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Notabodybuilder

low test. and HRT

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2 hours ago, Notabodybuilder said:

Cool, i think that suggests it is something that will be fairly straightforward to fix with TRT? I guess it makes sense too if I only have one testicle, half the neccessary cells. But may only be becoming a problem now that I am getting older (49)

 

I have a couple of questions re patches Daz69.

 

Does one still possibly reach a point where endogenous production of T shuts down before your exogenous supply is up to a good level, thereby having a bit (or a lot) of a slump?

Also with patches is it still important to monitor E2 levels to check they are not going up, or is that not such an issue since it the doses are closer to endogenous production?

I noticed you said here and on another thread patches are the closest to replicating endogenous production, so really hope they are an option for me. As far as I can tell their only common drawback seems to be skin irritation.

 

Thanks for your feedback :-)

 

 

 

Does one still possibly reach a point where endogenous production of T shuts down before your exogenous supply is up to a good level, thereby having a bit (or a lot) of a slump?  Not something you should be worried about, exogenous levels should elevate to appreciable amount within hours..

 

Also with patches is it still important to monitor E2 levels to check they are not going up, or is that not such an issue since it the doses are closer to endogenous production?  Initially yes, until correct dose is established for your own individual physiology, but shouldn't be an issue with physiological dose..

 

  

 

 

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3 hours ago, Daz69 said:

 

Does one still possibly reach a point where endogenous production of T shuts down before your exogenous supply is up to a good level, thereby having a bit (or a lot) of a slump?  Not something you should be worried about, exogenous levels should elevate to appreciable amount within hours..

 

Also with patches is it still important to monitor E2 levels to check they are not going up, or is that not such an issue since it the doses are closer to endogenous production?  Initially yes, until correct dose is established for your own individual physiology, but shouldn't be an issue with physiological dose..

 

  

 

 

Good to know, thanks for your reply, will keep you all posted to know how I get on. :-)

 

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On 1/27/2018 at 5:47 PM, Daz69 said:

 

Does one still possibly reach a point where endogenous production of T shuts down before your exogenous supply is up to a good level, thereby having a bit (or a lot) of a slump?  Not something you should be worried about, exogenous levels should elevate to appreciable amount within hours..

 

Also with patches is it still important to monitor E2 levels to check they are not going up, or is that not such an issue since it the doses are closer to endogenous production?  Initially yes, until correct dose is established for your own individual physiology, but shouldn't be an issue with physiological dose..

 

  

 

 

Does one still possibly reach a point where endogenous production of T shuts down before your exogenous supply is up to a good level, thereby having a bit (or a lot) of a slump?

 

This happened to me with Reandron, and at first the Doc thought it means I don't need TRT lol.. I guess with quicker acting forms it should be fine (patches etc)

 

After my first Reandron shot, about 3 days later I crashed, hard.. I suspect endogenous had shut down and unfortunately Reandron takes time to build up - I never felt so shit before, couldn't stay awake at all at work, just felt so tired and it lasted for 6 weeks. At the 6 week mark I got my 2nd shot, this is where things changed and I started to feel much better and from there it was all good - but for the first 6 weeks I did feel worse than before starting - but this tends to get supported by the studies I've briefly seen

 

I guess it's going to come down to what your levels were before vs the level you get with that first Reandron shot

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1 hour ago, Detonate said:

Does one still possibly reach a point where endogenous production of T shuts down before your exogenous supply is up to a good level, thereby having a bit (or a lot) of a slump?

 

This happened to me with Reandron, and at first the Doc thought it means I don't need TRT lol.. I guess with quicker acting forms it should be fine (patches etc)

 

After my first Reandron shot, about 3 days later I crashed, hard.. I suspect endogenous had shut down and unfortunately Reandron takes time to build up - I never felt so shit before, couldn't stay awake at all at work, just felt so tired and it lasted for 6 weeks. At the 6 week mark I got my 2nd shot, this is where things changed and I started to feel much better and from there it was all good - but for the first 6 weeks I did feel worse than before starting - but this tends to get supported by the studies I've briefly seen

 

I guess it's going to come down to what your levels were before vs the level you get with that first Reandron shot

Hi Detonate, thanks for your feedback. Is Reandron the injection that supposedly lasts longer than all the others? Doesn't it suck to have these issues where you seem to have to feel  worse before you get better.  Was your GP monitoring your T levels over that time?

Oh well it will be good to be seeing the endo. with a bit more knowledge up my sleeve.

