my reportoire! Just be careful the sugar in the pasta sauce doesn't kick you out of keto.

 

You haven't sold me on the "broccoli biscuit" though. Did it taste better than it looks?

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