Dr Squat Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 20% is fatInteresting view that PD has. Rather than carry it on in Rookies log, I thought it might be more appropriate to have an intelligent debate about this comment.My view;It depends on context.Scenario 1-82 kg bodybuilder on stage with say 7-8% bodyfat. Looks in reasonable shape but the general view is that he needed to lose at least a couple of kgs to be sharp enough to win the class. He's too fat.Scenario 2-100 kg powerbuilder who has bodyfat between 20-25%. Does a bit of powerlifting and would maybe like to get on stage at some point way down the track. In the meantime he just wants to be big and strong. He contnues to grow (gain muscle and fat). He's not fat.A different way of looking at things. Interested on other views but not really interested in personal attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyHuman Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 I'm about 14% at the moment and I feel fat. :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grover Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 I think maybe the word FAT is a misnomer in this context of somebody who is working out a la power builder.If it was a sedentary office worker who does no exercise then yes would be considered fatnaturally though this is in all intents and purposes a bodybuilding forum and the ultimate goal should be to reach a competive stage or almost at a regular basis.Perhaps we need a set of guidelines for example4 to 8% competition state8 to 12% cutting phase12 to 15% ideal maintenance state15 to 20 Bulking?20 + lost the plot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phedder Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Perhaps we need a set of guidelines for example4 to 8% competition state8 to 12% cutting phase12 to 15% ideal maintenance state15 to 20 Bulking?20 + lost the plot I'd agree with that :nod: To me 20+% seems the upper limit of what could be considered necessary, gaining any more fat past that point just makes losing it later on more difficult, and its not going to make gaining muscle or strength easier compared to doing it at say the 15% mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsammce Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Perhaps we need a set of guidelines for example4 to 8% competition state8 to 12% cutting phase12 to 15% ideal maintenance state15 to 20 Bulking?20 + lost the plot I'd agree with that :nod: To me 20+% seems the upper limit of what could be considered necessary, gaining any more fat past that point just makes losing it later on more difficult, and its not going to make gaining muscle or strength easier compared to doing it at say the 15% mark.WOW uv changed your tune? read a diff book did ya. yup yup!its about expectations... if your 8% and on a bodybuilding stage u are fat compared to the peoples expectations. if u 8% at the beach then in this society u are fucken lean as the norm is about god knows...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytraps Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Heres my view from a plers perspective. 20% is not fat, most plers above 110s would be around this. Lets be honest, unless your a freak of nature its gonna be near impossible to be 120+ and lean.Perhaps we need a set of guidelines for example4 to 8% competition state8 to 12% cutting phase12 to 15% ideal maintenance state15 to 20 Bulking?20 + lost the plot I'd agree with that :nod: To me 20+% seems the upper limit of what could be considered necessary, gaining any more fat past that point just makes losing it later on more difficult, and its not going to make gaining muscle or strength easier compared to doing it at say the 15% mark.You also got to take into account leverages. A 6'8 guy at 85kg and 15%bf is gonna have a hard time getting strong cos hes got shit leverages. Gaining fat is a necesary evil once yourve reached your limit for muscle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phedder Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 I've changed my tune Tom? You also got to take into account leverages. A 6'8 guy at 85kg and 15%bf is gonna have a hard time getting strong cos hes got shit leverages. Gaining fat is a necesary evil once yourve reached your limit for muscle.Agreed. There's a point when you just need to gain some mass (6'8 85kg) but there's also points when gaining fat isn't necessarily going to help you. Once you've reached your limit for muscle and if you want to try and improve your leverages, then of course you have no choice but to add fat. My point was that those who haven't reached there limit (most people) fat gain isn't really necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Squat Posted January 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 naturally though this is in all intents and purposes a bodybuilding forum and the ultimate goal should be to reach a competive stage or almost at a regular basis.Perhaps we need a set of guidelines for example4 to 8% competition state8 to 12% cutting phase12 to 15% ideal maintenance state15 to 20 Bulking?20 + lost the plot I'd disagree that this is predominately a bodybuilding forum. It's far more diverse than that. I think you would be surprised at how many people are above 20%. Particularly those that weigh more than 90 kg. And after all, that is the manhood threshold lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsammce Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 the more muscle mass u have the higher bodyfat percentage you can be and look leaner. like doc hes prob 40%bf but looks 10% lolyes phedder you tell everyone to eat bad calories to gain muscle... failand phedder what is your real name ay sonny boy so i can call you by that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chemo Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Mirror