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Whens the best time to take creatine?


Soldat

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You didn't answer any of my questions, if you are answering my MT 400% statement, I was sarcastic about that.

The study I was referring to was based on actual uptake and creatinine levels in actual human beings. On paper a lot of things look good but does not pan out in real life.

I am not saying Kre Akalyn does not work I am just saying there is now way you can claim it is 10 X more effective, and that the study shows good old monohydrate is more effective, more stable and less toxic.

Also would you know from what creatine is the Kre Alkalyn derived?

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I doubt that very much. Kre-Alkalyn is 100% stable. I would like to see any other creatine with a pH level of 6.9 or less and be stable, but do share.

I have study of the Bulgarian Olympic weight lifting team with a 28%+ increase in 60 days, among other things.

If you are referring to the effectiveness as merely being bulk, then yes I would agree totally.

There is NO loading or cycling for the simple fact that Kre-Alkalyn is 100% stable so your body accepts the product in lower doses and that’s why it is basically why it is 10 time more effective.. You use up to 10 times less product when NO loading and cycling applies.

This is not to mention NO side effect, like diarrhea, bloating, gas, sore stomach etc etc due to cycling and loading being nothing more than a way to force a bi-product of your kidneys into your body only for your body to have to try the remove it again. Kind of a pointless exercise IMHO.

There is nothing better than Kre-Alkalyn.. Period..

Oh yeah.. also have info showing creatine normally converts to creatinine in well under 9 minute unless it is 100% stable and the only way that can be achieved is by raising the pH level to 12 and a couple of other patented secrets.

nothing beats good old creatine mono. admit it brah

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i'm going to back up Hennie on this one, you see the studies performed on kre-alkalyn were all done by the patent holders and inventers of it and when looking through the international databases on sports nutrition there is a gaping hole with a lack of research tht verifies these claims...

and 10x superior is a very VERY large claim. e.g. if creatine helped me increase in a bench press lift by 2kg would i then be benching 20kg?

Creatine mono has had 1000's of articles of research done on it and is highly regarded by the Australian Institute of Sport and supplied to their athletes (last time I checked in with them.... a couple of days ago that is). So with a hell of a lot of science and evidence backing creatine mono i'm going to have to stand behind it on this one

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Nice post by Layne Norton

"Cee & Kre-alkalyn Debunked!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (Creapure?). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Kre-alkalyn? supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. DrTallon@CR-Technologies.net

All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn? (KA) a ?Buffered? creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (Creapure?). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.

I was at the ISSN conference when Mark Tallon presented these and I literally almost high fived him. It's about time this crap died!

Now no more of this "cee works bro & kre-alkyln works bro' bull****

-Layne

__________________

Natural Pro Bodybuilder "

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doubledworks is obviously a salesman!

Haha.. far from it.. I use it. I have a huge shelf full for personal use.

IMO if you have every product under the sun like most, that is a sales person.. I only promote the best of the best, beacuse I believe in it 100%.. I forget the rest.. After all why would I want lower grade products. If I do not use it myself, I never mention it.. hence i would never ever sell it..

Does that really sound like a salesman.. I think not dude..

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Does that really sound like a salesman.. I think not dude..

yea it does

What a suprise..

Perhaps you should have a look into my other posts as well.

You seem to be rather bored..

You may even learn something that you didn't know..

You may even care..

LMFAO..

is that all 6posts? 5 of them being on kre-alkalyn?

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lmfao at this thread, CEE is shithouse

Have to agree completely.

Those that want to understand why can download the free 38 page book below which explains most if not ALL about the different types of Creatine.

...and yes CM is right up there - it has to be - so check it out to find out why.

http://www.doubledproducts.co.nz/files/Creatine-Facts.pdf

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lmfao at this thread, CEE is shithouse

3169338118_dfd60c6653.jpg

Have to agree completely.

Those that want to understand why can download the free 38 page book below which explains most if not ALL about the different types of Creatine.

...and yes CM is right up there - it has to be - so check it out to find out why.

http://www.doubledproducts.co.nz/files/Creatine-Facts.pdf

:pfft: you're a tool. stop trying to sell shit.

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Just brought some PVL Crea maxx creatine,just woundering when is the best time to take it durring the loading stage and then after? cheers :)

when loading in the morining, before workout, after workout, then before bed

once you have loaded on workout days, before and after training (30 min) then on rest days morning evening

:ditto:

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:pfft: you're a tool. stop trying to sell shit.