I'm almost up to a year of feeling like absolute shit and in chronic pain, seems to be some sort of chronic fatigue/fibromyalgia and now the GP has put me on some anti-fungals to fight a yeast infection that is being really stubborn, so I'm really angling for an approach that isn't going to make me feel worse to start off with. Like I've said before, I'm realistic enough to be not expecting a miracle cure, but I'm hoping that boosting my low test. levels will at least start me on the road to recovery.

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1 hour ago, Notabodybuilder said:

Hi Detonate, thanks for your feedback. Is Reandron the injection that supposedly lasts longer than all the others? Doesn't it suck to have these issues where you seem to have to feel  worse before you get better.  Was your GP monitoring your T levels over that time?

Oh well it will be good to be seeing the endo. with a bit more knowledge up my sleeve.

I'm almost up to a year of feeling like absolute shit and in chronic pain, seems to be some sort of chronic fatigue/fibromyalgia and now the GP has put me on some anti-fungals to fight a yeast infection that is being really stubborn, so I'm really angling for an approach that isn't going to make me feel worse to start off with. Like I've said before, I'm realistic enough to be not expecting a miracle cure, but I'm hoping that boosting my low test. levels will at least start me on the road to recovery.

 

Yeah Reandron is advertised as an injection you get once every 12 weeks (longest lasting I think, except maybe the testosterone pellets last longer unsure if you can get them in NZ)

 

Yeah we monitored the results - 5 weeks after my first reandron injection my T levels were lower than before the injection lol.. its very important with reandron that you get the 2nd injection at the 6 week mark or earlier - after that its supposed to be once every 12 weeks but the doc told me that most of his patients did it every 10 weeks but he was prepared to take it down to 8 weeks if required which I tried but that was slightly too much so I decreased the frequency to every 10 weeks

 

I think the other options won't have this issue although I've not read any studies on them - but most other injections and also patches etc the T gets into the blood very quickly. Reandron is in castor oil and injected into the muscle where it takes a long time to break down and be absorbed into the blood

 

I only have one issue with reandron now - the injection itself, its hurts each and every time and that won't change because castor oil is thick and its 4ml that goes in, which is a lot for an injection
 

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19 minutes ago, Detonate said:

 

Yeah Reandron is advertised as an injection you get once every 12 weeks (longest lasting I think, except maybe the testosterone pellets last longer unsure if you can get them in NZ)

 

Yeah we monitored the results - 5 weeks after my first reandron injection my T levels were lower than before the injection lol.. its very important with reandron that you get the 2nd injection at the 6 week mark or earlier - after that its supposed to be once every 12 weeks but the doc told me that most of his patients did it every 10 weeks but he was prepared to take it down to 8 weeks if required which I tried but that was slightly too much so I decreased the frequency to every 10 weeks

 

I think the other options won't have this issue although I've not read any studies on them - but most other injections and also patches etc the T gets into the blood very quickly. Reandron is in castor oil and injected into the muscle where it takes a long time to break down and be absorbed into the blood

 

I only have one issue with reandron now - the injection itself, its hurts each and every time and that won't change because castor oil is thick and its 4ml that goes in, which is a lot for an injection
 

That's all good to know. I've heard muscular injections heart, but it must be great only having to have an injection every ten weeks. I'm still thinking of going with patches, but I certainly hope to be able to look at injections as an option too. Will let you know how I get on.

Just out of interest, what made you think you had low T. and get tested for it?

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3 hours ago, Notabodybuilder said:

I've heard muscular injections heart,


They don't / shouldn't if done correctly, especially not in the Glutes (ass). Quad injections hurt like hell though. The first few times if the muscle hasn't been pinned often you get some post injection pain, just feels like you've bruised it or something is the easiest way I can think to describe it. But after a few shots it usually goes away.

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Hi guys, one more question if anyone can answer, it sounds like patches might be the quickest acting option, how long roughly would it take before I know if they are going to do anything for me, days? weeks? Would be good to have some idea. Thanks

 

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2 hours ago, Notabodybuilder said:

Hi guys, one more question if anyone can answer, it sounds like patches might be the quickest acting option, how long roughly would it take before I know if they are going to do anything for me, days? weeks? Would be good to have some idea. Thanks

 

 

Same day I would think, without reading the research I have on patches.. 

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20 hours ago, ratz99 said:


They don't / shouldn't if done correctly, especially not in the Glutes (ass). Quad injections hurt like hell though. The first few times if the muscle hasn't been pinned often you get some post injection pain, just feels like you've bruised it or something is the easiest way I can think to describe it. But after a few shots it usually goes away.

