Post workout carbs??

[Marcus]

I'm 92kg, bodyfat approaching 20%.

How much pwo carbs do you think I need? I currently take in about 35gms of simple carbs straight after a workout. Is this enough or am I selling myself short?

[Growth]

IMO thats about right, i would be taking in about 40g simple carbs and 40g protein for my PWO shake.

What about you others?

[Ash]

Marcus - is that your main PWO meal or is it a PWO carb drink that you have immediately after training?

I aim for roughly a 2:1 ratio of carbs to protein in my PWO shake. I get 50-60g of protein and chuck in a banana, 40g of dextrose and 50g of oats which is about 100g of carbs.

I think 40g of carbs would hardly touch sides for me.

[Marcus]

Thats my PWO carbs which I take with creatine & glutamine. I have about 40gms protein about 20mins later.

I might throw in a banana too.

Is it necessary to include low glycemic in this meal as well?

[Growth]

Isnt the idea here to use only high GI carbs?

Ash - do you really blend those oats hard? Ive always thought that a PWO shake should be liquids only, so that absorbtion occurs quickly?

[Ash]

Isnt the idea here to use only high GI carbs?

Ash - do you really blend those oats hard? Ive always thought that a PWO shake should be liquids only, so that absorbtion occurs quickly?

I give the oats and banana quite a hammering in the blender before I add the whey and dextrose. The oats are pretty much chopped to tiny pieces before I drink them. As far as I understand it, that will increase the rate of absorption but it's still not as quick as the dextrose or as slow as a solid meal.

[Growth]

Your right that it would increase the rate of absorbtion (blending them into tiny pieces)

I guess if you fully blend them then the only other issue is the GI of the oates.

[Pseudonym]

http://www.glycemicindex.com puts the GI of uncooked rolled oats at 59.

For reference, dextrose is about 100 and a banana is around 50.

(That surprised me, actually. A boiled Nardine potato comes in at 70.)

[hrdcor]

Marcus,based on the figures of 92kg and 20%Body fat you currently have around 73kg of lean mass, this would give you a baseil metabolic rate of 2250 cals per day(this BMI was worked out on you LM status and not your scale weight), this is idealy the amount of cals you should be consuming to you get your Body fat levels down ,because your current body fat levels are not conducive to optimal cellular growth due to hyperinsulinemia(ie the bodys ability to use insulin as a anabolic hormone due to insulin resistance).. you idealy would want to be around 12-10% Bf for a optimal anabolic state.

Based on the above I would reccomend only 25-50grms total carbs in you post work out meal, total carb intake should be around 100grms per day non training days and 150 grms on training days(the extra 50 coming in via the post workout intake)your protein requirements should be calculated at around 2-3 grms per kg of lean weight which have you ingesting around 150 to 200 grms of protein per day,divided equaly between 6 meals, the balance of your cals should be made up of fiberious vegetables and fats, with your last intake void of all carbs!!

A point of note you probibly will have a high rate of fluid retention at present which in part will be due to a higher estrogen ratio in your system, the higher the bodyfat levels the higher the production of estrogen!! Also I would suggest whilst in the process of bringing your BF down you use glutamine and HMB to act as a catbolic buffer to your lean mass base.

[Ash]

So hrdcor, what you're saying is:

1. The ideal body composition for gaining muscle is 10-12% bodyfat?

2. If someone isn't at that ideal BF%, they should cut until they are before trying to build muscle?

3. In order to maximize muscle gains, they need to maintain that ideal BF% at all times?

[hrdcor]

The average non active male sits between 12-20% BF, now it stands to reason a active individual whoms goal it is to be gaining lean mass shouldnt be at the higher end of a avg non active individual!

All varying states of the bodies compisistions are conducive to different reactions by the body, with a high body fat percentage(and i would class 20% high but not uncommon)the body is incapable of acheiving Maxium beneficial growth capablitys due to poor insulin utilisation, it is however better in this state at acheiving fat storage capablitys.

