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Biggerbythedaynz

Progress and low testosterone

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Hi guys, hope all are well.

I joined here a little while ago after moving here but havent posted much focusing as best i can on getting back in shape etc.

So in 4months ive dropped the 10kgs i was aiming for (yay) but have had issues gaining lean mass. Now im not a novice spent time competing 'once upon a time' lol so diet/training on point but noticed body isnt what it was. Age is 33 but noticing heaps of weakness,lethargy, etc etc but give it 100% in the gym.always been natty as well and know/knew my body very well no changes caused by taking random stuff. Knowing somethings up been to the docs and my testosterone levels are lower than expected, (makes sense why im battling a bit) due to a follow up for second bloods test to see if decreasing/fluctuating. Doc reckons options include hrt. Now ive never done 'pro' hormones but have also never half assed anything so if my test is low stuff hrt ill go the whole hog and source (if can be done safely) as i wont be able to say natty anymore. However at this stage any advice on the local supps scene for off the shelf assistance in regulating/returning to normal levels test boosters. What have you guys used? Pharmafreak? Musclepharm? Like test freak  or tribulus Etc.. trolled the online retailers and everyone claims their supps are the best. Anyone in a similar situation feel the off shelf stuff helped and did you have descent results? or am i just delusional?so opinions please fellas as am a novice in this area aside for whey and mass protein shakes lol? Thanks folks

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30 minutes ago, Biggerbythedaynz said:

Hi guys, hope all are well.

I joined here a little while ago after moving here but havent posted much focusing as best i can on getting back in shape etc.

So in 4months ive dropped the 10kgs i was aiming for (yay) but have had issues gaining lean mass. Now im not a novice spent time competing 'once upon a time' lol so diet/training on point but noticed body isnt what it was. Age is 33 but noticing heaps of weakness,lethargy, etc etc but give it 100% in the gym.always been natty as well and know/knew my body very well no changes caused by taking random stuff. Knowing somethings up been to the docs and my testosterone levels are lower than expected, (makes sense why im battling a bit) due to a follow up for second bloods test to see if decreasing/fluctuating. Doc reckons options include hrt. Now ive never done 'pro' hormones but have also never half assed anything so if my test is low stuff hrt ill go the whole hog and source (if can be done safely) as i wont be able to say natty anymore. However at this stage any advice on the local supps scene for off the shelf assistance in regulating/returning to normal levels test boosters. What have you guys used? Pharmafreak? Musclepharm? Like test freak  or tribulus Etc.. trolled the online retailers and everyone claims their supps are the best. Anyone in a similar situation feel the off shelf stuff helped and did you have descent results? or am i just delusional?so opinions please fellas as am a novice in this area aside for whey and mass protein shakes lol? Thanks folks

 

Hey... If blood tests confirm low testosterone, you won't be prescribed pro-hormones you will be given testosterone..

There are various compounds used by endocrinologist to attempt elevation in natural testosterone, such as triptorelin, clomiphene, hCG, hMG etc..

They only tend to work while you are on a course of treatment..

Natural test boosters don't work, don't believe the hype or waste your money..

 

Before you consider sourcing, remember your Dr will prescribe pharmaceutical grade testosterone, injection would be preferred, although the amount might not be to your liking, or the injection protocol..

 

You might want to look into Testosterone Buciclate, it's relatively unknown but has a long half-life (29.5 days), dose stays in normal physiological range, therefore you don't get the peaks and troughs as with normal esters responsible for side effects, and the lethargy as the dose decreases.. (good luck finding it).. 

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Thank you @Daz69 , hopefully I'm all good and won't need anything after round two, thank you for your reply much appreciated will look up the product you mentioned but will still attempt to get my gains drug free :) (glutton for punishment right) lol.

ive always believed in real food, make my own protein shakes most of the time,but do buy whey or higher protein/carb shakes dependant on where I'm at.  Too stubborn to give up just yet.

thanks again much appreciated

 

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11 hours ago, Biggerbythedaynz said:

Thank you @Daz69 , hopefully I'm all good and won't need anything after round two, thank you for your reply much appreciated will look up the product you mentioned but will still attempt to get my gains drug free :) (glutton for punishment right) lol.

ive always believed in real food, make my own protein shakes most of the time,but do buy whey or higher protein/carb shakes dependant on where I'm at.  Too stubborn to give up just yet.

thanks again much appreciated

 

 

If you are diagnosed as hypogonadal the condition doesn't get any better, if anything the condition can worsen over time..

