clearing receptors

[bang_bang]

In your guys experience what's the optimal amount of time off between cycles? I've learnt that going on and off seems to be the best way to progress rather than pushing more and more drugs but where's the sweet spot between not losing too much strength/size and getting a good response when you jump back on? I've accepted my endocrine system is probably shot so that's not a consideration.

[I Declare War]

Sorry for the story... hope it's useful :)......

 

Personally I do TRT almost year round along with HCG. This keeps the sex drive going great. Sometimes I may go a week or two without anything, just because things get busy or I want a break... always when I go back to the routine it's a nice kick.

 

If I do a cycle I only do 4 weeks at a time. Only done a couple this year and I'm in week 3 of one currently. Going great.

 

I'm not competitive so this suits me well. It's pretty laid back, and I feel I get a good kick from the gear.

 

For my gear I do everything subcutaneous. I've found a good routine that works for me. The area that I pin is under the skin no further than 2 inches away from my genitals on the thighs and even in the pubic area above the.... Skin's quite loose there and easy to pin under. It's perfect.

 

TRT dosage is:

Test only -  0.25mL pinned every other day using a 27g insulin syringe.

HCG around 250 IU pinned every other day as well on separate days in a separate syringe. Pinned around the naval area

 

Current cycle dosage is:

Also subq. Test 0.5mL + Deca 0.5mL (1mL total but have tried 1.5mL and it works fine) pinned every other day with a 26g on a 3mL barrel. Works great, no post injection pain or anything - probably can go up to 2mL injections... or more? need to play around some more one day.

 

Have learned to be very careful with subq injections with regard to using clean technique. Always swab vial rubbers and area to be pinned, then put some betadine over pinned area and use a small plaster to cover it / indicate pinned area. Had a few lumps a while back when I wasn't doing this ... don't get this anymore since cleaning the technique.

 

If I was serious about gaining a lot I'd do 1 month on cycle followed by 1 month of TRT, and just repeat this. I'm sure it'd keep you quite sensitised. Otherwise 1 month cycle followed by 2 months TRT would surely keep the receptors primed to go when on cycle.

 

[bang_bang]

Interesting post probably worthy of a seperate discussion. 

 

 

[Terrymundo]

@I Declare War so many questions for you mate.

Bang bang asks about time off and you talk about your trt / blast protocol??

Why subq?

Why pin eod for trt? Why not once every week or every other week?

What good can a 4 cycle do?

Do only you blast short esters?

Why only 4 weeks on trt then blast?

[Terrymundo]

@bang_bang

I find a MINIMUM of 8 weeks is the time I need to take off to get a decent response when I go back on. More time the better

[I Declare War]

4 hours ago, Terrymundo said:

@I Declare War so many questions for you mate.

Bang bang asks about time off and you talk about your trt / blast protocol??

Why subq?

Why pin eod for trt? Why not once every week or every other week?

What good can a 4 cycle do?

Do only you blast short esters?

Why only 4 weeks on trt then blast?

 

Hey bud

• Bang bang asks about time off and you talk about your trt / blast protocol??

Partly it's my ADHD playing up & I felt like I needed to set a bit of context to my response so that it makes a bit more sense.

 

• Why subq?

I had been doing IM for so many years, just because everyone else did. I was wanting to do TRT because I felt I never came back right after I stopped gear (was off for 2 years straight). Injecting into the muscle is what I hated the most about it so I wanted to avoid that.

• Why pin eod for trt? Why not once every week or every other week?

Very good question. Two reasons.

Firstly, I don't know for certain what the absorption kinetics (how quickly the injected substance) for subq are. I don't know how quickly the gear gets used by the body, because there aren't enough studies that I have come across studying this. I felt I needed to inject more frequently to cover the possibility of it being quickly eliminated by the body.

 

Secondly, I didn't know that I could inject larger volumes until very recently. I was finding that nearly always there would be an immune reaction to the injected substance, I'd develop a small bump where I had injected. I thought this was just how it was meant to be... until I got a much larger bump, which almost turned into an abscess that would need draining. I had to re-evaluate what I was doing, was subq a good idea, was there something I was doing that caused this? I figured that I had control over the cleanliness of my injection procedure and that I was being slack, and getting slacker over time with it. As soon as I put some real good hygiene practice around it, all swelling/bumps stopped.

 

When I next go back to the TRT phase I will try bigger volumes with less frequency.

• Do only you blast short esters?

No. I'm blasting long esters... mostly because that's all I've got currently. I feel the kick the day of the injection and going into the next... it works fine. I may get some shorter esters to experiment with next year though.

• What good can a 4 cycle do?

I think it can do heaps of good. I can only really maintain the frequency and intensity of my current training for about 4 weeks. I'll be happy come next Thursday when I step on that plane and it comes to an end. I enjoy training all out like this for short periods, rather than, say, an 80% effort for a longer period. I do imagine that you could make great gains if you did 4 weeks on / 4 off over a period of 6 months... but I don't want to go on blast so often. No upside to it for me.

 

Cheers

[ratz99]

4 minutes ago, I Declare War said:

Why subq?
 

I had been doing IM for so many years, just because everyone else did. I was wanting to do TRT because I felt I never came back right after I stopped gear (was off for 2 years straight). Injecting into the muscle is what I hated the most about it so I wanted to avoid that.

 

I just don't get the subq thing. Why do you hate injecting into the muscle? It doesn't hurt if you do it properly. Well I find it doesn't anyway. Perhaps you have other reasons though??

[I Declare War]

18 minutes ago, ratz99 said:

I just don't get the subq thing. Why do you hate injecting into the muscle? It doesn't hurt if you do it properly. Well I find it doesn't anyway. Perhaps you have other reasons though??

