Keto/Cutting Diet Advice

[Muzz]

Hey All,

I was wondering if I would be able to milk some of the "Wealth of Knowledge", some of you guys and girls have to offer in regards to cutting up.

My Current Stats are 5'9, 85kgs and approx 17% BF.

My Goals - A very Lean 6% - regardless of final Bodyweight, (as it can be put back on in lean mass over a longer period of time next year - Small increments). JUST WANTING TO BE CUT UP FOR THIS COMING SUMMER HOLIDAY PERIOD, I GUESS.

I have currently been doing some what of a CKD for the past four weeks and its been "OK" so far. However was wanting to know if it would be recommended to cut out the Cyclical Carb Loading phase (Weekends), Continue the Weight Training, Up the Cardio, and stick with the same diet for the rest of the year (As hard as I know this might be), in order to achieve a Greater Fat Burning Process?

I have worked out my Calorie, Protein, Fat and Carb Count.

85kgs (191.25lbs) x 16 (cals per lb) = 3060cals per day.

Thought I would decrease it by 260 = 2800 (Round Figure, as well as creating a deficit).

So for this Cal count:

Protein Levels (Weight x 0.9)

191.25 x 0.9 = 172.125 (173 grams of Protein per day)

4 Calories for Protein (173gm x 4 = 672cals of Protein per day)

Carb Levels (Below 30grams for Ketosis)

4 Calories for Carbs (30 x 4 = 120cals of Carb per day)

Fat Levels (Left over Cals make up Fat content)

9 Caloreis for Fat

Total Cals – Protein n Carbs = Fat Cals

2800 – 672 (Protein Cals) = 2128

With that in mind, I came up with a Cheap and Easy to maintain (However Boring) Diet.

Daily Limit

Protein 173g

Carbs 30g

Fats 223g

Calories 2800

Breakfast

4 x 50g Bacon

4 x Eggs

2T Olive Oil

P=55.2g, C=6.8g, F=66g,Cals=824.4

Morning Tea

4 x Celery Sticks (120g)

20g Peanut Butter

P=6.3g, C=5.3g, F=10.2g, Cals=138.2

Lunch

100g Beef Sticks

100g Brocoli/Cauliflower

2T Olive Oil

P=24.3g, C=1.7g, F=40.7g, Cals=470.3

Arvo Tea

50g Tasty Cheese

P=24.8g, C=<1g, F=37.3g, Cals=434.9

Dinner

3 x BBQ Beef Patties

100g Brocoli n Cauliflower

2T Olive Oil

P=22.7g, C=14.6g, F=50.8g, Cals=606.4

Evening Snack

4 x Egg Whites (Scrambled)

P=39.4g, C=<2g, F=0g, Cals=164.8

Excess Left Over P=1.1g, C=0g, F=18.55g, Cals=161

As you can see, there are no Supplements (Was wanting to do the All Natural Thing this time around and see how it pans out).

I guess I was wanting Opinions (Good and Bad) from all who know what they are talking about.

In Theory, Ketosis, Extra Cardio and Continued Weight Training for the next 8 weeks (Until Xmas Period) will get reasonable results.

Be Good to hear Opinions on whether this is a Good way to go, or other recommended Cutting Tips (Diets, Training etc).

Thanks Alot for your time (In Advance)

Sorry this is Long Winded!

Cheers,

Muzz

[vracula]

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutr ... -lose-fat/

[Pseudonym]

Hey Muzz. Good to see you've gone and worked out the maths yourself.

You've got the right idea in cutting back little by little - 200cal drops is a good decrease, IMO. Try that for a week, then drop it again if you need. I would take it out of the fats for your next drop though (leave your protein levels up).

Let us know how you get on.

[Muzz]

Nice Read Vracula!

Good to see there's a need to have a cheat day.

And Cheers for the Advice Pseudonym. I know you are a 'Man in the Know', so a 200cal decrease sounds Good. I'll let you know how I get on!

Thanks Again Guys!

[Flex]

Hey Muzz. Good to see you've gone and worked out the maths yourself.

SHEIITE, quote of the century given this....