Your Dr should then refer you to an endocrinologist for further tests, and subsequent treatment plan that could include  GnRH (gonadotrophin releasing hormone) agonist, when given as a single dose acts as antagonist stimulating release of LH.

 AI (aromatase inhibitor), SERM (selective estrogen receptor modulator), hCG, hMG etc..

But as previously stated they only seem to work while being administered..

 

Low testosterone has many side effects upon the body therefore treatment should be encouraged to return to physiological hormone levels..

 

Remember low testosterone as well as being bad for the heart due to atherosclerosis, or hardening of the arteries, insulin resistance, obesity, and diabetes, results in lowered estrogen which has many negative effects within the body such as lipid metabolism, bone remodelling,  etc.. 

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Thanks @Daz69 the insightful information you have given has given me food for thought.

appreciate the time and effort in writing all of that up.

i googled the product you mentioned and it stated it was developed to be a male contraceptive and am hoping to be a dad soon before I'm 35 hopefully so may steer clear. Was reading up on what's seen to be a prominent online supp site here in NZ and some products claim a 3-400% rise in natural testosterone levels containing tribulus etc... which is a pretty good boost I guess for my position, however have my doubts as whether it's true or not  multi billion $ industry I'm sure they could be proved or proved wrong and if they were that great I'm sure the Olympia boys would be on them instead of the 'good stuff' often questioned the validity of over counter supps. On the fence about it all still, try the over counter stuff hope to still stay somewhat natty or just st accept I'm getting a little older with a side medical issue and say stuff it and go all in and start a novice cycle instead of half ass low dr doses, key for me is being health with a goal of competing again, 3-5 years hard training see where I'm at and if I'm still not where I need to be keep going and compete in over 40 lol as I know how long it takes to build properly,drop and identify weak areas etc.

With the info you have provided your advice is respected and appreciated

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Testosterone buciclate was researched back in 1995 regarding potential for contraception therapy, its action is the same as any esterified testosterone via its inhibition of GnRH, LH and FSH..

Obviously administering exogenous hormone will result in negative feedback of natural synthesis, via the mechanisms described..

Hypogonadal males are prescribed testosterone with ester attached to prolong the half life within the body, what tends to happen with medium releasing esters such as enanthate or cypionate is initially there is a sharp peak in blood plasma levels of hormone (testosterone), this peak seems to be responsible for side effects of metabolization to DHT and oestradiol via 5alpha reductase and aromatase CYP19A1..

The reason I suggested buciclate was it long half life combined slow release that seems NOT to create  an initial plasma peak, therefore mitigating usual side effects.. (although I doubt you may find it in NZ)

 

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Aug;80(8):2394-403.
Potential of testosterone buciclate for male contraception: endocrine differences between responders and nonresponders.
 
With regards online supplements meant to boost natural testosterone levels, d-aspartic acid has been shown to initially boost natural testosterone levels in some studys but all test subjects returned to normal after 30 days, with no sign of increased muscle size..
All the rest are to put it bluntly bollocks..!! Its been covered many times on here and elsewhere, do your research but I think you will be disappointed..

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Not sure if this will help but I had below normal levels of testosterone about 3 months ago at the end of my cut. For me this was due to over training for a few months and copious amounts of caffeine which boosted cortisol and consequently fucked with my testosterone. 

 

It took me about 8 weeks but with;

Vitamin D,

ZMA,

Fengugreek, 

Swiss men's multi,

Almost all decaf coffee (I drink 5-8 cups a day), 

And a bit more of a sensible gymming schedule.

 

I've managed to return to about normal levels, with energy levels and libido and the like seemingly normal. 

 

I was pretty surprised that it happened to me at 26, but it just shows it can happen pretty young if you do stupid shit. Anywho, that's my experience, I'm currently trying Test Freak, for shits and giggles (3/4 of the recommended dose though) and will let you know if that seems to make any impact too.