 

I prefer the path of least resistance. To me it's easier, it gets the job done - it gets me from A to B.

Also, there being no injection into muscle, means there is no scar tissue build up in the muscle. Over a long time, this will add up.

 

I wanted to find a protocol that I'd be happy with into my 80's or however long I may live for. I can see myself doing this for a long time.

[I Declare War]

4 hours ago, bang_bang said:

Interesting post probably worthy of a seperate discussion. 

 

 

 

Thanks mate. Happy if it's split out. Sorry to derail things a bit!

 

Basically my answer would be Time off = Time on X 2. Stay off for longer than you're on.. :)

[Daz69]

2 hours ago, ratz99 said:

I just don't get the subq thing. Why do you hate injecting into the muscle? It doesn't hurt if you do it properly. Well I find it doesn't anyway. Perhaps you have other reasons though??

 

If volume is kept low subQ is a viable option to IM, there is less vasculature, therefore slower absorption and less aromatisation..

IM gets to be a pain over the years, large volumes, combined with thicker gauge needles, ignorance around injection protocols, produce scar tissue which reduces the number of injection sites... 

[Daz69]

1 hour ago, I Declare War said:

 

Thanks mate. Happy if it's split out. Sorry to derail things a bit!

 

Basically my answer would be Time off = Time on X 2. Stay off for longer than you're on.. :)

 

If only everyone was as sensible and disciplined...

[Daz69]

7 hours ago, bang_bang said:

In your guys experience what's the optimal amount of time off between cycles? I've learnt that going on and off seems to be the best way to progress rather than pushing more and more drugs but where's the sweet spot between not losing too much strength/size and getting a good response when you jump back on? I've accepted my endocrine system is probably shot so that's not a consideration.

 

In answer to the title "Clearing receptors":

 

Some useless information I'm reading at the moment:

 

The half-life of AR without androgen binding is 1 hour, whereas the AR androgen complex extends the half-life to 6 hours.

Androgens slow AR degradation by prolonging nuclear retention.  

 

It appears AR stabilization is dose dependent. The AR is capable of undergoing multiple bouts of recycling between the nucleus and the cytoplasm after ligand binding and dissociation.

 

Upregulation of AR content is affected by other hormone receptor interactions including IGF-I, growth hormone (GH), and triiodothyronine, whereas glucocorticoids and estrogens downregulate AR messenger RNA (mRNA).

 

The AR concentration in skeletal muscle depends on several factors including fiber type, contractile activity (e.g., resistance training), nutritional supplementation, and the concentrations of testosterone.

 

Resistance training upregulates AR content within a few days after a workout. However, the initial response may be downregulation unless nutritional (e.g., protein, carbohydrate) interventions are applied.

 

The regulation of AR mRNA by androgens varies with androgen dose duration and mode of administration.

 

Long-term exposure to high concentrations of androgens may downregulate AR content in some tissues.

 

Although most actions of testosterone are mediated within the cytoplasm via the AR, some studies have suggested that some rapid actions of testosterone (i.e., that take place within seconds or minutes) may be mediated via nongenomic activity.

 

Evidence supporting nongenomic actions has been obtained from studies showing these actions of testosterone to occur despite either cytosolic AR inhibition or administration of a testosterone molecule unable to diffuse across the cell membrane.

 

For example, nongenomic actions of testosterone have been identified to occur in Sertoli cells, hypothalamus, anterior pituitary, prostate, osteoblasts, immune cells, cardiovascular tissues, and skeletal muscle.

 

In skeletal muscle, testosterone administration has been shown to rapidly (within minutes) increase intramuscular calcium and extracellular signal-regulated kinase 1/2 (ERK 1/2) phosphorylation (a class of mitogen-activated protein kinase and an intermediate involved in muscle hypertrophy).

 

Similar intramuscular calcium increases have been reported in cardiac myocytes after testosterone administration.

 

It has been suggested that these nongenomic actions of testosterone may be mediated by a membrane-bound AR (coupled to a G-protein-linked second messenger system) or perhaps by a membrane-bound SHBG receptor for non-free testosterone still bound to SHBG.

 

Kemppainen, JA, Lane, MV, Sar, M, and Wilson, EM. Androgen receptor phosphorylation, turnover, nuclear transport, and transcriptional activation. Specificity for steroids and antihormones. J Biol Chem 267: 968-974, 1992.

 

Roy, AK, Tyagi, RK, Song, CS, Lavrovsky, Y, Ahn, SC, Oh, TS, and Chatterjee, B. Androgen receptor: Structural domains and functional dynamics after ligand-receptor interaction. Ann N Y Acad Sci 949: 44-57, 2001.

 

Bricout, VA, Germain, PS, Serrurier, BD, and Guezennec, CY. Changes in testosterone muscle receptors: Effects of an androgen treatment on physically trained rats. Cell Mo! Biol 40: 291-294, 1994.

[I Declare War]

Learned anything interesting yet Daz69? Can't say I was able to extract anything from all that useless info. :)

[Daz69]

1 hour ago, I Declare War said:

Learned anything interesting yet Daz69? Can't say I was able to extract anything from all that useless info. :)

 

Yes Marty.... Normal rules of receptor mediated drug therapy don't apply when you are an old bastard like me..

[woody]

from my understanding "receptors"are continually dying off and being renewed,if this is so.how does it become resistant to a given dose.??

[Realtalk]

The receptor thing is a myth.  It's testosterone not clenbuterol 

[Daz69]

6 hours ago, woody said:

from my understanding "receptors"are continually dying off and being renewed,if this is so.how does it become resistant to a given dose.??

 

Up or down regulation via gene expression...