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(Intro&) Advice on avoiding ROS testes damage on Test-E


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Hi fellas, lasses

 

I'm new on here as I have had enough of the U.S.A sponsored B.B forums... they all seem to be geared (no pun intended) to selling you something in the end.

 

I've trained seriously for 5 years now (with a good 1 year break in the middle of it during early fatherhood, that was hell on my physique & energy levels...).

Went from 81->89kg on pretty much same BF%age (12%)

 

My background is in biology (I sell food & pharma ingredients for a living - antioxidants, enzymes, polymers/coatings for pharma..) and although I'm familiar with the nature of (some) AAS substances, I have no 1st hand knowledge as have not (yet) used. Theory is only a small part of it, I reckon.

 

My 1st cycle is (starting) to look like this:

 

9 Weeks total

300mg /wk (2 x 150mg injects per week) TEST-enanthate

Aromasin (exemestane)  0.5mg /EoD 

Possibly ANAVAR  (I have some pharma grade I 'sourced'...) 30mg ED for 6 of the 9 weeks -> my reasoning here is that I want to increase collagen to combat a history of elbow tendon issues. Oxandrolone has a fairly strong collagen-synthesis action & I figure that the sudden increase in muscluar-strength will be much faster than any tendon/ligament adaptation.

 

What kind of Aromasin dose might be usefull to combat aromatisation, hence limiting oxidative damage of the testes?      -----> Other items i'm considering to this end:   Magnesium(bisglycinate - easy to digest and well absorbed), Zinc(piccolinate, also absorbed well), Selenium, ample amounts of EPA Fish oil (Vit.E)  .....

 

I'm considering keeping Clomiphene on hand if I have issues recovering, though seen as FSH/LH restart is mostly dependant on the state of your testes I'm not keen on the classic Nolva/Clomid/HCG claptrap routine i've been told by the Bro-science crowd.

Tapering off seems a popular method amoungst the guys I know from work (there are a few juicers in our company lab :-)

 

 

Cheers for any advice or helpfull insight.

 

Kind rgds,
W.

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On 20/03/2019 at 2:46 AM, Wooster said:

Hi fellas, lasses

 

I'm new on here as I have had enough of the U.S.A sponsored B.B forums... they all seem to be geared (no pun intended) to selling you something in the end.

 

I've trained seriously for 5 years now (with a good 1 year break in the middle of it during early fatherhood, that was hell on my physique & energy levels...).

Went from 81->89kg on pretty much same BF%age (12%)

 

My background is in biology (I sell food & pharma ingredients for a living - antioxidants, enzymes, polymers/coatings for pharma..) and although I'm familiar with the nature of (some) AAS substances, I have no 1st hand knowledge as have not (yet) used. Theory is only a small part of it, I reckon.

 

My 1st cycle is (starting) to look like this:

 

9 Weeks total

300mg /wk (2 x 150mg injects per week) TEST-enanthate

Aromasin (exemestane)  0.5mg /EoD 

Possibly ANAVAR  (I have some pharma grade I 'sourced'...) 30mg ED for 6 of the 9 weeks -> my reasoning here is that I want to increase collagen to combat a history of elbow tendon issues. Oxandrolone has a fairly strong collagen-synthesis action & I figure that the sudden increase in muscular-strength will be much faster than any tendon/ligament adaptation.

 

What kind of Aromasin dose might be useful to combat aromatisation, hence limiting oxidative damage of the testes?      -----> Other items i'm considering to this end:   Magnesium(bisglycinate - easy to digest and well absorbed), Zinc(picolinate, also absorbed well), Selenium, ample amounts of EPA Fish oil (Vit.E)  .....

 

I'm considering keeping Clomiphene on hand if I have issues recovering, though seen as FSH/LH restart is mostly dependant on the state of your testes I'm not keen on the classic Nolva/Clomid/HCG claptrap routine i've been told by the Bro-science crowd.

Tapering off seems a popular method amongst the guys I know from work (there are a few juicers in our company lab :-)

 

 

Cheers for any advice or helpfull insight.

 

Kind rgds,
W.

 

Hi There.. Regards collagen synthesis you might be better off incorporating bone broth & collagen (from Countdown) into your diet as opposed to contemplating anavar, as research suggests it stimulates growth of the wrong type of collagen, which might increase healing times but leaves tendons brittle and more prone to rupture over the longer term. I had this confirmed from my orthopedic surgeon at Waikato Hospital.. 

 

Aromasin is a pretty potent AI, you don't want to limit estrogen too much as it is essential for growth and mood on-cycle..

At 300mg/week I wouldn't worry about knocking out estrogen, but look at negating sertoli and leydig cell damage from ROS via supplementation of Taurine 3-5g/day and Royal jelly 1g/day.. (I've posted studys on both here somewhere)..

Where I might suggest aromasin low dose might be in the last week or so end of cycle as you taper off, to avoid estrogen dominance as testosterone lowers..

 

Interesting avatar, whats the link.?

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Hi Daz,

 

So you don't think 300mg a week of test merits the anti-e exemestane dose, every other day or even E3D ? Better safe than sorry... once the testes are fried there is a much harder road to recovery ost cycle, I'm assuming

 

I'm concerned about the aromatisation & ensuing oxidation effect on the testes cells - 300mg/wk is 6.5x my natural production of test (I had total, free T tested) - surely some aromatization is inevitable, no ?

 

Interesting that you say Anavar would have the effect of leaving tendons brittle - my understanding from the studies was that Winstrol would have this effect but compounds like var and EQ actually speed up natural collagen & bone synthesis and leave the collagen tissue stronger and more resistant than before (granted, the Oxandrolone study was done on burn victims, mainly)

 

Not convinced by the bone broth and dietry collagen (basically just poor protein) evidence, doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny.

 

How about phytonutrients like proanthocyanidins and quercetin, also leucine rich protein sources for collagen health?

 

 

The link: I have a (very) Latin Roman first name, and the nose to go with it... hence the Legion avatar.

 

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Hi Wooster, science and med labels will tell you one thing but YOUR personal  experience could show another, as I’m sure your aware. 

Lots of people react in different ways to different compounds. 

I personally am very estro sensitive and this has got worst with age, if I use test or any aromatising compound at any dose I need an AI if I ran 300mg test a week without AI I would be a water buffalo with DD boobies. I can normally feel a little itchy irritation in the nipples at about the 4th or 5th day if I don’t use AI or some kind of anti e. 

 

Guess you  will just have to start out with the test and see how you go first, then if you see you need it add it at the lowest dose and work your way up to the most effective dose for YOU!  

Horses for courses, everyone is different.  

Good luck mate. 

Hope it all goes well for you. 👍

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Ok cheers, New pome. 

Guess it's always something of a leap into the unknown (and a bit of a lottery) when you introduce an exogenous amount of hormone(s) into your body. Bit similar to the pill for women... seen ex-gf's react in all sorts of different ways to it, good & bad.

 

I'm quite set on the dosage, as 300mg/wk of test-e (guess about 85% of that is actual testosterone, as in minus the ester) as this is way over (about 6x) my current 6-7mg/day natural production. I have a reliable sports doc who does & will do my blood work, which is a big bonus I figure.

 

Q. for you - what are the first signs of aromatisation, ie. increased E during your cycle?

You mention the itchy nipples. I assume bloat (as E causes subcutaneous water retention) and perhaps a sudden urge to watch Home And Away reruns ...??  :-D

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Wooster said:

Ok cheers, New pome. 

Guess it's always something of a leap into the unknown (and a bit of a lottery) when you introduce an exogenous amount of hormone(s) into your body. Bit similar to the pill for women... seen ex-gf's react in all sorts of different ways to it, good & bad.

 

I'm quite set on the dosage, as 300mg/wk of test-e (guess about 85% of that is actual testosterone, as in minus the ester) as this is way over (about 6x) my current 6-7mg/day natural production. I have a reliable sports doc who does & will do my blood work, which is a big bonus I figure.

 

Q. for you - what are the first signs of aromatisation, ie. increased E during your cycle?

You mention the itchy nipples. I assume bloat (as E causes subcutaneous water retention) and perhaps a sudden urge to watch Home And Away reruns ...??  :-D

 

 

 

 

Enanthate is around 65.4mg of actual hormone/100mg..

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On 21/03/2019 at 3:58 AM, Wooster said:

Hi Daz,

 

So you don't think 300mg a week of test merits the anti-e exemestane dose, every other day or even E3D ? Better safe than sorry... once the testes are fried there is a much harder road to recovery ost cycle, I'm assuming

 

I'm concerned about the aromatisation & ensuing oxidation effect on the testes cells - 300mg/wk is 6.5x my natural production of test (I had total, free T tested) - surely some aromatization is inevitable, no ?

 

 

 

As previously stated estrogen on cycle can be a very personal thing dependant upon a plethora of factors, although remember some estrogen is needed for growth, unfortunately this can leave you exposed to issues with free radicals.

Think of aromatase as a polluting, free-radical generating 'factory', taking in testosterone, hydroxylating it multiple times and oxidating off methyl groups as carboxylic acids (eg formate), in the production of oestrogens/oestradiol. If concentrations of aromatase and testosterone rise in tandem beyond physiological norms, the stage is set for free-radical generation that can rapidly overload innate anti-oxidative mechanisms (GSH etc), causing apoptosis of neighbouring cells and ultimately inflammation that can then aggravate the whole situation in a vicious positive-feedback cycle. Also bear in mind that oestrogens churned out and subsequently metabolised can themselves become problematic eg catechol oestrogens, while even 17-B-oestradiol has been shown to be innately toxic, genotoxic and carcinogenic in certain situations/organs, largely via free-radical generating behaviour/activation.

However, since most men suffer from longer-term effects and a failure to fully recover after various cycles of AAS, some worse than others, this is generally regarded as proof that the AAS themselves - rather than merely the decline in LH/FSH levels as a result of that negative feedback and shrinkage of the testes - cause long-term harm to cells in the testes, and probably the hypothalamus and pituitary as well.

And there is weak evidence for transiently elevated LH/FSH from SERMs undoing that damage. Most will enjoy a temporary boost to test levels, only to see them decline back to a lower baseline once off. In fact, you could speculate their use and the transient boost to test may actually hamper underlying recovery, since most SERMs diminish growth hormone levels, and there is a mechanism via elevated GH and local IGF-1 for the recovery of leydig cell number and density in testes.

 

Some of the known harms from AAS cycles include direct oxidative damage to various cells in the testes and brain. And there is some experimental evidence that various free radical scavengers can attenuate these oxidative harms or balance natural recuperative systems. So in terms of cost/benefit it's likely very worthwhile to take some additional supplements on cycle that may help, like taurine, NAC, astragalus, raw cacao, royal jelly, bioavailable curcumin, etc. 

Whether you wish to approach the oxidative issue via an AI as well as supplementation is up to you, but there is evidence that combinations of the above supplements do work..

 

 

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On 22/03/2019 at 6:12 AM, Daz69 said:

 

As previously stated estrogen on cycle can be a very personal thing dependant upon a plethora of factors, although remember some estrogen is needed for growth, unfortunately this can leave you exposed to issues with free radicals.

Think of aromatase as a polluting, free-radical generating 'factory', taking in testosterone, hydroxylating it multiple times and oxidating off methyl groups as carboxylic acids (eg formate), in the production of oestrogens/oestradiol. If concentrations of aromatase and testosterone rise in tandem beyond physiological norms, the stage is set for free-radical generation that can rapidly overload innate anti-oxidative mechanisms (GSH etc), causing apoptosis of neighbouring cells and ultimately inflammation that can then aggravate the whole situation in a vicious positive-feedback cycle. Also bear in mind that oestrogens churned out and subsequently metabolised can themselves become problematic eg catechol oestrogens, while even 17-B-oestradiol has been shown to be innately toxic, genotoxic and carcinogenic in certain situations/organs, largely via free-radical generating behaviour/activation.

However, since most men suffer from longer-term effects and a failure to fully recover after various cycles of AAS, some worse than others, this is generally regarded as proof that the AAS themselves - rather than merely the decline in LH/FSH levels as a result of that negative feedback and shrinkage of the testes - cause long-term harm to cells in the testes, and probably the hypothalamus and pituitary as well.