test trumps numbers every time, people store fat in different areas right?If we are talking about fat as a visual thing then if you look at yourself and your looking a little soft, then yeah your fat. Aesthetically. Like Tom said you can be massive still hold a decent amount of bf bit still look good.I think for a serious business bodybuilder I think they should try not to go over 12, they are supposed to be freaks of nature, and almost expected to be lean all year round. Im sure thats unrealistic but at that point when they look a little less that what im used to seeing, then the words bodybuilder dont spring to mind.For training purposes, 12-15 percent is the right range for general athlete. Listening to an american Podcast for function strength (gridiron). They talked a fair bit about having their athletes lower bf than that, and that was the first thing they would address when training new athletes.And for my personal interests, if I see a fighter holding a bit of unnecessary fat, no matter how skilled the guy is, I still wont think elite athlete.For power lifting, does anyone care? They are freaks for moving massive weight.My perspective, from a guy who hasn't been doing this for a long time, thats kinda what I expect, and the sorta visual things ill think of.Media huh :3"15 to 20 Bulking?" thats my excuse lol 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsammce Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 And for my personal interests, if I see a fighter holding a bit of unnecessary fat, no matter how skilled the guy is, I still wont think elite athlete.Fedor looks like shit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatwaslight Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 I wouldn't say 20% is fat but i'd personally never want to be any higher than that and with a clean(ISH) diet i can't see why you couldn't remain around 15-16 and still make good progress? or is this about carrying more bf for the purposes of pling rookie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sportsgirl Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 It depends on the person as we all carry body fat differently. Some guys might look pretty chubby at 20% and others may just look smooth. Some may actually have lean body parts and their other body parts are fat (like women who have abs but fat asses).I went and had a look in the log and PD was asking how he would know he put on muscle when he was so fat. Well, no one knows for sure really, no matter how lean you are. You won't know until you lean down and see that you are heavier and bigger at the same leanness as you were before or until you do a comprehensive body composition test like a DEXA scan which measures levels of fat, bone and muscle tissue.All you can do is eat right, train right and hope that you've put on a good bit of muscle. Anyway, with powerlifting, the concern is not how much muscle you have but how much weight you can lift. The goal should be to get stronger rather than build muscle, but usually one comes with the other anyway.Then again, some people are better at putting on muscle than others but that's another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grover Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Perception (or beauty) is in the eye of the beholder perhaps.To jump over to the greatest strongman threadCompare Jamie Reeves (20+% BF) with Pudz (8 to 12?)I would much rather be looking like Pudz even if Jamie was stronger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsammce Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 i just read rookies thread and saw this is how this thread came about... just like to put my view in this thread..ok so your 20% bodyfat... ur lifts are going up.... your getting heavier but the kids not getting fatter he natural so its not a sudden water retention issue.... so what is happening??? zomg is it not anymore obvious??? he must be gaining muscle mass!! f*ck me this is just unheard of on this forum without getting fat!! :roll: rookie has been under doc's advice for almost a year as far as i know so he got it down packed! im sure if his goal was to be 8% bodyfat and take pics of himself in the toilets then he woulda already done that a month or so ago.come on guys lets not get hasty because some ppl are gaining muscle and your not lol i know it must feel hard pete being 5foot 1 or sumthing and hitting yr genetic limit at 74kg... lololololp.s stop lieing bout ur weights too... it doing my head in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsammce Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Perception (or beauty) is in the eye of the beholder perhaps.To jump over to the greatest strongman threadCompare Jamie Reeves (20+% BF) with Pudz (8 to 12?)I would much rather be looking like Pudz even if Jamie was stronger!so ur doing a strongman comp and its your lively hood at stake... u gotta win to get yr cash... but you would rather look like pudz and lose than be a lil fatter and look like jamie and win?those guys are in it to win not to look hot for chicks lol wtf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grover Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Perception (or beauty) is in the eye of the beholder perhaps.To jump over to the greatest strongman threadCompare Jamie Reeves (20+% BF) with Pudz (8 to 12?)I would much rather be looking like Pudz even if Jamie was stronger!so ur doing a strongman comp and its your lively hood at stake... u gotta win to get yr cash... but you would rather look like pudz and lose than be a lil fatter and look like jamie and win?those guys are in it to win not to look hot for chicks lol wtf :roll: You are taking what I said the wrong way, I never said they were looking for chicks either hot or cold ones! Personally I would rather look like Pudz, nothing to do with entering or winning a strongman comp.Just making