Common with this state is a slow but steady increase in scale weight but little or sometimes a drop in lean mass gain!! Which is not realy the goal the individual is usally after.

One should certantly try to aim at staying around that 12-10% BF if there goal is to gain lean muscle mass, remember the scale is not the indication of your progress, plus the more muscle you have on your frame the easier it is to stay in that 12-10% range so to get the muscle to stay there you need to be there.

I always kept an eye on this statistic when I was competting rather than my scale weight, and now I dont even have to keep an eye on it as i have enough lean mass on my frame that it would be a huge habit change for me to get above this mark !!

[Marcus]

Thanks for your input hrdcor, I think I'll get a bodyfat test done as I really have no idea exactly where I sit.

I train with weights 3 times a week & cardio at least 3 times a week so I'm fairly active.

At this stage I'm still gaining so I'm not sure if I would be too keen to attempt to shed more bodyfat. Not until late October anyway.

I will let you know my %

[frogie2001]

Marcus,based on the figures of 92kg and 20%Body fat you currently have around 73kg of lean mass, this would give you a baseil metabolic rate of 2250 cals per day(this BMI was worked out on you LM status and not your scale weight), this is idealy the amount of cals you should be consuming to you get your Body fat levels down ,because your current body fat levels are not conducive to optimal cellular growth due to hyperinsulinemia(ie the bodys ability to use insulin as a anabolic hormone due to insulin resistance).. you idealy would want to be around 12-10% Bf for a optimal anabolic state.

Based on the above I would reccomend only 25-50grms total carbs in you post work out meal, total carb intake should be around 100grms per day non training days and 150 grms on training days(the extra 50 coming in via the post workout intake)your protein requirements should be calculated at around 2-3 grms per kg of lean weight which have you ingesting around 150 to 200 grms of protein per day,divided equaly between 6 meals, the balance of your cals should be made up of fiberious vegetables and fats, with your last intake void of all carbs!!

A point of note you probibly will have a high rate of fluid retention at present which in part will be due to a higher estrogen ratio in your system, the higher the bodyfat levels the higher the production of estrogen!! Also I would suggest whilst in the process of bringing your BF down you use glutamine and HMB to act as a catbolic buffer to your lean mass base.

Definately agree with this. you are pissing the protein away. I'm about teh same lean mass. I have about 20-25 gm of protein and an apple to get the sucrose into the system. I thought that oats would provide a low release so for my time table of meals would pile the carbs right up as I have a dinner about an hour later. Just need something to power the protein absorption post work out.

[Marcus]

At the end of the day I'm eating what feels right. I want to keep growing so I'm piling down the food.

So hrdcor, I realise you have been training for a fair few years. Early on, did you keep you BF at 10-15%?

The point I'm making is if I was your size I'd be keeping my BF at 10% too. But I'm still way under your level, trying to get there.

[frogie2001]

At the end of the day I'm eating what feels right. I want to keep growing so I'm piling down the food.

So hrdcor, I realise you have been training for a fair few years. Early on, did you keep you BF at 10-15%?

The point I'm making is if I was your size I'd be keeping my BF at 10% too. But I'm still way under your level, trying to get there.

hey hard core!. how big are you anyways? have you posted any pics on here before?

[hrdcor]

Oh Im big at least 10 3/4 inches according to my ruler !!!

[hrdcor]

Sorry marcus , should have replied to you first, when I started i was naturaly a skinny guy, somewhere around 60kg at 5"5 and I have always stayed lean, which is why every year I managed to to improve , I did my first show after only 6 months of training and my leanness enabled me to win,so very early on although I didnt realy understand it much i knew beeing lean was important.

But the advise i have given is not based on my experiance ( well in part it is ) but based on the facts on how the body works , and to keep it simple most top athletes I know in this sport do not go above around 12% BF as they all know it would be counter productive.

[Marcus]

Thanks for the advice.

I'll try to get a bodyfat assessment this weekend.

At this stage I feel as though I'm still making good gains, so I'll keep going as I am until October. Then make a serious effort to get lean.

Thanks again.

[hrdcor]

your welcome buddy !