JOSEF RAKICH Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 They way i look at it is you should just treat cardio like a weights session.And how do you think they should be treated?Not in a fasted state lol..Calories in before/Calories in after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drizzt Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 They way i look at it is you should just treat cardio like a weights session.And how do you think they should be treated?Not in a fasted state lol..Uh-oh, I've been doing it wrong! :shifty:I train - mainly weight trainings but sometimes cardio too - about 14hours into a 16 hour fast (consuming BCAAs pre/intra workout, though), and have been doing so with no troubles for almost 3 months. Getting stronger too, and staying pretty lean considering my cardio is almost non-existant at the mo... Magic?Interested to hear your thoughts on intermittent fasting then, Josef? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOSEF RAKICH Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 And how do you think they should be treated?Not in a fasted state lol..Uh-oh, I've been doing it wrong! :shifty:I train - mainly weight trainings but sometimes cardio too - about 14hours into a 16 hour fast (consuming BCAAs pre/intra workout, though), and have been doing so with no troubles for almost 3 months. Getting stronger too, and staying pretty lean considering my cardio is almost non-existant at the mo... Magic?Interested to hear your thoughts on intermittent fasting then, Josef? What do you mean you train 14 hours into your 16 hour fast?See you still dont understand im not saying you wont stay lean or wont lose bodyfat when performing cardio in a fasted state, im talking about you will lose muscle mass moreso than performing cardio in a feed state.Cardio work will increase nutrient partitioning towards muscle tissue and away from fat tissue. One should take advantage of this by consuming the bulk of their carbohydrate intake around this time. The benefits are that these nutrients induce fat storage, but will rather be stored in muscle tissue. Why would you want to deny your muscles nutrients at the most crucial time of the day, but then provide them during rest? It does not make sense. Treat your cardiovascular work like your lifting. When perofming cardio the aim is to buy calories to put yourself in a calorie delfect which will have you losing fat, dont try and burn bodyfat during your cardio session this will only increase the chance of burning muscle also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamfatboy Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 im not saying you wont stay lean or wont lose bodyfat when performing cardio in a fasted state, im talking about you will lose muscle mass moreso than performing cardio in a feed state.Cardio work will increase nutrient partitioning towards muscle tissue and away from fat tissue. One should take advantage of this by consuming the bulk of their carbohydrate intake around this time. The benefits are that these nutrients induce fat storage, but will rather be stored in muscle tissue. Why would you want to deny your muscles nutrients at the most crucial time of the day, but then provide them during rest? It does not make sense. Treat your cardiovascular work like your lifting. When perofming cardio the aim is to buy calories to put yourself in a calorie deficit which will have you losing fat, dont try and burn bodyfat during your cardio session this will only increase the chance of burning muscle also.There are times when I realise how little I truly know.... but from what you're saying, fasted cardio makes less and less sense the leaner you become? It would make more sense for someone at >20% bf, than for someone < 10%, because the muscle loss would be proportionally much greater?I take a couple of things from this: a. you say "the chance" - which tells me that this is an inexact science (like everything else about bodybuilding, every single metabolism is different in the fine-grained details of how they respond); and b. Doing cardio fasted, and then having a meal with carbs, will increase the chance that the nutrients will be stored in muscle, not as fat ?Discuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 There are times when I realise how little I truly know.... Gonna have to (slightly) disagree with ya there TFB...in this I case I'm beginning to realise just how little Mr Rakich knows...or at least, is willing to learn. You cling to your opinions like a drowning man clutching at driftwood, stating over and over that you are right and all else is wrong. Keto is crap, fasted cardio doesn't work, blah blah blah, despite the fact that several members on here have pointed out where you are "less than correct". As Drizzt suggested in this case, go look into Intermittent Fasting, just as one area in which you aren't quite right. Maybe you personally don't like fasted cardio, doesn't mean it doesn't work. Even outside of the context of IF, you should be able to stumble your way across any number of studies that show that it can be effective, you just have to be willing to accept that there might be people out there that know more than you about some things.Bottom line...stop being so closed-minded, and open yourself up to new possibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drizzt Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 What do you mean you train 14 hours into your 16 hour fast?I fast for 16 hours out of every day, and eat all of my calories in an 8 hour window. 