the observation that you can also be successful at strongman without carrying extra BFHey if you are happy at 20+% who cares, be happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsammce Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Perception (or beauty) is in the eye of the beholder perhaps.To jump over to the greatest strongman threadCompare Jamie Reeves (20+% BF) with Pudz (8 to 12?)I would much rather be looking like Pudz even if Jamie was stronger!so ur doing a strongman comp and its your lively hood at stake... u gotta win to get yr cash... but you would rather look like pudz and lose than be a lil fatter and look like jamie and win?those guys are in it to win not to look hot for chicks lol wtf :roll: You are taking what I said the wrong way, I never said they were looking for chicks either hot or cold ones! Personally I would rather look like Pudz, nothing to do with entering or winning a strongman comp.Just making the observation that you can also be successful at strongman without carrying extra BFHey if you are happy at 20+% who cares, be happymy point is if this jamie fulla wanted to look like puds he prob could... but he stronger looking like he does... and his sport is strongman so why would he wanna look like pudz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsammce Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Perception (or beauty) is in the eye of the beholder perhaps.To jump over to the greatest strongman threadCompare Jamie Reeves (20+% BF) with Pudz (8 to 12?)I would much rather be looking like Pudz even if Jamie was stronger!so ur doing a strongman comp and its your lively hood at stake... u gotta win to get yr cash... but you would rather look like pudz and lose than be a lil fatter and look like jamie and win?those guys are in it to win not to look hot for chicks lol wtf :roll: You are taking what I said the wrong way, I never said they were looking for chicks either hot or cold ones! Personally I would rather look like Pudz, nothing to do with entering or winning a strongman comp.Just making the observation that you can also be successful at strongman without carrying extra BFHey if you are happy at 20+% who cares, be happymy point is if this jamie fulla wanted to look like puds he prob could... but he stronger looking like he does... and his sport is strongman so why would he wanna look like pudz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Squat Posted January 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 I wouldn't say 20% is fat but i'd personally never want to be any higher than that and with a clean(ISH) diet i can't see why you couldn't remain around 15-16 and still make good progress? or is this about carrying more bf for the purposes of pling rookie?His bodyfat is what it is. He's eating well and training hard and is healthy. 15-16%, 20-22%, who really gives a rats arse. It's about getting big and strong for him. Why would you even worry within reason. A guy who eats cleanish and trains hard shouldn't waste time with calipers while the goal is to be big and strong. Plenty of time for a summer cut later on (I think that's what you guys call it). The dude is eating a lot of food and getting stronger. My advice has been to forget about worrying about being lean and to eat every 2-3 hours, to train hard and to get lots of rest. Despite what you think I am not a Rookie cheerleader. I give this advice to anyone who wants to listen and it's hardly earth shattering. I have stolen it from lots of people. The fact that Rookie continues to work hard is something we can all learn from. He's at a stage in his life when not a lot else matters (yes I remember those days lol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsammce Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 LOL @ summer cut! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Squat Posted January 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 LOL @ summer cut!It's just a matter of time for me mate. 40%bf will be down to 34% by next summer lol. Hey and I just realised, I am an inch taller than PD. That's made my farken day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grover Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 so ur doing a strongman comp and its your lively hood at stake... u gotta win to get yr cash... but you would rather look like pudz and lose than be a lil fatter and look like jamie and win?those guys are in it to win not to look hot for chicks lol wtf :roll: You are taking what I said the wrong way, I never said they were looking for chicks either hot or cold ones! Personally I would rather look like Pudz, nothing to do with entering or winning a strongman comp.Just making the observation that you can also be successful at strongman without carrying extra BFHey if you are happy at 20+% who cares, be happymy point is if this jamie fulla wanted to look like puds he prob could... but he stronger looking like he does... and his sport is strongman so why would he wanna look like pudz? we are getting away from the topic Is 20% bodyfat fatWithout harping on the Welshman I just saying that he looks fat in comparison to Pudz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perpetual_injuries Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Sorry this goes a wee way in this thread, however, i was wondering if someone could explain to me leveraging? Why is it that you need to get to 12-15% BF to get the best muscle gain. Is muscle gain inhibited by something at 8%? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsammce Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 LOL @ summer cut!It's just a matter of time for me mate. 40%bf will be down to 34% by next summer lol. Hey and I just realised, I am an inch taller than PD. That's made my farken day.im 5inches taller than PD and 6inches longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts