nzfbb testing

[rigger]

Good stuff nate225 you do your research and know your stuff. Like you I also think the WADA rules regarding athlete whereabouts is too narrow.

When the NZFBB embraced the testing I thought it was great and it certainly was a factor in helping me do well in Contest's.

Although I always submitted to do the testing, in competition in NZ and overseas and at home found it annoying that even if I didn't win nor was any where near the largest bodybuilder it was usually I who got grabbed to do the test. I also found one or two of the testers to be like little Hitlers as well. My Wife got scared late one night at home when I was working night shift by two of the buggers around the back of the house. When they found out I wasn't home and even though my wife gave them my work address they still packed a shitty and wouldn't tell her who they were and what they wanted and hung around outside for quite sometime. A couple of days later they turned up one morning when I was sleeping due to night shift and got me to do the test. Once at a Contest in Wellington not that long ago they blocked my exit from the back of the stage in case I was gonna do a runner. So I 've done plenty of them. I would always say to new contestants family and friends that yes we have drug testing, but now I think it's all gone too far.

I think bodybuilding is better off without it. I just think bodybuilding is more of an art form than a sport. And an Elite division is quite a good idea in fact I competed in it last year and really enjoyed it.

[michaelk]

Heck the prestigious Pro Card looks like something a five year old designed and wacked through their home laminator :wink:

awwww i feel like i just told you santa's not real :pfft:

amen brother!!! lol

yes i agree NABBA has their issues also

Hardly, I know where I stand within the Pro bodybuilding community, but hey it's better to be invited to the party than not at all.

awww you sound like the guy that complains about how lame the popular kids are and says you don't want to be part of that group when really you do :nod: :pfft:

Ps the card isn't even laminated!!!!, but it's still an invite to the big show.

[michaelk]

Feel free to show actual examples with evidence to support these claims Rigger - I'm a science grad so tend not to buy into anecdotal heresay.

Nate

You sound like a flat earth society member, back in 03 I had two tests 4 days apart where there was a 40% variation in test to epi test ratio's, unless I was to cut off a nut- something isn't right. If the same standard of testing was used by police for drink drive tests it would be thrown out of court.

This isn't anecdotal or hearsay, I am a personal witness to and recipient of the poor standard.

What we say is that while the current testing is the best "gold standard" available to all other sports- we want to either be subject to a better standard of testing, chain of custody, storage and policy. If WADA can't provide it, then let us determine our best practice policy for our members.

If that doesn't suit all the members from other sporting communities, we'll lose little sleep over it. But then I don't hear anyone complaining that the racing industry conduct their own testing policy and they are a lot more mainstream with public money investment and participation.

[mr natural]

Heck the prestigious Pro Card looks like something a five year old designed and wacked through their home laminator :wink:

awwww i feel like i just told you santa's not real :pfft:

amen brother!!! lol

yes i agree NABBA has their issues also

Hardly, I know where I stand within the Pro bodybuilding community, but hey it's better to be invited to the party than not at all.

awww you sound like the guy that complains about how lame the popular kids are and says you don't want to be part of that group when really you do :nod: :pfft:

Ps the card isn't even laminated!!!!, but it's still an invite to the big show.

hahaha not a bad come back Mk but like your "pro" physique it needs more work :pfft: lol

just giving ya shit mate :grin:

[Android]

....

And Android, do you think that anyone cared anything other than what you looked like onstage last year when you won, OR are you implying you only won because you also sponsored the show? :wink:

I don't get your question Mike, are you implying you couldn't take your eyes off my tall muscular frame OR are you implying NZFBB Judges are corrupt and swayed by small amounts of cash $$$ ;-) come on be honest Mikey.

[Matrix]

I compete in NABBA Athletic class and do so because when I started training for a comp the NZBB Classic class hadn't yet been introduced.

As far as the steroid using/non using thing goes, I think the only time I would feel generally pissed if I lost to a guy that was using would be if I was competing in a federation that states that it is implicitly for naturals and tests/polygraphs etc.

If guys/girls compete in these feds juiced then that IMO is really pathetic and makes them plain cheats.

Its common knowledge in BB circles that some people use and some dont in both major feds. Personally if I get beaten by someone who I think(big subjective here) is using, then to me that is motivation to train and diet harder.