50g Tasty Cheese

P=24.8g, C=<1g, F=37.3g, Cals=434.9

You might want to check maths again if you're able to get 24.8 grams of protein and 37.3g fat from 50g of cheese - there's a magical 12.1 grams of invisible cheese somewhere there.

4 x Egg Whites (Scrambled)

P=39.4g, C=<2g, F=0g, Cals=164.8

And you won't be getting anywhere near 39.4g of protein from just 4 egg whites - maybe 20g from 4 whites unless you're talking emu eggs or perhaps 8 eggs. That would make your breakfast count out as well if you're assuming that much protein per egg.

[Muzz]

Hey Flex,

Sorry about the Math.

In regards to the cheese, its actually an 100g serving, forgot to change it. Whoops!

And as for the Eggs,.....Sorry about that too!

Thanks Alot for pointing it out though. (Couldn't find my original diet write-up last night) This was just a 'Quick' put together in order to post this topic to get replies to gain more knowledge from you guys.)

Should've done some proof-reading before posting it. Sorry!!!

However, My Breakfast Eggs are (Full Eggs), where as my evening snack are Egg Whites.

I got last nights (Egg White) numbers from Cal Counter (Hence the differing totals)

The Nutrition info for my Morning Eggs is (Now found my Diet Info)

P=25.2g, C=1.6g, F=28g, Cals=359.2

But seeing there are no Yokes in the evening Equation, my Deficit totals change a lil bit. (Total Cals for Evening Meal=359.2 - (Fat Cals 28x9=252 and Carb Cals 1.6x4=6.4) = 100.8cals

And this also changes my Total Deficit Nutrition Info as well. (Will Sort That Out)

Guess this shows, I need more tweeking in the diet, and as Pseudonym pointed out, I will need to decrease 200 or so cals a week, which ofcourse changes my totals as well etc. Keeping in mind, I still need to get and keep my Protein content up. (Learning Curves!)

Thanks Alot for Your Time Mate!

I really Appreciate it!

Any other tips, feel free to let me know.

I want to Learn as much as I can!

Cheers,

Muzz

[Flex]

I'm not sure you could do true ketosis for 8 weeks. One it's not that good for you to be in ketosis for extended periods, and two mentally it's going to be hard not to have any carbs over the whole period.

You won't need to do cardio if you are going to be in ketosis for 8 weeks. Keto diets are designed around little if any cardio - the cardio is really only needed to get you back into ketosis after carbing up over the weekend. Ketosis is a permanent fat burning state so you don't need to do anything to increase that as you are burning fat at rest. If you go and do cardio everyday you are never going to have enough energy for weight training and you'll probably just end up losing heaps of muscle.

You're going to need a fair few supplements to help out as well. Protein sparing supps like Methoxy/ecdysterone, HMB, Leucine, glutamine and BCAA's would be good. A basic test booster would help maintain muscle (suitability depending on your age), and a stimulant based thermo is mandatory (dmaa and/or some form of PEA & caffeine would be good) otherwise you're going to feel like shit the whole time. Plus you'll need a potassium and magnesium supplement to help maintain heart health and avoid cramping and muscle spasms and some antioxidants/vitamins would be good too.

I'm not sure if you've worked out the formula for your current bodymass and your desired fat %. At 17% and 85kg your leanmass is roughly 70.5kg. If you don't lose a single gram of muscle to get to 6% you need to lose 10kg of fatmass over 8 weeks with final bodyweight of 75kg. 6% is very lean, and most guys this lean won't be 6% for very long, maybe a few days for a photoshoot or bb contest. If someone tells you they maintain 6% on a daily basis they are either lying to you or the test reading is wrong, or all they do is eat, sleep and train and get paid to do it, most likely using some chemical assistance to maintain that %.

A very Lean 6% - regardless of final Bodyweight, (as it can be put back on in lean mass over a longer period of time next year - Small increments).