Partially true, unfortunately my very first reandron shot was done too close to the sciatic nerve - I had shooting pain down my leg for 3 days and couldn't sleep on my back for 2 nights - these were given by a nurse, I don't do them myself it seems too tricky due to the reccomended position

 

Haven't had any sciatic issues since, but still get some general leg pain for 1 day after each shot and the area where the fluid goes in becomes sensitive and the muscle tissue goes hard and lumpy for a few days

 

Part of this is because the shots are being given too fast I think, i read somewhere reandron should be delivered in around 60 seconds, but the nurses go for gold and do it in 2 or 3 seconds

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22 minutes ago, Detonate said:

Partially true, unfortunately my very first reandron shot was done too close to the sciatic nerve - I had shooting pain down my leg for 3 days and couldn't sleep on my back for 2 nights - these were given by a nurse, I don't do them myself it seems too tricky due to the reccomended position

 

Haven't had any sciatic issues since, but still get some general leg pain for 1 day after each shot and the area where the fluid goes in becomes sensitive and the muscle tissue goes hard and lumpy for a few days

 

Part of this is because the shots are being given too fast I think, i read somewhere reandron should be delivered in around 60 seconds, but the nurses go for gold and do it in 2 or 3 seconds

Ouch haha. Yeah bro I always over compensate and go quite far to the upper outer portion of the glute to well and truely avoid that nerve. Heard some horror stories of people hitting it and jumping and getting the needle stuck in the muscle and shit. 

I find heating the oil before hand, like sitting it in very hot water for a minute seems to help it go in. 

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7 hours ago, Detonate said:

Partially true, unfortunately my very first reandron shot was done too close to the sciatic nerve - I had shooting pain down my leg for 3 days and couldn't sleep on my back for 2 nights - these were given by a nurse, I don't do them myself it seems too tricky due to the recomended position

 

Haven't had any sciatic issues since, but still get some general leg pain for 1 day after each shot and the area where the fluid goes in becomes sensitive and the muscle tissue goes hard and lumpy for a few days

 

Part of this is because the shots are being given too fast I think, i read somewhere reandron should be delivered in around 60 seconds, but the nurses go for gold and do it in 2 or 3 seconds

 

Position and speed are pretty basic to get right, but some medical staff don't seem to appreciate the difference between water based and oil based injection speed..

I frequently have heated discussion with our medical trainers regards injection protocol, especially IM lateral thigh.. 

I think some people should have to inject themselves to fully understand correct protocol, reading from books, or practicing on manikins doesn't really cut it for experience..

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Ive gotten into trouble for having debates about injections as well. And for refusing nurses and requesting to do my own,also frowned upon. Reandron problems occur as well when they use a thick guage needle to draw AND inject with the same needle, this hurts like a mofo when they use a sawed off drain pipe to inject it plus they do it at speed. When i 'suggest' politely that a thicker guage need for drawing and a thinner one used 23g 1.5inch as an example then they get offended. Now after your ass has been used as a dart board and irrigation plumbing needles inserted they rush the shot. This also makes for leakage and of course that 4ml isnt all in there, good luck in getting them to test you and redo a shot, wont happen so if you didnt get it tough luck buster see you in 12 weeks. Can best believe that when i am back on ill be doing my own shots and sourcing my own product if they arent happy with it. I dont get angry quickly,im really old school gent type and level but after 1.5years now not as obliging anymore. As a patient you are right to ask for a better standard of care if you feel it isnt being met. Reasearch the techniques for administering your 'prescribed' method and that way you will know the right way and can request it. Daz has mentioned needle selection and sizes in a lot of threads

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So here is my update, after seeing endo. today, he seemed fairly good and sounded like he had some experience with test.

 

He wants to give me a three month trial on Sustanon, doing 250mg a month, but said if I wanted to do 125mg a fortnight. I think that means getting the nurse to just inject half the ampule, and keep the other half? I wonder if they will do that.

 

He didn't recommend patches as he reckons about 60% of people get irritation, and someone my size would need more than one patch.

 

After the second lot of 250mg he wants me to get my bloods done. He did say I shouldn't need to worry about Est. because that conversion happens in body fat, and I don't have any really. If I feel like the sustanon is doing some good he's happy to put me on Reardon after the three months.

 

So just waiting for the chemist to get some sustanon in tommorrow amd then it is an appointment with a big needle.

I have a feeling even with doing the injections fortnightly there will still be a bit of a rollercoaster, I hope not too bad though.

 

Interested if anyone has any thoughts?  I'm thinking those may be quite low doses, and also quite far apart, compared to others here, but I'm happy to start off slow. Does anyone know how long sustanon takes to have an effect? I'm hoping I'll have a reasonable idea in a month or two whether it will be worth sticking with.