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Thanks @ShaanRB

Appreciate the comment, happy to give tgat a go, i dont drink coffee/ caffeine much so thats easy enough will give your suggestion a go. Yes please do update us how you get on with the test freak, be cool to know!

The guys on this forum have been awesome with help so its great to be able to feed back findings and results. Just curious how is your free test? Mine was too low for a reading. Be good to know if yours was the same and how test freak may of helped you :) i had a look at the off shelf boosters and seen some claims of 3-400% increase in test within a few days and am suspicious if it is the case because guys wouldnt resort to gear if they could get amazing gains off a shelf and now trouble with the law. Having said that im happy to give the off shelf stuff a go before going onto presecribed meds as i feel that would impact my wanting to be natty. (false logic i guess if using off shelf boosters right?) Lol  cheers for the response :)

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12 minutes ago, Biggerbythedaynz said:

Thanks @ShaanRB

Appreciate the comment, happy to give tgat a go, i dont drink coffee/ caffeine much so thats easy enough will give your suggestion a go. Yes please do update us how you get on with the test freak, be cool to know!

The guys on this forum have been awesome with help so its great to be able to feed back findings and results. Just curious how is your free test? Mine was too low for a reading. Be good to know if yours was the same and how test freak may of helped you :) i had a look at the off shelf boosters and seen some claims of 3-400% increase in test within a few days and am suspicious if it is the case because guys wouldnt resort to gear if they could get amazing gains off a shelf and now trouble with the law. Having said that im happy to give the off shelf stuff a go before going onto presecribed meds as i feel that would impact my wanting to be natty. (false logic i guess if using off shelf boosters right?) Lol  cheers for the response :)


The test boosters won't do shit bro, like literally almost nothing. Don't waste your $$$. You'd be lucky if they raise it buy 1%. period. Anyone on here will tell you that man, just a heads up.

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8 hours ago, ratz99 said:


The test boosters won't do shit bro, like literally almost nothing. Don't waste your $$$. You'd be lucky if they raise it buy 1%. period. Anyone on here will tell you that man, just a heads up.

I agree that for the average person with normal levels of testosterone there will only be negligible increases, but for someone with low testosterone for whatever reason, I do think it has some value. 

 

In saying that, do you need to spend that money on a concoction like that? Probably not, I solely supplemented using proven nutrients for restoring hormone balances initially and that did the trick for me, and was pretty cheap too. 

 

I think by and large it's mostly overtraining (stress), and caffeine or other stressors in our lives that tend to mess with our cortisol, impacting our testosterone levels (at least for gym goers). Hell I even considered "mindfulness" for a while, but I'm too restless for something like that. 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Biggerbythedaynz said:

Hi @Daz69 got new results in today test level 7 nmol , I know low is considered 8.7 

guess I'll have to explore this route my good ol boys ain't so good anymore lol

 

7 nmol is on the low side, and low enough to qualify for TRT.. (if shown to be consistently low for 6 months)..

Did your blood test take place early morning..? If test was mid afternoon I might suggest a re-test at 8-9am as natural pulsatile release is higher am..

As for natural test boosters, don't believe the hype.. If you are hypogonadal, you are hypogonadal unfortunately..

There are many potential causes that need to be explored by an endocrinologist..

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2 hours ago, ShaanRB said:

I agree that for the average person with normal levels of testosterone there will only be negligible increases, but for someone with low testosterone for whatever reason, I do think it has some value. 

 

In saying that, do you need to spend that money on a concoction like that? Probably not, I solely supplemented using proven nutrients for restoring hormone balances initially and that did the trick for me, and was pretty cheap too. 

Agreed. I'd be sceptical about natural test "boosters" like tribulus, fenugreek, or horny goat weed.

 

However, zinc deficiency is relatively common, and that can cause low testosterone. So a good ZMA supplement is certainly worth a try, wouldn't you say, @Daz69? To be honest, the ZMA and a multi probably do more than the rest of the items on that shopping list put together!

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32 minutes ago, Pseudonym said:

Agreed. I'd be sceptical about natural test "boosters" like tribulus, fenugreek, or horny goat weed.

