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Chaosinflesh

Transgender M2F wins weighlifting contest.

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Ridiculous. A pic world gone obviously wrong.  Fact of the matter is,  she was born as a dude, so should compete with dudes.  If this sort of thing enters the Olympic Games etc, then it's a travesty 

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Fkn joke.

 

I read this the other day - they make you compete in the division that matches your birth cert even though it says she has the muscle mass of a guy...

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/26/transgender-boy-wins-high-school-girls-wrestling-tournament.html

 

Like PETN said - have a 3rd category if you're the only one, yay you win, you're a winner!

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I was the NZ under 18 record holder for weightlifting (and shot put till Tom Walsh came round).

I failed to break Hubbards under 20 records - yes, Gavin Hubbard was 180kg clean and jerk as a teenager good.

 

Tracey Lamprechts is a Commonwealth Bronze Medallist, and Olympian, at 111 snatch, 137kg clean and jerk level.

Hubbard did 123kg, 145kg.

 

Suppress my testosterone for a year and I'll break those easy.

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I know based on my previous posts I am probably expected to jump in here and say something completely PC. The truth is though, based on my own experience of transitioning the other way, there are physiological differences and advantages of the lifetime of testosterone that can not be underestimated.

I don't think the solution is to bar trans athletes from competition and those who are competing now are doing so within the rules and boundaries of their sports (I know for a fact that trans wrestler didn;t want to compete in the womens section at all) but there needs to be a metric shittonn more research done.

Interestingly enough, even in social sport this is an issue. Up until about a year ago I could have been forced to play indoor netball as a female, complete with full beard, just because that's what my birth certificate said . . . 

Realistically I could train and lift for the rest of my life and never be able to reach the strength I would have if I had have been born male, should this exclude me from all sports though? Same goes the other way, potentially other solutions about competing in different weight classes etc could be used, more research is most definitely needed though.

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Hi Psyke =D Your previous posts were very insightful, and I enjoyed reading them.

 

This was a champion male weightlifter who is 39 years old - well past his prime as a male (the average Olympic medal age for a male weightlifter is 26 [Yang, 2004]), and is now competing against women and dominating at their respective level.

 

The issue is not really the exclusion of transgenders from all sports - or even from any sports. I don't think anyone would suggest a transgender not participate and enjoy their chosen sport. If weightlifting were a gender-neutral sport, it wouldn't even be a problem. The issue is more the awarding of medals and trophies - which is competitive and segregated to effect some semblance of fairness to those who compete.

 

 A person I'd really like to hear from in this debate is Valerie Adams. How would she feel competing against a fellow female athlete who, say, had been clean for a year, but openly admitted to spending the previous couple of decades on test? M2F would seem to be rather closely aligned to this scenario, I posit.

 

Out of curiosity - would a F2M struggle physically against a M2F in strength-based competitions? Would a single TG category work?

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I'm pleased you posted, Psyke. I wanted to hear your perspective, but I didn't want to drag you in here as the "official spokesman for all things transgender. " :-D

 

You say more research is needed, and I'm sure that's true - but can you elaborate on that? What sort of research? And how would the outcome be applied here?

 

For example, if your research shows that M2F transgender athletes are stronger than those who are born female (and common sense would suggest that's probably true), what do you take from that, other than now being certain that there is a problem?

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6 hours ago, Chaosinflesh said:

Out of curiosity - would a F2M struggle physically against a M2F in strength-based competitions? Would a single TG category work?

 

Too many variables to say for sure. E.g. which specific sport, level of exogenous hormones and probably the amount of time the male trained before they started lying to everyone about their sex and taking female hormones and duration of this and how long the female has been taking test for among others.

 

Untested women's powerlifting is a good indication of how strong women can get taking male hormones. Still significantly weaker than men taking exogenous male hormones and weaker than the top level guys who are supposedly natural.

 

It's absurd and disgusting enough that people are doing that shit to their bodies let alone expecting to be allowed to ram their own beliefs (which are a result of their mental illness) down the throats of everyone else and compete as the opposite sex to what they actually are.