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4 minutes ago, Notabodybuilder said:

So here is my update, after seeing endo. today, he seemed fairly good and sounded like he had some experience with test.

 

He wants to give me a three month trial on Sustanon, doing 250mg a month, but said if I wanted to do 125mg a fortnight. I think that means getting the nurse to just inject half the ampule, and keep the other half? I wonder if they will do that.

 

He didn't recommend patches as he reckons about 60% of people get irritation, and someone my size would need more than one patch.

 

After the second lot of 250mg he wants me to get my bloods done. He did say I shouldn't need to worry about Est. because that conversion happens in body fat, and I don't have any really. If I feel like the sustanon is doing some good he's happy to put me on Reardon after the three months.

 

So just waiting for the chemist to get some sustanon in tommorrow amd then it is an appointment with a big needle.

I have a feeling even with doing the injections fortnightly there will still be a bit of a rollercoaster, I hope not too bad though.

 

Interested if anyone has any thoughts?  I'm thinking those may be quite low doses, and also quite far apart, compared to others here, but I'm happy to start off slow. Does anyone know how long sustanon takes to have an effect? I'm hoping I'll have a reasonable idea in a month or two whether it will be worth sticking with.

 

You're unlikely to get more frequent than every 2 weeks unfortunately, unless you have some medical background and can put a good case forward for more frequent injections..

There is conversion in adipose tissue, so low bf% works in your favour, there is conversion in other tissues, especially testes that are prone to damage via R.O.S, so supplementation with taurine and royal jelly would be prudent to avoid further shutdown issues..

The shortest ester (propionate) has a half life of as little as 0.8 day, and detectable in blood after about 2 hours, so expect about 10-12mg in the first day..

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1 hour ago, Daz69 said:

 

You're unlikely to get more frequent than every 2 weeks unfortunately, unless you have some medical background and can put a good case forward for more frequent injections..

There is conversion in adipose tissue, so low bf% works in your favour, there is conversion in other tissues, especially testes that are prone to damage via R.O.S, so supplementation with taurine and royal jelly would be prudent to avoid further shutdown issues..

The shortest ester (propionate) has a half life of as little as 0.8 day, and detectable in blood after about 2 hours, so expect about 10-12mg in the first day..

Thanks for that Daz69, so overall this seems to be a reasonable approach for someone in my situation, and to initially work out if it is going to benefit me?

 

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On 1/31/2018 at 8:19 PM, Daz69 said:

 

Position and speed are pretty basic to get right, but some medical staff don't seem to appreciate the difference between water based and oil based injection speed..

I frequently have heated discussion with our medical trainers regards injection protocol, especially IM lateral thigh.. 

I think some people should have to inject themselves to fully understand correct protocol, reading from books, or practicing on manikins doesn't really cut it for experience..

They know its in a oil solution and I have mentioned to them about doing it slower but they keep insisting that they can inject it at the speed that they can given the resistance - which to me sounds like they just press as hard as they can on the syringe and if the liquid is coming out then it means they are doing it right, lol

 

is there a better way I need to phrase my response to them?

 

I will use the tip to heat it up, will be especially useful in winter months - keep it near the groin for a few minutes prior or under warm water - but need to be careful as the package clearly says not to store it over 30 degrees

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4 hours ago, Detonate said:

keep it near the groin for a few minutes prior or under warm water - but need to be careful as the package clearly says not to store it over 30 degrees


I regularly boil water then take it up stairs and sit a vial in it so its up to about half way for about a minute. Doesn't do any harm. Id say prolonged exposure would ? Wouldn't know though 

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Oh well, that seemed to go pretty well, she seemed to know what she was doing and I have to say, didn't really feel a thing. Roll on two weeks time.

She also said she is always happy to hear others opinions on things which was good to know.

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4 hours ago, Detonate said:

They know its in a oil solution and I have mentioned to them about doing it slower but they keep insisting that they can inject it at the speed that they can given the resistance - which to me sounds like they just press as hard as they can on the syringe and if the liquid is coming out then it means they are doing it right, lol

 

is there a better way I need to phrase my response to them?

 

I will use the tip to heat it up, will be especially useful in winter months - keep it near the groin for a few minutes prior or under warm water - but need to be careful as the package clearly says not to store it over 30 degrees

 

Inform them you are in pain from the injection site and to reduce speed, to a rate of at least 1ml every 10 seconds, but no less, preferably longer, as it is oil based not water and takes time to absorb into the interstitial space without damaging surrounding tissue..