 

However, zinc deficiency is relatively common, and that can cause low testosterone. So a good ZMA supplement is certainly worth a try, wouldn't you say, @Daz69? To be honest, the ZMA and a multi probably do more than the rest of the items on that shopping list put together!

 

 

I've looked into ZMA previously, research shows no increase in testosterone or IGF-1..

 

Zinc deficiency should be avoided, as it's deleterious effects have been documented, as have effects of too much zinc on immune function etc.

If dietary zinc is within normal range I wouldn't bother with supplementation.. (this is more where the problem lies, zinc won't increase testosterone but low zinc may result in lowered testosterone synthesis)..

 

Regarding zinc properties as a metal it has difficulty passing the phospholipid bilayer (cannot exit stomach lining into blood or enter cell easily).. Zinc picolinate is popular because it makes the molecule lipophilic (fat loving) thus able to be absorbed more easily...

 

Too much zinc >200-300mg/day  can affect copper absorption, so keep within healthy range.. 

 

European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2009) 63, 65–70; doi:10.1038/sj.ejcn.1602899; published online 19 September 2007

Serum testosterone and urinary excretion of steroid hormone metabolites after administration of a high-dose zinc supplement 

The present data suggest that the use of ZMA has no significant effects regarding serum testosterone levels and the metabolism of testosterone in subjects who consume a zinc-sufficient diet.

 

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v63/n1/full/1602899a.html

 

Effects of Zinc Magnesium Aspartate (ZMA) Supplementation on Training Adaptations and Markers of Anabolism and Catabolism

The major findings of this study was that dietary supplementation of a commercially available ZMA supplement resulted in a non-significant 12–17% increase in serum zinc levels but did not appear to effect anabolic or catabolic responses to resistance training, body composition, or training adaptations. These findings do not support contentions that ZMA supplementation during training increases muscle mass and/or enhances training adaptations. 

 

http://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-1-2-12

 

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So in translation...

 

ZMA = could be good if you're zinc deficient, but useless if you're not. And if you do try zinc supplementation, try to get zinc picolinate since that absorbs better than other forms.

 

Is that what we're saying? :-D 

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@Daz69 thanks bro, so far 7 has been the highest, apparently free testosterone wasnt able to be measured as was said to be too lol, hcg,liver and kidney function higher than normal referred to specialist to investigate my pituitary gland further.  Tests were done 08:30. Definitely sounds like im up the creek without a paddle in this battle at present. As much as it pains me to say it, i may end up being no longer all natty. Just one of those things i guess but overall health is more important. Have noticed my strength has tapered off, deadlift max was 150 × 1 rep. today, before i could smash out 220 for a few reps. Battle of the mind as well thansk for your input it is appreciated, the docs dont seem to like answering a few basic questions which is un-nerving.  Prob have the wrong quack looking after  me lol

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2 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

So in translation...

 

ZMA = could be good if you're zinc deficient, but useless if you're not. And if you do try zinc supplementation, try to get zinc picolinate since that absorbs better than other forms.

 

Is that what we're saying? :-D 

 

In a nutshell, yes..

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9 minutes ago, Biggerbythedaynz said:

@Daz69 thanks bro, so far 7 has been the highest, apparently free testosterone wasnt able to be measured as was said to be too lol, hcg,liver and kidney function higher than normal referred to specialist to investigate my pituitary gland further.  Tests were done 08:30. Definitely sounds like im up the creek without a paddle in this battle at present. As much as it pains me to say it, i may end up being no longer all natty. Just one of those things i guess but overall health is more important. Have noticed my strength has tapered off, deadlift max was 150 × 1 rep. today, before i could smash out 220 for a few reps. Battle of the mind as well thansk for your input it is appreciated, the docs dont seem to like answering a few basic questions which is un-nerving.  Prob have the wrong quack looking after  me lol

 

I think most Dr's don't know enough about endocrinology related matters.. Plus our knowledge has advanced greatly since most were at medschool..

I would suggest your Dr looks into elevated serum hCG, as it can potentially indicate underlying pathology..