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15 hours ago, Chaosinflesh said:

Hi Psyke =D Your previous posts were very insightful, and I enjoyed reading them.

 

This was a champion male weightlifter who is 39 years old - well past his prime as a male (the average Olympic medal age for a male weightlifter is 26 [Yang, 2004]), and is now competing against women and dominating at their respective level.

 

The issue is not really the exclusion of transgenders from all sports - or even from any sports. I don't think anyone would suggest a transgender not participate and enjoy their chosen sport. If weightlifting were a gender-neutral sport, it wouldn't even be a problem. The issue is more the awarding of medals and trophies - which is competitive and segregated to effect some semblance of fairness to those who compete.

 

 A person I'd really like to hear from in this debate is Valerie Adams. How would she feel competing against a fellow female athlete who, say, had been clean for a year, but openly admitted to spending the previous couple of decades on test? M2F would seem to be rather closely aligned to this scenario, I posit.

 

Out of curiosity - would a F2M struggle physically against a M2F in strength-based competitions? Would a single TG category work?

 

 

Howdy :-)

 

I know the issue isn't exclusion however even in the instance a separate category isn't really viable either.  Like you, I would like to hear from others at the top level on this one. I would also like to see way more research done.

Again all as I really have here are anecdotes and personal experience but the hormones and body structure you have in your formative years seems to have a huge impact on strength and physical fitness post-transition, going both ways.

 

With very different strength and hormone profiles I don't think a single TG category would cover it either. For most sports it should be fine to throw FTM guys into the male category, I can't think of too many sports where we would be at an advantage. It's definitely a tough one though.

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9 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

I'm pleased you posted, Psyke. I wanted to hear your perspective, but I didn't want to drag you in here as the "official spokesman for all things transgender. " :-D

 

You say more research is needed, and I'm sure that's true - but can you elaborate on that? What sort of research? And how would the outcome be applied here?

 

For example, if your research shows that M2F transgender athletes are stronger than those who are born female (and common sense would suggest that's probably true), what do you take from that, other than now being certain that there is a problem?

 

 

Lol, I tend to end up in that position as soon as I out myself to people anyway ;-)

 

I'm not 100% sure, it would depend on what the research said but I would think there would need to be some changes made in the category people are placed in. Whether seperate TG catergories (not ideal) or some form of grading/hanicap system.

For me, my current life example is the police force fitness test. I am being graded as male on the 2.4km run. On the face of it this seems fair enough, I am legally male and have a full beard . . . I also, however have smaller lungs and heart to that of someone born male so the test is a fair amount harder for me than for them. In this instance I could fight to be classed as a special snowflake, the reality is I will just work my ass off harder than the rest to make the grade. My ideal though would be that I was graded aginst the time for the age bracket above mine, I would see this as a fair compromise. I'm not asking for female times, 5 years of T means I should be doing well better than that, the science is too far behind on this one thought to know exactly where I should be.

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8 hours ago, PETN said:

 

It's absurd and disgusting enough that people are doing that shit to their bodies let alone expecting to be allowed to ram their own beliefs (which are a result of their mental illness) down the throats of everyone else and compete as the opposite sex to what they actually are.

 

 

Your jealousy is showing PETN, just because you can't rock the fishnets and heels  doesn't mean you need to attack those who can :-P

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2 hours ago, Psyke said:

 

Your jealousy is showing PETN, just because you can't rock the fishnets and heels  doesn't mean you need to attack those who can :-p

 

I thought you can't either now?

 

Maybe they should not have gender categories at all in sport. Of course males will dominate but aren't we all supposedly equals so therefore it's fair? I'm sure females and all the made up genders will make up for that disadvantage somewhere else e.g. cleaning/cooking mediocre food or being disgusting weird cunts. Maybe those things should be sports too?

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1 hour ago, PETN said:

 

I thought you can't either now?

 

Maybe they should not have gender categories at all in sport. Of course males will dominate but aren't we all supposedly equals so therefore it's fair? I'm sure females and all the made up genders will make up for that disadvantage somewhere else e.g. cleaning/cooking mediocre food or being disgusting weird cunts. Maybe those things should be sports too?