Technically you shouldn't lose musclemass on a keto - that's the reason you do a keto diet. It's the most unfun thing you can do so you don't want to be losing muscle. That's why the decent keto's incorporate the carb up phase. If you just want to do a keto to lose weight then you'd do the atkins diet. If you want to do a keto properly eg maintain or even add muscle mass then you do a CKD, bodyopus or similar.

[Pseudonym]

I'm not sure you could do true ketosis for 8 weeks. One it's not that good for you to be in ketosis for extended periods, and two mentally it's going to be hard not to have any carbs over the whole period.

Can you expand on this, Flex? Why's keto unhealthy long-term?

I did the Anabolic Diet a while back (a CKD variant) and liked it enough that I was seriously considering doing it long-term. I found it easy to stick to, but flexible enough that it could incorporate a bit of "cheating". We were allowed up to 30g of carbs a day though - so we were only on the edges of ketosis. Are you talking about a stricter form of the diet being unhealthy?

[Flex]

Extended ketosis could result in ketoacidosis which isn't really too good for you. You tend to get pretty depleted in electrolytes and calcium as well which can effect muscle function, bone density and might not be good for the heart. There are some theories that keto diets decrease your insulin sensitivity. When you go back to eating carbs your body shits itself and doesn't know what to do with all the glucose and stores it all as fat. Most keto diets now prescribe a taper back onto carbs upon conclusion of the diet, in conjunction with supps to improve insulin sensitivity or help with glucose disposal so that you don't just turn into jabba the hutt once you add the carbs. The body opus utilises carb timing for the carb up over the weekend with different types of carbs used throughout the 48hour carb up phase which should help with this. I'm not sure what other CKD's do as far as the carb up. I never really had too much issue with a decrease in insulin sensitivity after the Body Opus or fatfast and velocity diets but I did use a lot of Alpha-lipoic acid and Vanadyl sulphate back then so that would have helped out.

[Flex]

We were allowed up to 30g of carbs a day though - so we were only on the edges of ketosis.

Ketosis is ketosis whether you're eating carbs or not. If you can truely stay in ketosis with 30grams of carbs it makes no difference than if you were eating 0g of carbs and in ketosis. The problem with allowing 30g of carbs depends on where your carbs are coming from. If you are eating some form of carbs then you should be using ketosticks to ensure you are staying in ketosis and not over carbing. You get carbs in things that you probably don't think you are getting carbs in so you need to be careful once you start adding them. I found it easier just sticking with proteins (meat, dairy, eggs) and fats (nuts, seeds etc) that have carbs in them, as opposed to adding actual carbs in like vegetables etc.

Bacon, some cheese and certain nuts can hide a lot of carbs so you need to be careful there. And don't do what I hear lot of guys doing by heading to the local McDs or K fry and getting a burger and ditching the bun, you never know what they put in those patties.

[Muzz]

Thanks for the Info Flex......

Bloody "MASSIVE WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE"!!!!

I'll take everything onboard, Document everything I'm doing and let you know how I get on!

Thanks Again for your Time,

I really Appreciate It!!!

[Optimass]

I knew a female bbuilder that essentially dieted for 4-6 months in ketosis after competing - couldn't get her head around putting a normal amount of fat and water back on after the show (IMo demonstrating similar behaviour to Anorexia) - not a good look. She suffer a significant amount of hair loss and skin condition was very bad. I know there were further complications with re-introducing carb meals too.

You have to keep in the back of your mind that keto is not a "normal" lifestyle plan.

Body Building is tough on the guys but it is so much more challenging for a female in that respect.

[Pseudonym]

Wow, Opti, that sounds scary! By contrast, I was on the diet for 4+ months too, and never felt healthier. I was eating heaps of salads, and loads of good fats. But I was still on reasonably high calories.

The only complication I had when re-introducing carbs was feeling quite bloated and gassy for the first week or so.

If you are eating some form of carbs then you should be using ketosticks to ensure you are staying in ketosis and not over carbing.

Interesting you should say that, because I recently failed to register on the ketostix - and this on a diet that absolutely should have put me deep in ketosis. That's a subject for another topic, but hypothetically, is there a problem with not being in ketosis, provided you're still in a caloric deficit?