2 hours before my "eating window" opens, I do weight training - so I'm training 14 hours into my fast. Same goes for cardio days (of which there haven't been many lately :oops:), but usually closer to my eating window so I can have a meal soon after.My sessions these days are based in Powerlifting (Sheiko), so the goal is to get stronger. These sessions also take near on 2 hours to complete per train, so once I'm done with my session, I smash a HUGE meal. A good chunk - more than half - of my daily calories. I'm not going to go into macros here with ya (my training day meal includes plenty of carbs and protein though, just so ya know ) as it's not the point of the thread.I'm continuing to at least keep my leannness from before the diet/Sheiko program, my muscles have noticeably gained in size in areas (traps, hams and chest in particular), and lately I've even leaned up a little further.Just pointing out, as Ronin did above, there are many different ways to get to the goal we're all trying to achieve. I'm thinking pretty much everything I just said goes against what you're saying :pfft: But that's the fun of it! Realizing how little we know, and then broadening our knowledge because we realize there may not be just "one" good way to do things.Just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grover Posted December 3, 2010 Report Share Posted December 3, 2010 :shock: fasting for 16 hours, after getting into the habit of eating every 3 I feel like I'm dying if for some reason late having my next feed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOSEF RAKICH Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 There are times when I realise how little I truly know.... Gonna have to (slightly) disagree with ya there TFB...in this I case I'm beginning to realise just how little Mr Rakich knows...or at least, is willing to learn. You cling to your opinions like a drowning man clutching at driftwood, stating over and over that you are right and all else is wrong. Keto is crap, fasted cardio doesn't work, blah blah blah, despite the fact that several members on here have pointed out where you are "less than correct". As Drizzt suggested in this case, go look into Intermittent Fasting, just as one area in which you aren't quite right. Maybe you personally don't like fasted cardio, doesn't mean it doesn't work. Even outside of the context of IF, you should be able to stumble your way across any number of studies that show that it can be effective, you just have to be willing to accept that there might be people out there that know more than you about some things.Bottom line...stop being so closed-minded, and open yourself up to new possibilities.Im not exctlly saying keto is crap and fasted cardio dosent work, all i am saying is a diet with carbs and cardio in a feed state is much better for preserving muscle mass, which is the number 1 goal when cutting. I have posted and proved to as why its better, now please explain to me how fasted cardio and a keto diet is "better".Its like comparing a Ferarri to a bicycle. Yeah sure both will get you there, but one is much superior to the other. You carry on riding your bicycle, i will carry on driving my Ferarri. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drizzt Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 :shock: fasting for 16 hours, after getting into the habit of eating every 3 I feel like I'm dying if for some reason late having my next feed!That's a funny quirk of IF, as I got much hungrier when I was grazing every couple of hours. On the IF I rarely get hungry at all, to the point where I'm generally satisfied with 2 large meals, and need to remember another meal or 2 to get my cals in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phedder Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 I have posted and proved to as why its better, now please explain to me how fasted cardio and a keto diet is "better".No you haven't. You've provided your theories for why they're better, but no solid evidence backed up by clinical studies. Here's one for keto diets sparing muscle mass, which is actually a discussion of multiple studies. http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pd ... 75-3-9.pdfThe conclusion it draws;ConclusionAlthough more long-term studies are needed before a firmconclusion can be drawn, it appears, from most literaturestudied, that a VLCARB is, if anything, protective againstmuscle protein catabolism during energy restriction, providedthat it contains adequate amounts of protein.I can't find any specific studies about endurance exercise and muscle loss, but this is close enough;http://jp.physoc.org/content/early/2010 ... 0.196493v1that's just the abstract as the whole study isn't free, but this summarizes the study, the link I posted earlier; http://www.leangains.com/2010/09/fasted ... ivity.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted December 4, 2010 Report Share Posted December 4, 2010 :shock: fasting for 16 hours, after getting into the habit of eating every 3 I feel like I'm dying if for some reason late having my next feed!That's a funny quirk of IF, as I got much hungrier when I was grazing every couple of hours. On the IF I rarely get hungry at all, to the point where I'm generally satisfied with 2 large meals, and need to remember another meal or 2 to get my cals in.Concur, I found the same. And that's one of the reasons I'll be going back to IF as of Monday. Spending this weekend getting used to it again, 12 hour window today, 10 hour tomorrow, and into it Mon. Gonna be interesting test, as my window will be 0800-1600 this time, instead of the 1500-2100 one I did last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wutang Posted December 5, 2010 Report Share Posted December 5, 2010 I prefer it on an empty stomach first thing in the morning just feels better having breakfast after Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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