Billybong Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Ive been training for 6yrs 2-3 seriously im 30yrs 185cm 90kg pre training 75kg So making very little gains now with over the counter supps so wanting to take the next step. like many others i thought about trying an oral only to start but ive quickly realised id most likely be waisting my time. so now im thinking of test e 500mg per week for 12-15w split dosed with clomid pct? also are internet sources reliable as long as it makes it through customs or am i better tracking down a local source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainlikeafreak Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 I would look at halving your dose and your length. Remember the goal is to get the most of out of the least. About 8 weeks Imo would give you enough time to make good gains, your body will keep responding and you won’t be shut down for too long if you care about long term health. but you’re probably not going to do that, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratz99 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 5 hours ago, trainlikeafreak said: About 8 weeks Imo would give you enough time to make good gains, your body will keep responding and you won’t be shut down for too long if you care about long term health. Random question bro and not meaning to hijack thread, but do you personally cruise&blast or cycle off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainlikeafreak Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 2 hours ago, ratz99 said: Random question bro and not meaning to hijack thread, but do you personally cruise&blast or cycle off? Completely against cruising bro... it may help in the short term but if you’re thinking long term health AND progress then I don’t see it as the way to go. I see it as basically frying your receptors which will then require more mgs to get results you could on much less if you had just come off and have your body time to normalise again. ratz99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daz69 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 13 hours ago, trainlikeafreak said: Completely against cruising bro... it may help in the short term but if you’re thinking long term health AND progress then I don’t see it as the way to go. I see it as basically frying your receptors which will then require more mgs to get results you could on much less if you had just come off and have your body time to normalise again. You don't fry receptors, AR upregulate to a point, but eventually after sustained elevated testosterone levels some desensitization occurs which leads to a decrease in mRNA levels acting as a negative feedback loop.. What research there is on the subject: In several cases it was found that the AR content increased but the binding affinity for androgens decreased resulting in a net loss of testosterone utilization. Essentially, after such a long period of exposure the extra testosterone (above a certain point) became useless, whereas initially when first starting a cycle the extra free testosterone resulted in an almost linear dose-dependent effect curve. So, there's still benefit to an extended cycle (longer than 12 weeks) but the growth experienced isn't near what one expects an the beginning of a cycle... almost a sort of plateau effect. Leaving a 3 month gap or so between cycles resulted in a stronger initial response to the androgens. ratz99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratz99 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Daz69 said: You don't fry receptors, AR upregulate to a point, but eventually after sustained elevated testosterone levels some desensitization occurs which leads to a decrease in mRNA levels acting as a negative feedback loop.. What research there is on the subject: In several cases it was found that the AR content increased but the binding affinity for androgens decreased resulting in a net loss of testosterone utilization. Essentially, after such a long period of exposure the extra testosterone (above a certain point) became useless, whereas initially when first starting a cycle the extra free testosterone resulted in an almost linear dose-dependent effect curve. So, there's still benefit to an extended cycle (longer than 12 weeks) but the growth experienced isn't near what one expects an the beginning of a cycle... almost a sort of plateau effect. Leaving a 3 month gap or so between cycles resulted in a stronger initial response to the androgens. Very interesting guys. To clarify Daz, when you say 'after such a long period of exposure the extra testosterone became useless' is it still fair to say that the person running 500mg permanently for arguments sake still has way more muscle building potential etc etc (very broad statement sorry) than someone natty? OR do you mean literally useless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainlikeafreak Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Daz69 said: You don't fry receptors, AR upregulate to a point, but eventually after sustained elevated testosterone levels some desensitization occurs which leads to a decrease in mRNA levels acting as a negative feedback loop.. What research there is on the subject: In several cases it was found that the AR content increased but the binding affinity for androgens decreased resulting in a net loss of testosterone utilization. Essentially, after such a long period of exposure the extra testosterone (above a certain point) became useless, whereas initially when first starting a cycle the extra free testosterone resulted in an almost linear dose-dependent effect curve. So, there's still benefit to an extended cycle (longer than 12 weeks) but the growth experienced isn't near what one expects an the beginning of a cycle... almost a sort of plateau effect. Leaving a 3 month gap or so between cycles resulted in a stronger initial response to the androgens. Isn’t that a complicated Way of describing what I just said...? By coming off you will get better results when you do blast hence allowing for greater long term games at smaller dosages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETN Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Daz is not saying that at all in what he wrote. Only that having high doses for long periods results in desensitization I.e. permanently blasting or mostly blasting with very short periods in between blasts. Cruising between blasts isn't "sustained elevated levels" of testosterone if you're cruising on near natural levels (which you should be or else it's not really a cruise) and as far as I can see Daz has not in this thread given an opinion on whether cruising is 'better' than going off or vice versa. Correct me if I'm wrong. IMO if you want to stay healthy and avoid sticking needles into yourself for the rest of your life then just stay natural. The whole 'gear' thing wears a bit thin as you get a bit older than your early 20s. ratz99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daz69 Posted October 8, 2017 Report Share Posted October 8, 2017 On 04/10/2017 at 9:53 AM, ratz99 said: Very interesting guys. To clarify Daz, when you say 'after such a long period of exposure the extra testosterone became useless' is it still fair to say that the person running 500mg permanently for arguments sake still has way more muscle building potential etc etc (very broad statement sorry) than someone natty? OR do you mean literally useless? It's likely they would get to a higher set-point than a non-steroid user (if all other things equal) after that any progression would be slow.. ratz99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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