[Flex]

is there a problem with not being in ketosis, provided you're still in a caloric deficit?

No but then it's not a ketogenic diet. It's just an dirty, not a lot of fun low carb diet that requires cardio. If you're going to be that close to ketosis you may as well be in ketosis.

[Optimass]

is there a problem with not being in ketosis, provided you're still in a caloric deficit?

No but then it's not a ketogenic diet. It's just an dirty, not a lot of fun low carb diet that requires cardio. If you're going to be that close to ketosis you may as well be in ketosis.

:nod: Ketogenic diets have only trace carbs (if any) like atkins. You certainly know our shit Flex. Some great info in this thread.

Wow, Opti, that sounds scary! By contrast, I was on the diet for 4+ months too, and never felt healthier.

Not quite what I was pointing out - she had dieted down to extremely low bfat and then continued in ketosis for 4-6 months after to try maintain her competition bfat%.

Keto sticks can be unreliable too - IME caffiene and other supplementation can sometimes affect the result. It would also take a lot longer to achieve "full ketosis" on your plan as there were still carbs in there. I have known people to take up to 2 weeks before they are measuring heavy ketones and even then the body is only just getting used to using them as an energy source. It's why many people found weeks 2-4 on atkins to be the most challenging ........... > body applying resource to breaking down proteins > brain desciding it needs ketones to function > body going through withdrawl from years of having an abundance of carbs (glucose) on hand. (No different in some cases to a person trying to break an addiction IMO)

[HumanPerformance]

Extended ketosis could result in ketoacidosis which isn't really too good for you. You tend to get pretty depleted in electrolytes and calcium as well which can effect muscle function, bone density and might not be good for the heart. There are some theories that keto diets decrease your insulin sensitivity. When you go back to eating carbs your body shits itself and doesn't know what to do with all the glucose and stores it all as fat. Most keto diets now prescribe a taper back onto carbs upon conclusion of the diet, in conjunction with supps to improve insulin sensitivity or help with glucose disposal so that you don't just turn into jabba the hutt once you add the carbs. The body opus utilises carb timing for the carb up over the weekend with different types of carbs used throughout the 48hour carb up phase which should help with this. I'm not sure what other CKD's do as far as the carb up. I never really had too much issue with a decrease in insulin sensitivity after the Body Opus or fatfast and velocity diets but I did use a lot of Alpha-lipoic acid and Vanadyl sulphate back then so that would have helped out.

Is really only a issue for inactive people. As ketones build up it turns the blood more acidic and acidosis can happen. But active people will burn these ketones up (Flex,DD talks about this in BodyOpus pg 254,I know you have read it).

[HumanPerformance]

Wow, Opti, that sounds scary! By contrast, I was on the diet for 4+ months too, and never felt healthier. I was eating heaps of salads, and loads of good fats. But I was still on reasonably high calories.

The only complication I had when re-introducing carbs was feeling quite bloated and gassy for the first week or so.

If you are eating some form of carbs then you should be using ketosticks to ensure you are staying in ketosis and not over carbing.

Interesting you should say that, because I recently failed to register on the ketostix - and this on a diet that absolutely should have put me deep in ketosis. That's a subject for another topic, but hypothetically, is there a problem with not being in ketosis, provided you're still in a caloric deficit?

Yes if you are far enough in Ketosis you can be in a situation where you dont measure at all. This is because your body is currently using all available ketones for its energy requirements. So you neither urinating or exhaling any at that time.

[Optimass]

Wow, Opti, that sounds scary! By contrast, I was on the diet for 4+ months too, and never felt healthier. I was eating heaps of salads, and loads of good fats. But I was still on reasonably high calories.

The only complication I had when re-introducing carbs was feeling quite bloated and gassy for the first week or so.

If you are eating some form of carbs then you should be using ketosticks to ensure you are staying in ketosis and not over carbing.

Interesting you should say that, because I recently failed to register on the ketostix - and this on a diet that absolutely should have put me deep in ketosis. That's a subject for another topic, but hypothetically, is there a problem with not being in ketosis, provided you're still in a caloric deficit?