On the subject that Mike D touched on, yes there are guys in all catorgories that use all sorts of goodies(legal and not) to lean out, but personally at an amateur level, your level of conditioning/leaness is the one thing that you can control and be on par with users with IMO. It just takes dedication and perhaps more time on your pre comp diet and training. Note, im not talking about pro level conditioning, just achieving a ripped physique with mid-low single figure bodyfat and getting your water dropped right. I think this can be done very effectively without drugs IMO.

[Android]

As far as the steroid using/non using thing goes, I think the only time I would feel generally pissed if I lost to a guy that was using would be if I was competing in a federation that states that it is implicitly for naturals and tests/polygraphs etc.

If guys/girls compete in these feds juiced then that IMO is really pathetic and makes them plain cheats.

Yes totally agree and everyone else would also I am sure

On the subject that Mike D touched on, yes there are guys in all catorgories that use all sorts of goodies(legal and not) to lean out, but personally at an amateur level, your level of conditioning/leaness is the one thing that you can control and be on par with users with IMO. It just takes dedication and perhaps more time on your pre comp diet and training. Note, im not talking about pro level conditioning, just achieving a ripped physique with mid-low single figure bodyfat and getting your water dropped right. I think this can be done very effectively without drugs IMO.

Again, yes agree

[Optimass]

As far as the steroid using/non using thing goes, I think the only time I would feel generally pissed if I lost to a guy that was using would be if I was competing in a federation that states that it is implicitly for naturals and tests/polygraphs etc.

If guys/girls compete in these feds juiced then that IMO is really pathetic and makes them plain cheats.

Yes totally agree and everyone else would also I am sure

On the subject that Mike D touched on, yes there are guys in all catorgories that use all sorts of goodies(legal and not) to lean out, but personally at an amateur level, your level of conditioning/leaness is the one thing that you can control and be on par with users with IMO. It just takes dedication and perhaps more time on your pre comp diet and training. Note, im not talking about pro level conditioning, just achieving a ripped physique with mid-low single figure bodyfat and getting your water dropped right. I think this can be done very effectively without drugs IMO.

Again, yes agree

So Dorian / Haney / Arnie ... all cheats :roll:

[nicksmith3]

It's been a great read here guys.

Cheers! :clap:

[Android]

ditto, glad others added their own views here as well, the actual 'players' have a slightly different view to the decision-makers it seems.

[michaelk]

Aahhh sorry to razz on you Android but I don't think I've read the opinion on here of the "decision makers" to decide whether it's different from the "players", but then again as most of them (the decision makers) have competed (and some still do) in and for New Zeland, aren't they BOTH Players and Decision Makers.

If anyone disagrees, there's votes to be cast this year, put up your hand to change from within or put your vote in for the person that most accurately represents your view. And to be fair, the views on here are all fairly different, some the same as some decision makers I'd bet.

[Android]

Aahhh sorry to razz on you Android but I don't think I've read the opinion on here of the "decision makers" to decide whether it's different from the "players", but then again as most of them (the decision makers) have competed (and some still do) in and for New Zeland, aren't they BOTH Players and Decision Makers.

If anyone disagrees, there's votes to be cast this year, put up your hand to change from within or put your vote in for the person that most accurately represents your view. And to be fair, the views on here are all fairly different, some the same as some decision makers I'd bet.

No need to be sorry Mike, it's just a short generalization of the feedback going on when it was asked for.

You make a good point about voting from the inside but alas I'm 38 and never voted even politically so likely to be just as lethargic here when it comes to finding out who's on the committee, who believes in what, which one to back etc....all too much for me it's time to prepare another meal.

[MasterTel]

As one of the current "decision makers", I've found most of the many comments and suggestions in this topic to be very insightful, constructive and positive!

As Mike has mentioned, many of us on the Exec are either still competing, or have competed very recently. That doesn't guarantee that we will make the right decisions, but it does make us more in tune with the thoughts and best interests of the people we represent - our members. We (or at least I do as an nzbodybuilding member) take on board comments made on this site!

It is true that we haven't had testing at any of our events since mid to late 2007. Without going into huge detail, we were presented with a new policy by NZSDA (to be universally applied to all sports in NZ who were signed to the old policy) which we recognised had some notable issues for our organisation and our members. Some of these have been mentioned in earlier posts. The policy was deemed to be non-negotiable i.e. could not be modified in any way to suit a particular code or organisation (i.e. bodybuilding/NZFBB).

We devised a new in-house policy (in line with the IFBB requirements and standard) which was voted in by our members at 2008 AGM. Having a new policy in place is one thing - but getting it implemented is another e.g. who will do the tests; who will administer the selection of candidates and oversee the handling of results; dealing with various legal aspects of sentencing and appeals etc. Also there is the considerable financial cost of doing our own testing (previously free of charge to us being signed to the NZSDA policy). Thankfully we are in a much better financial position now (approx $60K in the bank) so this was not a stumbling block as it would have been 18-24 months ago.

Ideally we would like to have a selection process that allows us the opportunity to have a non-tested class or group of classes. With our new policy, this is possible. Under the old policy (and the revised one that we did not sign), we had no say in the selection process, nor could we nominate a subset of competitors or members who were exempt from testing.

I am speaking for myself here, but I'm confident in saying that the Exec as a whole are united in our commitment to having testing in place. We are obliged to do so anyway - as an affilicated member of the IFBB (despite the fact that many or most other affiliated members appear to give mere "lip service" to their commitment to test their athletes!) We want to be as fair as possible to our members - we will never please everybody but we are determined with this issue as with all other aspects of NZFBB policy i.e. to implement and maintain the fairest and most feasible testing policy to satisfy the majority of our members ... even if that does take longer than we (or our members) would like.

Finally, it is worth reiterating (as others have several times on this site before) - we will NEVER create a level-playing field for our members to compete in a drug-free environment. Even if we tested every competitor in and out of contest, it wouldn't happen. Many competitors have "used" for several years in the past and are now "clean", while others become "clean" much later or not at all and either avoid a positive test by luck or being very clever with what they use and when they take it.

2009 is a year when all NZFBB Executive positions (including the President and Vice-President) are up for re-election. All of us currently on the Exec have to be nominated and re-apply for our positions, and it gives all other members an opportunity to also be nominated and possibly voted on the Executive. I have complete faith in all those currently on the Executive, but I also welcome those with energy, ideas and a positive attitude (like many members on this site) to consider applying this year! :nod:

[gazza]

great post MT, seems the ball might be rolling in the right(?) direction

[musclenz]

Well put MasterTel. I guess whether you agree or disagree with NZFBB Policy on testing, most people can sympathise with your dilemma in satisfying the requirements of a drug tested environment. To allow an Elite Class to operate under your umbrella only complicates your organisation , but it also compromises your overall policy on being a tested group. In the end, I expect this is why other affiliates like in Aust & the UK only "give lip service" to their testing policy & why top international competitors proceed through the ranks with little concern for the IFBB policy on drug testing & enforcement. I think we can agree that Performance Enhancing Drugs are here to stay, not only in BBing circles, but in many major & professional sports & their use is likely to increase. Perhaps then its best to work within the constraints that this places on your organisation & allow the weight classes, categories & judging to sort out the playing field.

[AllenNZ]

I too have been interested with the NZFBB drug testing as to what can be a fare way of having it introduced so both parties. My thoughts a for the ones that want to go to the World's they will need to be tested before going and if they fail the test than they have to pay for it. To make his work it would be good if they put a bond down which will cover the cost of a test and if its a pass the NZFBB can reimburse the athlete.

The NZFBB can look at having two entry forms with one for the Novice classes that you could be tested and one for the open classes that says its a non tested event.

With the entry forms for the novice class they would need to have a glause that if they fail a drug test its at there cost.

But for the age classes thats a had one as I know there are users and non users.

With the Elite Class it is run by a private promotor and is sanction by the IFBB and not the NZFBB and to my knowledge there are on pro cards up for grabs.

As for handing out pro cards his needs to be looked at eg the time they have been in bodybuilding, there conditioning over the years and there placings (as i have seen cards given out without it been discussed by the Judges and Executives)

Some quotes below i agree with that have been made:

On the subject that Mike D touched on, yes there are guys in all catorgories that use all sorts of goodies(legal and not) to lean out, but personally at an amateur level, your level of conditioning/leaness is the one thing that you can control and be on par with users with IMO. It just takes dedication and perhaps more time on your pre comp diet and training. Note, im not talking about pro level conditioning, just achieving a ripped physique with mid-low single figure bodyfat and getting your water dropped right. I think this can be done very effectively without drugs IMO.