And there is weak evidence for transiently elevated LH/FSH from SERMs undoing that damage. Most will enjoy a temporary boost to test levels, only to see them decline back to a lower baseline once off. In fact, you could speculate their use and the transient boost to test may actually hamper underlying recovery, since most SERMs diminish growth hormone levels, and there is a mechanism via elevated GH and local IGF-1 for the recovery of leydig cell number and density in testes.

 

Some of the known harms from AAS cycles include direct oxidative damage to various cells in the testes and brain. And there is some experimental evidence that various free radical scavengers can attenuate these oxidative harms or balance natural recuperative systems. So in terms of cost/benefit it's likely very worthwhile to take some additional supplements on cycle that may help, like taurine, NAC, astragalus, raw cacao, royal jelly, bioavailable curcumin, etc. 

Whether you wish to approach the oxidative issue via an AI as well as supplementation is up to you, but there is evidence that combinations of the above supplements do work..

 

 

Great insights, thx for taking the time to explain this mechanism, Daz

 

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Also remember a mobile phone in your pocket can cause similar damage to leydig and sertoli cells via low frequency EMF exposure activating voltage gated calcium channels, creating reactive oxygen and also more dangerous reactive nitrogens..

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7 hours ago, Daz69 said:

Also remember a mobile phone in your pocket can cause similar damage to leydig and sertoli cells via low frequency EMF exposure activating voltage gated calcium channels, creating reactive oxygen and also more dangerous reactive nitrogens..

I hardly ever put the phone in my pockets. Am not a smart-phone fan by any means !

 

Interested in  tapering-off and by what mechanism this would be easier on the system to restart LH/FSH , have you posted any info on this before? I'll check on the search function...

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15 hours ago, Wooster said:

I hardly ever put the phone in my pockets. Am not a smart-phone fan by any means !

 

Interested in  tapering-off and by what mechanism this would be easier on the system to restart LH/FSH , have you posted any info on this before? I'll check on the search function...

 

Any method that provides minimal oxidative stress throughout the cycle, should make successful recovery possible, either by supplementation on cycle and or very low dose AI on cycle, or as you taper off..

 

100mg (which in reality is only 65mg of actual hormone) in the last 2 weeks then off, should work just fine, as blood testosterone will lower, as residual test already in blood half lifes over the next couple of weeks..

 

Nolva clomid only gained popularity on some steroid boards due to dealers  needing to make a profit out of time off, which was the old school methodology ie: 3 months on 3 months off..

 

No amount of mimicking LH, or stimulating GnRH will work over the longer term if sertoli or leydig cells are dead, or  present in significantly reduced number..

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If these dealers needed to make a profit out of time off and were finding themselves short of money without nolva, Clomid, hcg etc. They would have just made the steroids more expensive. That would be easier and more logical than wasting time trying to trick people on the internet. 

 

Profit on nolvadex and Clomid in USA, Europe, Asia is next to nothing. Would be pointless even selling it.

 

So I don’t think that hypothesis is right mate.

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Yes,  clomid hcg nolva and fsh are all available over the counter in a lot of places in Europe and they are super cheap. 

Again personal preference, I’m old now and definitely do not recover without pct I always use clomid, proviron, hcg and tamoxifen that’s what I was told to use by my doc in Spain many years ago and it’s always worked. 

I know you guys don’t use hcg in Newzealand (it the only country I’ve live in that doesn’t use hcg for pct and I’ve lived in a fair few places) 

If I don’t use hcg in my pct my balls do not come back to size and stay shriveled.  

 

But that’s me and how my body works pct is a must for me if I taper off my test slowly drops really low and my estro sky rockets making me fat and loose muscle so I welcome those dealers without them and there pct drugs I would have to stay on a trt dose year round. 

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23 hours ago, Realtalk said:

If these dealers needed to make a profit out of time off and were finding themselves short of money without nolva, Clomid, hcg etc. They would have just made the steroids more expensive. That would be easier and more logical than wasting time trying to trick people on the internet. 

 

Profit on nolvadex and Clomid in USA, Europe, Asia is next to nothing. Would be pointless even selling it.

 

So I don’t think that hypothesis is right mate.

 

Remember I've been involved for the last 38 years, that's how it used to be back home  in the 70's - 90's, 3 months on hormones, 3 months off on SERM's... Until blast cruise methodology surfaced..

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