Yes if you are far enough in Ketosis you can be in a situation where you dont measure at all. This is because your body is currently using all available ketones for its energy requirements. So you neither urinating or exhaling any at that time.

Wicked ... hadnt thought of that.

[Flex]

Is really only a issue for inactive people. As ketones build up it turns the blood more acidic and acidosis can happen. But active people will burn these ketones up (Flex,DD talks about this in BodyOpus pg 254,I know you have read it).

Ok sweet, it's been 10 years since I read it man. The books long gone but if I get another copy I'll make sure to check out page 254.

Yes if you are far enough in Ketosis you can be in a situation where you dont measure at all. This is because your body is currently using all available ketones for its energy requirements. So you neither urinating or exhaling any at that time.

Sweet but I don't think you would measure if you were in ketosis after you had been training because if all going well it should really be a given. It would more likely be after feeding with carbs that you'd want to be measuring ketosis or a few days after the carb load to check where you were. I never used ketosticks, I just relied on the fact that I would often exhale a quite visible gas when I was doing cardio, had the fitness of a 90 year old and couldn't breath for shit while running, and stunk like a feral dog when weight training. Absolutely killed my training gear whenever on a keto diet.

[total_gym1000]

I'm on day 9 of a keto diet. Eating nothing but meat, cheese and veges :nod:

Went from 80.2kg to 78.6kg first week which doesn't seem a lot as i thought the water loss would be more?

First couple of days were tough, by day 3 i had reached ketosis (confirmed by the stix and metallic taste in mouth). I am drinking a shit load of water, probably twice as much as i used to. Sometimes the stix show trace carbs (a light colour) and sometimes dark.. I thought this had to do with how hydrated you are as this affects the concentration of the keytones, how efficient your body is at using them for energy or if your body is breaking down the fatty meal you just ate...I didn't think the stix could be used to tell you if you are in "deep" ketosis or not, you are eiither in or not, right?

The good things i am noticing about keto is that i am up out of bed first thing in the morning, don't feel like i need to snooze all the time like i did when eating carbs. My energy levels i feel have been quite consistent, as previously in the afternoons and other times i would feel quite sluggish and lazy. I've even hit some PB's in the gym which i know is odd, i feel like i am more focused when pushing the weights, everything external is blocked out and it's just me trying to get that fucking weight up, maybe just a psycological thing.. I also don't get the pain in my stomach like if you miss a meal by accident as well, probably cause the fat takes longer do digest so you stay full for longer..

Bad things are for me trying to find a variety of foods to eat. Walking around the supermarket is a mission as basically EVERYTHING on the inner isles are loaded with carbs. At the moment i am quite happy eating steak, bacon, eggs, sausages and broccolli, snacking on cheese, salami and almonds throughout the day, but shit i gotta learn to cook for some variation!

It's the first time i've really cut out the takeaways, sugar loaded drinks, chippies etc from my diet, i'm not counting cals at all, just seeing how my body responds to no carbs and watching the waist line go down, so far so good, i'm hoping to see some good progress in the coming weeks :pray:

- Joe

[Dubble_D]

What are the experts view on Keto for a 'Lean' Bulk?

i.e Keto or CKD?

[PeterDolan]

What are the experts view on Keto for a 'Lean' Bulk?

i.e Keto or CKD?

You need to carbs to gain mass, add in some cardio if you are carb sensitive to keep BF in check.

I'd start off around 2g per lb of mass. If you gain fat quickly, cut back, if gaining then up it by 20g or so until you find you gain a little. The pro's would say something like half a kg per week would be good but for the guys not running gear that just isn't realistic

[total_gym1000]

What are the experts view on Keto for a 'Lean' Bulk?

i.e Keto or CKD?

You need to carbs to gain mass

So even if you are in caloric excess with keto you will not gain mass? :-s

[PeterDolan]

What are the experts view on Keto for a 'Lean' Bulk?

i.e Keto or CKD?

You need to carbs to gain mass

So even if you are in caloric excess with keto you will not gain mass? :-s

Bingo

[Dubble_D]

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=JtCZ ... &q&f=false

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