Looks like some really don't get it... Perhaps it’s not about selling anything... If it was I could mention everything and anything on the planet... and I would certainly stock standard pure Creatine Mono... LOL... Clearly it is popular here, as it is elsewhere... I really don’t care if you take advantage of the info or not... It makes no difference to me... But if you do want to understand most if not ALL you need to know about synthetic forms of Creatine, the info is correct and backed up... You do need both eyes open though...

You only have to read the posts on a few sites over a few days to see that there is heaps of misinformation flying around... Most is not verifiable and therefore can not be backed up by any independent sources. The basic concepts regarding the posts do have similarities however after that things become very unclear... No one seems to know exactly what it is, or how it is made, other than naming the three amino’s etc or they would understand why Creatine Monohydrate is the best form and say why... If someone has, I have yet to see it... Simply saying something is great is not going to cut it with me... You too, I would say... LOL...

The information and process etc within has been verified many times over and is being verified over and over again around the world in independent labs... Each time such tests take place the entire process takes about 18 months AND the results need to be 100% identical... Hence it would be not only hard to fake the results, it would be completely impossible... Patents don't grow on trees you know...

If you have info to the contrary that is “cross verified”, then post it...

http://www.doubledproducts.co.nz/files/Creatine-Facts.pdf

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Nice post by Layne Norton

"Cee & Kre-alkalyn Debunked!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R1 and Tallon MJ2

1Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. 2University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (San CM2 Alpha) avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE (San CM2 Alpha and CE2) and commercially available CM (Creapure?). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes. Creatine availability was assessed by immediately assaying for free creatine, CEE and the creatine breakdown product creatinine, using HPLC (UV)

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from San CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence creatines such as San CM2 and CE2 are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Kre-alkalyn? supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

Tallon MJ1 and Child R2

1University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, 2Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. DrTallon@CR-Technologies.net

All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn? (KA) a ?Buffered? creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (Creapure?). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37? 1oC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.

I was at the ISSN conference when Mark Tallon presented these and I literally almost high fived him. It's about time this crap died!

Now no more of this "cee works bro & kre-alkyln works bro' bull****

-Layne

__________________

Natural Pro Bodybuilder "

Sorry to burst your bubble but after further investigation I dug this up and dude and Layne may want to print a retraction to the above statement, due to the fact that Mark J Tallon and associates have been sued, dated 2nd October 2009.

A default judgment was granted (see attached document) and in time, he will have to write a retraction. He lost because 1) he could not produce any documents showing this study had been performed 2) he basically didn’t show up to court to defend it. Plus his lawyers quit, for obvious reasons.

Here is the proof.

http://www.doubledproducts.co.nz/files/ ... Tallon.pdf

As I said before, words mean very little without confirmed evidence to support it.

Note that this is not an attempt to be right, just pointing out the facts.

Mono still works. There is no denying that. It does however work better when it is manufactured correctly. This is why some brands work better than others.

This is also why other type of synthetic Creatine can sometimes out perform Mono. If the Mono is low grade and the alternate type contain more Mono, it will likely out perform the one stating Mono on the label. After all, all synthetic Creatine is based on Mono. It has to be.

The most pure Mono sits around 88% Creatine and 12% water (catalyst) which is trapped during the reaction process.

If Creatine is not this pure it will normally contain contaminants and some may not be legal for competition.

It is my view that paying for the best you can get, is money well spent.

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There's no bubble to burst, captain. It's not a contest, just science vs bro science.

All that says is that he was sued and didn't defend himself. Make of that what you will. I read your pdf and it doesn't list any peer reviewed published studies on kre-alkalyn. It's just advertising material for All American EFX. It may fool many people but I'm unimpressed. We all know there are many published studies on creatine monohydrate as your own pdf admits (It actually kneecaps itself by stating "Creatine Monohydrate is the ONLY form of creatine backed by 200+ studies, with over 70 published in peer-reviewed journals") but then doesn't show one published study proving its improvement over creatine monohydrate, or any published study showing its effectiveness at all.

Perhaps it works, perhaps it doesn't, but without actual science it's just a claim. In fact I'll be pleased if published studies can be found can because then it'll show there is a scientifically proven alternative to creatine monohydrate.

By the way, you'll find it hard to get respect from members here when all you've done from post one is come on here and try to push a product you're selling, even if you could back up your claims. Established members have tried to start selling and have been ridiculed off the forum, I can't see your fate being any different.

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