Or you could state you are in pain due to their incompetence, as you are paying them for their service, instruct them to administer slower or not at all..

 

Don't worry about short duration warming of product, it will ease the transition from syringe into skeletal muscle, the guidelines on temperature were meant for long term storage (weeks, months)....

 

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3 minutes ago, Daz69 said:

 

Inform them you are in pain from the injection site and to reduce speed, to a rate of at least 1ml every 10 seconds, but no less, preferably longer, as it is oil based not water and takes time to absorb into the interstitial space without damaging surrounding tissue..

Or you could state you are in pain due to their incompetence, as you are paying them for their service, instruct them to administer slower or not at all..

 

Don't worry about short duration warming of product, it will ease the transition from syringe into skeletal muscle, the guidelines on temperature were meant for long term storage (weeks, months)....

 

Hey there Daz69, just wondering what you think of the dose the endo. has put me on to start with? (125 sustanon every fortnight).

I must also say I'm feeling quite lucky, seem to have some good nurses at our local medical centre, maybe because they're from the UK and experienced.  Hardly felt a thing.

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1 hour ago, Notabodybuilder said:

Hey there Daz69, just wondering what you think of the dose the endo. has put me on to start with? (125 sustanon every fortnight).

I must also say I'm feeling quite lucky, seem to have some good nurses at our local medical centre, maybe because they're from the UK and experienced.  Hardly felt a thing.

 

Obviously its better than once a month, see how you feel when previous plasma amounts combine with current dose after about 4 injections.. (what I mean is: there will be some residual testosterone from previous injections that will add up over several injections, leading to higher blood concentrations)..

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Hi there guys, just one more question. Just wondering if the sustanon injection can make one feel worse at first. Been feeling pretty crap the last couple of days- tired and sore (kind of like I've got the flu) all over and burning and itching sensations (more than usual). May also be the anti-fungal medication I have been on (lamisil 250mg) which I am thinking of stopping for now. Been on it for two weeks and no sign of my thrush clearing up. Will have a chat to the chemist tomorrow about potential interactions. I'm also on effexor 225mg which I will leave alone for now.

Just wondering if it is common for the injection to cause a bit of a slump before things start improving. And if potential side-effects clear up in time.  Also wondering when natural production of test. starts reducing, is it at the first sign of exogenous test, ie would I already be starting to produce less natural test, or does that process take a while to kick in. Thanks.

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40 minutes ago, Notabodybuilder said:

Hi there guys, just one more question. Just wondering if the sustanon injection can make one feel worse at first. Been feeling pretty crap the last couple of days- tired and sore (kind of like I've got the flu) all over and burning and itching sensations (more than usual). May also be the anti-fungal medication I have been on (lamisil 250mg) which I am thinking of stopping for now. Been on it for two weeks and no sign of my thrush clearing up. Will have a chat to the chemist tomorrow about potential interactions. I'm also on effexor 225mg which I will leave alone for now.

Just wondering if it is common for the injection to cause a bit of a slump before things start improving. And if potential side-effects clear up in time.  Also wondering when natural production of test. starts reducing, is it at the first sign of exogenous test, ie would I already be starting to produce less natural test, or does that process take a while to kick in. Thanks.

 

Testosterone can affect immune function, you could also be showing an allergic reaction to your first dose, it generally subsides never to return, its just your body adapting to BA, or BB..

Natural production will decline, as will other downstream hormones from the initial precursor (cholesterol) such as DHEA, Pregnenolone etc.. 

Don't stop effexor cold turkey whatever you do, if you decide to stop see your Dr first and decide on a slow taper off over several weeks..

 

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Thanks Daz69. Yep I know all about stopping meds. like that cold turkey. It's the anti-fungals I'm thinking of stopping for as while, apparently they can be quite hard on the liver, and I'm just beginning to feel like there is enough going on in my system with effexor and getting the T. levels steady.  Oh well, sounds like a bit of a potential rollercoaster ride, till things settle down in a month or two I hope. In the meantime I shall continue. Great having you guys here, so new to all this, and of course never thought I would be going down this road.

2 hours ago, Daz69 said:

 

Testosterone can affect immune function, you could also be showing an allergic reaction to your first dose, it generally subsides never to return, its just your body adapting to BA, or BB..

Natural production will decline, as will other downstream hormones from the initial precursor (cholesterol) such as DHEA, Pregnenolone etc.. 

Don't stop effexor cold turkey whatever you do, if you decide to stop see your Dr first and decide on a slow taper off over several weeks..

 

 

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