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Who has had success with tapering-off ..?


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Did it work for you?  Was there a noticable difference (if applicable) to the previous post-cycle recovery on 'classic clomid/nolva PCT', and how long did you taper off (ie. to what last dose?).

 

I assume anything less than a final (week) shot of 70mg of T-enanthate is futile, as this just about covers average natural weekly T production...

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15 hours ago, Wooster said:

Did it work for you?  Was there a noticable difference (if applicable) to the previous post-cycle recovery on 'classic clomid/nolva PCT', and how long did you taper off (ie. to what last dose?).

 

I assume anything less than a final (week) shot of 70mg of T-enanthate is futile, as this just about covers average natural weekly T production...

 

To PCT or not to PCT:


1) typical recovery issues from use of AAS

- primary hypogonadism (hypergonadotrophic hypogonadism) ---> LH/FSH = high, test = low, sperm quality = low
- secondary hypogonadism (hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism) ---> LH/FSH = low, test = low, sperm quantity = low
- partially (or fully) both forms ---> probably typical for majority of guys to lesser or greater degree


2) typical traditional PCTs recommended online

- hcg (during, after)
- SERMS (after)
- aromatase inhibitor (lower background oestrogen)


3) standard theory of PCTs

- maintain testes size with LH mimetic (hcg) = 'protective' (but how? what proof?)
- greatly elevated LH = faster gonad recovery (yet natural LH recovers rapidly - how high is healthy and is it really 'faster'?)
- hCG 'sensitises' testes for restored natural LH pulse (is there actually any proof for this assertion?)
- lowering oestrogen = reduce negative feedback (oestrogen longer half-life = high relative levels post-cycle)


4) population studies and case studies showing failure to recover

- several already posted and discussed, summarise/copy-paste
- case studies (eg https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21575947; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21682835)
- HCG maintains size, does not necessarily increase testosterone (ie leydig cell number)(via here)
- hcg fails completely (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1022657)
- hcg may hinder long-term recovery (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2360778)
- SERM-induced LH increase = temporary bandaid - transient and not actual 'recovery'
- most SERM and hCG studies performed on NORMAL people with hypogonadism not AAS users who have damaged HPG axis cycling supraphysiological levels of hormones


5) probable reasons why treatments fail

- negative feedback probably not the cause of most chronic recovery failures - therefore treatments designed to treat that are missing the point
- LH/FSH recover very quickly post-cycle anyway
- hCG long half-life = bleed; natural GnRH, LH/FSH = pulsatile
- damage to testes from AAS or metabolites/oestrogen
- damage to pituitary from AAS or metabolites/oestrogen
- damage to hypothalamus from AAS or metabolites/oestrogen


6) possible mechanisms to limit damage

- low dose cycling/tapering (law of diminishing returns)
- aromatase inhibitor with potently aromatising compounds to control damaging estradiol metabolites
- reduce reliance on potentially more harmful compounds (eg dbol = more potent and harmful metabolic oestrogens; deca stays in system for months, etc)
- utilise shorter duration cycles
- avoid blast n cruise unless competing/great genetics - be patient! bodybuilding = lifestyle not race.
- supplements to attenuate oxidative harms on cycle (various studies in animals = best we've got; theory = sound)
- potential for triptorelin in secondary HG, possibly others like lowering prolactin (indicates injured hypothalamus) with pramipexole etc. May not 'heal' damage caused on cycle though, any more than clomid does.


7) take home messages/conclusions

- SERMs & HCG may help some feel better but others worse, unlikely to promote long-term recovery - moreso bandaid
- therefore PCT is no guarantee of recovery and must be presented and admitted as such (too much convenient dishonesty)
- however, feel free to try PCT and use blood tests but to repeat also:
- (a) consider lower dosed cycles and realistic maintainable gains
- (b) consider use of supplements to potentially attenuate harms

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Everyone I know who has done pct including hcg has recovered better those times than the times they didn’t.

 

Basically you can find a study out there to support any claim.

 

Has the whole bbing world been doing it wrong for all these decades. Because it has seemed to work for the majority just fine?

 

 

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11 hours ago, Realtalk said:

Everyone I know who has done pct including hcg has recovered better those times than the times they didn’t.

 

Basically you can find a study out there to support any claim.

 

Has the whole bbing world been doing it wrong for all these decades. Because it has seemed to work for the majority just fine?

 

 

 

The argument is that you could just have recovered fine without PCT, but by taking it you believe it worked.!!

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Well there are also a plethora of studies to show that the placebo affect is real and is one of the most consistent and powerful overall treatments in medicine.  Regardless of what you think of placebo that it’s a load of shit or you believe in it, without taking it it’s impossible to know. 

 

Also if someone did the standard pct and it worked. Would mean they didn’t do the taper protocol which is what you are promoting, does that mean tapering doesn’t work? 

 

Because they didn’t do tapering method and they still recovered fine without it.

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