By rigger: Natural athletes still return positive tests for a variety of silly things. It has happened a number of times and that is why the WADA testing plus a couple of other reasons ( lack of promised funding ) was chucked out. Yes lifetime drug free people ended up with positives. Middleaged women in their first year of competing who were trying to get back into shape and others who took supplements that at the time were not banned and while their test was sitting in the refridgerator ( for months ) awaiting testing were put on the banned list.

By bigmd: You would be suprised, just remember not all drugs are to get you massive, lots are to get you lean, or to get you under a weight class. when people talk drugs its always aimed at "the big guys" there are heaps of drugs used by the little guys and girls also to be freaky lean or to scrape in under the weight height restrictions. And to be honest these are the drugs which can very quickly give people some pretty nasty health issues.

( eg DIURETIC )

Allen S

NZFBB Supporter

[nate225]

Well put MasterTel.

Look foward to seeing some implementation.

Nate

[nicksmith3]

Bump*

[Grego]

To make his work it would be good if they put a bond down which will cover the cost of a test and if its a pass the NZFBB can reimburse the athlete.

Allen S

NZFBB Supporter

Hey Guys

I did the INBA Naturals in Taupo last year, and I had to sign a discalimer which stated that if I was tested positive that I would need to pay for the test, which from memory was in the vicinity of $650 - $750 That's not a bad way to go either.

For the record, I am not opening up a can of worms as to whether anyone is or isn't tested in that fed by the way, just letting others know if they didn't already about the disclaimer, that's all.

Cheers

Grego

[Optimass]

A final outcome seems to be dragging on still - I think the treaty of Waitangi took less time to agree on.

NZFBB Whats going on?

[musclenz]

Surely it is too late now in the year to make a ruling. This decision must be left open until next year & competitors should interpret that accordingly. This is the one chance that NZFBB has to be seen as the the major player in BBing in NZ & attract the top competitors to events. Those that then wish to compete at the Worlds must then conform to their testing criteria, or continue on into Australia, the US or Europe where a more relaxed approach is often accepted.

[OMCV6]

Why not conduct "inhouse drug testing"

You don't specifically have to test for AAS

Why not just test for recreational drugs such as...

Amphetamines, Cannabis or Alcohol

I'm confident that most competitors use very little in the way of recreational drugs, especially around contest time, and it is these recreational drugs that cause most of the violence and social problems in society anyway

Plus the bonus is that the test kits for recreational drugs are cheap as chips

so it will keep down the admin costs.

[nate225]

Why not conduct "inhouse drug testing"

You don't specifically have to test for AAS

Why not just test for recreational drugs such as...

Amphetamines, Cannabis or Alcohol

I'm confident that most competitors use very little in the way of recreational drugs, especially around contest time, and it is these recreational drugs that cause most of the violence and social problems in society anyway

Plus the bonus is that the test kits for recreational drugs are cheap as chips

so it will keep down the admin costs.

Why? Understand the H&S reasons for testing for performance impairing drugs in workplaces (or motorsports etc), but in Bodybuilding?! Might prevent athletes from falling over on stage or having red eyes in the photographs!! :pfft:

Testing in most sports is about identifying those who are breaking pre-determined rules regarding performance enhancing drugs (although for some bizzare reason Cannabinoids are included, which are acknowleged by most as performance impairing). An amphetamine screen as you suggested would cover one performance enhancing drug, however instant test kits dont distinguish between pseudoephedrine (not on WADA list) and amphetamines which are. They will also not stand up in court (as don't meet the new standard AS/NZS 4308: 2008) and I presume in the Sports Tribunal should an athlete contest a sanction resulting from such a test.

Have to agree with MuscleNZ on this one. Leave it til the new Exec is in place & get a rock solid policy in place (in whatever form NZFBB determines is required) and go from there.

Nate

[rigger]

There is a policy already in place at the moment. Just different to what it was.

[gazza]

There is a policy already in place at the moment. Just different to what it was.

which is??