 

 

My legs look far better in heels now :-p I also wear more makeup now than I ever did before.

 

The whole thing is a clusterfuck of politics and science and I don't think there will be a real answer to this any time soon. 

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f*ck science and politics. This dude knows hes a dude. Hes a foot taller than any of the actual females. If he had any character he wouldn't choose to compete against them. Go hit some PBs you receding hair lined motherfucker.

 

Guess its fitting this cunts becoming a female ( give it 90 years ) cos he definitely has no balls to pull a move like this.

 

 

Capture.JPG

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Hey, come on, guys... I know this is a contentious issue, and people are naturally angry and upset about it. You're perfectly entitled to feel that way and voice your opinion - but please keep any wider transgender hate and intolerance to yourself.

 

Here's my 2c...

- Currently the sports system is not adequate to cater for transgenders. Whether (and how) it ever can be is a matter for debate, but I don't think anyone would argue that the current situation is not ideal.

- If the rules meant that Hubbard was unable to compete as a male (I believe that's the case?), then the choice was to compete as a female, or not compete at all.

- Scenario 1: She doesn't compete. She's been disadvantaged because of her gender (yes, her "chosen" gender), and that sucks for her.

- Scenario 2: She competes against women. Now she's disadvantaging every other woman in the competition (through no fault or choice of theirs), and that REALLY sucks for them.

- It seems like a pretty simple equation to me - better to disadvantage one than to disadvantage many. But Hubbard chose to compete anyway, and that's where I disagree with her.

 

 

14 hours ago, Psyke said:

it would depend on what the research said but I would think there would need to be some changes made in the category people are placed in. Whether seperate TG catergories (not ideal) or some form of grading/hanicap system.

So a system like Wilks points that would allow TG athletes to compete? Interesting. I wonder if it would ever be possible. I'm sure some of our powerlifitng nerds could tell us how big a dataset was required to produce the Wilks formula.

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Too complex, wouldn't work. What would work is if trannies had their own competition though and male to females competed against each other and female to males against each other. Maybe a transgender proponent with deep pockets could start up a transgender Olympics or tack on those categories to the special Olympics if there wasn't a big enough interest for a standalone games? Or even a hunger games type event where these people are rounded up and forced to do battle to the last man standing on an island or similar. That's something I'd pay to watch. Psyke do you think any of those ideas have any merit?

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8 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

Hey, come on, guys... I know this is a contentious issue, and people are naturally angry and upset about it. You're perfectly entitled to feel that way and voice your opinion - but please keep any wider transgender hate and intolerance to yourself.

 

Here's my 2c...

- Currently the sports system is not adequate to cater for transgenders. Whether (and how) it ever can be is a matter for debate, but I don't think anyone would argue that the current situation is not ideal.

- If the rules meant that Hubbard was unable to compete as a male (I believe that's the case?), then the choice was to compete as a female, or not compete at all.

- Scenario 1: She doesn't compete. She's been disadvantaged because of her gender (yes, her "chosen" gender), and that sucks for her.

- Scenario 2: She competes against women. Now she's disadvantaging every other woman in the competition (through no fault or choice of theirs), and that REALLY sucks for them.

- It seems like a pretty simple equation to me - better to disadvantage one than to disadvantage many. But Hubbard chose to compete anyway, and that's where I disagree with her.

 

 

So a system like Wilks points that would allow TG athletes to compete? Interesting. I wonder if it would ever be possible. I'm sure some of our powerlifitng nerds could tell us how big a dataset was required to produce the Wilks formula.

How the f*ck is my comment "wider" transgender hate? I was merely saying this dude who competed against women is a gutless dipshit.  If your comment wasn't at me then ignore that but it seems pretty well timed to not be. If you think I'm against transgender then you also fit into the dipshit category as you know nothing about my life or my circle of friends.

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10 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

 

 

Here's my 2c...

- Currently the sports system is not adequate to cater for transgenders. Whether (and how) it ever can be is a matter for debate, but I don't think anyone would argue that the current situation is not ideal.