 

 

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Hey @Daz69 update as promised, so ironic how many guys are falsely trying get on trt and heres me be an idiot with legitimate reason to hoping for a miracle lol. For s@#$% and giggles i used over counter boosters for interest sake been 3weeks tomorrow and had follow up bloods today for my appointment next week. Heres the kicker my test was 6.8 so less than it was before being on boosters for two days short of three weeks . So much for the 400% increase in 12days lol just as you had said. Looks like i have to concede defeat on this one and accept im nore bitch than bro at the moment and man up,accept it and get help. Still giving it the beans in the gym despite the lack of strength/endurance  as its declined over the past year,getting through my training with sheer willpower but honestly not much in the gains department as of recent. Noticeable fat retention in chest and hip areas. Not digging the love handles at all! Will update soon .

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4 hours ago, Biggerbythedaynz said:

For s@#$% and giggles i used over counter boosters for interest sake been 3weeks tomorrow and had follow up bloods today for my appointment next week. Heres the kicker my test was 6.8 so less than it was before being on boosters for two days short of three weeks .

Well, at least you have a conclusive result showing whether test boosters work or not! There's no "maybe" about this one! :-D

 

What OTC products did you try?

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41 minutes ago, Pseudonym said:

Well, at least you have a conclusive result showing whether test boosters work or not! There's no "maybe" about this one! :-D

 

What OTC products did you try?

Hi Pseudonym, 

Didnt mention brand names as believe it gets you into trouble here lol but as you asked im sure ill be forgiven :)

I used pharmafreak test freak and anabolic freak based on their clinical claims etc...

Followed the directions for use explicitly and at the same times,made sure my nutrition was on point etc... now im not claiming the product doesnt work, what i am saying is it clearly doesnt work for me. Im not sure whether its to do with my not having normal T levels to start with. Im guessing if it is going to be given a fighting chance i imagine it would be with someone with normal levels checking to see if there was any increase to be fair (id be keen to know). My T went from 7.0 to 6.8 while using them together as a 'powerful stack' as they put it. @Daz69 will know better than me im sure but it may be due to my not being able to produce enough for it to 'boost' so the fault may lay with me. Either that or the AI in it is so good its prevents everything from converting ;) unless im really in trouble with my T levels this week and it boosted me up to 6.8 haha wonder if any members with normal physiology have had better results? This has left me at the original crossroad which is enhanced via trt to +- normal or to just say oh well i may as well chuck in the lot and go all out and do my first ever cycle giving being able to find reliable legit source and acquire suitable knowledge before hand, and see where to from there. Paramount for me is health above all else and as mentioned id rather prefer competing again someday natty knowing i achieved my goal originally set for myself. Even though trt would keep me in more or less normal range as opposed to optimal cycle volumes i dont think i could claim natty with clear conscience. Oh well chin up and go chuck a few dumbells around :)

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12 hours ago, Biggerbythedaynz said:

Hi Pseudonym, 

Didnt mention brand names as believe it gets you into trouble here lol but as you asked im sure ill be forgiven :)

I used pharmafreak test freak and anabolic freak based on their clinical claims etc...

Followed the directions for use explicitly and at the same times,made sure my nutrition was on point etc... now im not claiming the product doesnt work, what i am saying is it clearly doesnt work for me. Im not sure whether its to do with my not having normal T levels to start with. Im guessing if it is going to be given a fighting chance i imagine it would be with someone with normal levels checking to see if there was any increase to be fair (id be keen to know). My T went from 7.0 to 6.8 while using them together as a 'powerful stack' as they put it. @Daz69 will know better than me im sure but it may be due to my not being able to produce enough for it to 'boost' so the fault may lay with me. Either that or the AI in it is so good its prevents everything from converting ;) unless im really in trouble with my T levels this week and it boosted me up to 6.8 haha wonder if any members with normal physiology have had better results? This has left me at the original crossroad which is enhanced via trt to +- normal or to just say oh well i may as well chuck in the lot and go all out and do my first ever cycle giving being able to find reliable legit source and acquire suitable knowledge before hand, and see where to from there. Paramount for me is health above all else and as mentioned id rather prefer competing again someday natty knowing i achieved my goal originally set for myself. Even though trt would keep me in more or less normal range as opposed to optimal cycle volumes i dont think i could claim natty with clear conscience. Oh well chin up and go chuck a few dumbells around :)

 

 

its not because the starting point was low. its because the products are snake oil and do nothing (and the maker knows this)

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