- If the rules meant that Hubbard was unable to compete as a male (I believe that's the case?), then the choice was to compete as a female, or not compete at all.

- Scenario 1: She doesn't compete. She's been disadvantaged because of her gender (yes, her "chosen" gender), and that sucks for her.

- Scenario 2: She competes against women. Now she's disadvantaging every other woman in the competition (through no fault or choice of theirs), and that REALLY sucks for them.

- It seems like a pretty simple equation to me - better to disadvantage one than to disadvantage many. But Hubbard chose to compete anyway, and that's where I disagree with her.

 

 

1

 

 

While I tend to agree here, without her deciding to compete this issue would never have come into "wider" discussion and therefore a solution would never have been discussed. As much as it's shit for all involved, someone had to stick their neck out to do it . . . 

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9 hours ago, PETN said:

Too complex, wouldn't work. What would work is if trannies had their own competition though and male to females competed against each other and female to males against each other. Maybe a transgender proponent with deep pockets could start up a transgender Olympics or tack on those categories to the special Olympics if there wasn't a big enough interest for a standalone games? Or even a hunger games type event where these people are rounded up and forced to do battle to the last man standing on an island or similar. That's something I'd pay to watch. Psyke do you think any of those ideas have any merit?

 

 

 

I know there are FTM specific powerlifting and bodybuilding comps in the states. They are pretty niche and the competitor pool is pretty small but they do exist. I'm not sure on MTF type stuff but I do know they have specific beauty pageants (which I would say a bigger proportion of them are into vs powerlifting . . .)

I have a feeling a lot of people will see that as akin to the "separate but equal" argument about apartheid however. They would like to be able to compete aginst their recognised gender instead of banished to their own category. I get both sides, I would like to compete against guys, I also get that physically I will never be fully equal and would be better placed in a comp against trans guys. MTF are a bit more complicated though as all logic points to them having an advantage in standard competition.

Just a sidenote, this is all entirely my own opinion, I would venture a lot in the trans community would like to fight to be in standard competition . . . 

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1 hour ago, donz said:

How the f*ck is my comment "wider" transgender hate? I was merely saying this dude who competed against women is a gutless dipshit.  If your comment wasn't at me then ignore that but it seems pretty well timed to not be. If you think I'm against transgender then you also fit into the dipshit category as you know nothing about my life or my circle of friends.

 

 

I think probably because you are calling someone who has medically and legally transitioned to female a "dude" your comments could be construed as hate. 

As an aside, I have heard really good things about Hubbard in terms of who she is as a person, gutless doesn't come into any of them. Someone had to stick their neck out about this and she has done so . . . As expected it's brought about a bigger conversation around this sort of thing and has people thinking of potential solutions . . . Admittedly at the expense of a who heap of people who don't know her questioning her motives and character. I wouldn't call that gutless to be honest . . . 

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5 minutes ago, Psyke said:

 

I think probably because you are calling someone who has medically and legally transitioned to female a "dude" your comments could be construed as hate. 

As an aside, I have heard really good things about Hubbard in terms of who she is as a person, gutless doesn't come into any of them. Someone had to stick their neck out about this and she has done so . . . As expected it's brought about a bigger conversation around this sort of thing and has people thinking of potential solutions . . . Admittedly at the expense of a who heap of people who don't know her questioning her motives and character. I wouldn't call that gutless to be honest . . . 

Nope you're wrong. I'm calling a human being a dude, dipshit, gutless etc. I'm not hating on humans as a race I'm hating on one person who I think is a cock. Take as much offence as you want, doesn't bother me. Not going to check back on this thread anyway so tough shit.

 

No one had to stick their neck out on this. Not at all. I compete in powerlifting currently as a male and If I ever transitioned to a female I would stop lifting in competitions because I'm not a douche bag. I am also not natural and if I came off gear and was "natural" I wouldn't lift in the IPF because I feel that would still be a douche move.

 

The human being in this story and situation made a dick move. It's simple.

 

 

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