Most AAS Users Fail to Recover Natural Test Levels

[Daz69]

A new study highlights just how hard it is for former AAS users to recover natural testosterone levels after they finish using steroids. To be clear, this doesn't really elucidate which compounds are easier or harder on the HPTA - we already know nandrolone is spectacularly hard to recover from, but at least 8 compounds were used by more than 50% of the cohort - just that as a group it's unlikely we'll ever recover to pre-steroid levels or to those comparable with age-matched non-users.

So what help is the study? Well it does give us three things to consider:

(1) prospective new users of AAS should always be made aware that recovery is not a foregone conclusion, and that they may never recover former levels of testosterone

(2) most PCTs are a complete waste of time and money in the long-run, even if they may temporarily boost test levels

(3) taking as many precautions as possible to protect the HPTA (and especially testes) from free-radical damage should be prioritised on cycle (eg. controlling aromatase/oestrogen levels, using supplements like curcumin and taurine).


Former Abusers of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids Exhibit Decreased Testosterone Levels and Hypogonadal Symptoms Years after Cessation: A Case-Control Study.

Rasmussen JJ, Selmer C, Østergren PB, Pedersen KB, Schou M, Gustafsson F, Faber J, Juul A, Kistorp C. (2016).

CONCLUSIONS:

Former AAS abusers exhibited significantly lower plasma testosterone levels and higher frequencies of symptoms suggestive of hypogonadism than healthy control participants years after AAS cessation. Current AAS abusers exhibited severely decreased AMH and inhibin B indicative of impaired spermatogenesis.


The full study is free, so have a browse: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0161208


*PS it's also an interesting snapshot of how steroid preferences have changed over the years. Gone are things like anadrol, instead all the kids are now using trenbolone, masteron and EQ.

[nate225]

I smoked a steroid once, now it's TRT for life......

But seriously a few cycles in for many and that's the reality....

[jimmybro1]

8 minutes ago, nate225 said:

I smoked a steroid once, now it's TRT for life......

But seriously a few cycles in for many and that's the reality....

Team #raisinnuts 

[king]

3 hours ago, Daz69 said:

A new study highlights just how hard it is for former AAS users to recover natural testosterone levels after they finish using steroids. To be clear, this doesn't really elucidate which compounds are easier or harder on the HPTA - we already know nandrolone is spectacularly hard to recover from, but at least 8 compounds were used by more than 50% of the cohort - just that as a group it's unlikely we'll ever recover to pre-steroid levels or to those comparable with age-matched non-users.

So what help is the study? Well it does give us three things to consider:

(1) prospective new users of AAS should always be made aware that recovery is not a foregone conclusion, and that they may never recover former levels of testosterone

(2) most PCTs are a complete waste of time and money in the long-run, even if they may temporarily boost test levels

(3) taking as many precautions as possible to protect the HPTA (and especially testes) from free-radical damage should be prioritised on cycle (eg. controlling aromatase/oestrogen levels, using supplements like curcumin and taurine).


Former Abusers of Anabolic Androgenic Steroids Exhibit Decreased Testosterone Levels and Hypogonadal Symptoms Years after Cessation: A Case-Control Study.

Rasmussen JJ, Selmer C, Østergren PB, Pedersen KB, Schou M, Gustafsson F, Faber J, Juul A, Kistorp C. (2016).

CONCLUSIONS:

Former AAS abusers exhibited significantly lower plasma testosterone levels and higher frequencies of symptoms suggestive of hypogonadism than healthy control participants years after AAS cessation. Current AAS abusers exhibited severely decreased AMH and inhibin B indicative of impaired spermatogenesis.


The full study is free, so have a browse: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0161208


*PS it's also an interesting snapshot of how steroid preferences have changed over the years. Gone are things like anadrol, instead all the kids are now using trenbolone, masteron and EQ.

what are the treatments for this, just TRT? because i wouldn't mind being on TRT when i get old. as you mentioned that tests level decrease as we age. 

[jimmybro1]

The amount of total testosterone dropped a mere 4nmol/L between non-user and ex-user and there was a 3-4 year average difference between the non-users and ex-users which may describe the decline. Also I see LH is greater in ex-users is this because there is positive feedback as testosterone levels aren't sufficient >? 

 

Interesting to see the difference in time spent resistance training users training a lot longer also users and ex-user seem to be less educated and adopt a lot riskier behaviors (smoking/illicit drugs) 

[Terrymundo]

Also notable that all subjects did start recover to a degree. No one had full shutdown. A lot of bro science gets passed around about ex-users never being able to produce any natural test, perhaps it could happen, but it's a small percentage and this study didn't capture anyone with the issue.

[ratz99]

Kinda stupid if you ask me. A sample group of ~90 people all up? 

[Daz69]

4 hours ago, jimmybro1 said:

The amount of total testosterone dropped a mere 4nmol/L between non-user and ex-user and there was a 3-4 year average difference between the non-users and ex-users which may describe the decline. Also I see LH is greater in ex-users is this because there is positive feedback as testosterone levels aren't sufficient >? 

 

Interesting to see the difference in time spent resistance training users training a lot longer also users and ex-user seem to be less educated and adopt a lot riskier behaviors (smoking/illicit drugs) 

 

Generally speaking LH/FSH come back within days of the end of a cycle, making most PCT drugs utterly pointless. The issue seems to be the failure of the message (LH/FSH) to get through to the testes, possibly because of massive leydig cell death, which hCG also doesn't necessarily seem to reverse or prevent. So presumably levels of LH/FSH continue to rise as the hypothalamus senses low hormone levels, thus solving the paradox of heightened levels.

As for SHBG, it's probably an attempt by the body to raise free test. Sometimes you also find, quite ironically, men who come off a long cycle suddenly start to lose their hair. This is speculated to be because enzymatic conversion of circulating test to DHT elevates to compensate for a less androgenic environment.

[ratz99]

18 hours ago, Daz69 said:

 

Generally speaking LH/FSH come back within days of the end of a cycle, making most PCT drugs utterly pointless. The issue seems to be the failure of the message (LH/FSH) to get through to the testes, possibly because of massive leydig cell death, which hCG also doesn't necessarily seem to reverse or prevent. So presumably levels of LH/FSH continue to rise as the hypothalamus senses low hormone levels, thus solving the paradox of heightened levels.

As for SHBG, it's probably an attempt by the body to raise free test. Sometimes you also find, quite ironically, men who come off a long cycle suddenly start to lose their hair. This is speculated to be because enzymatic conversion of circulating test to DHT elevates to compensate for a less androgenic environment.

That's actually interesting. So are you kind of saying the feeling of PCT bringing back natural production is actually something that would happen anyway? Just clarifying. 

Hope I don't lose hair coming off this cycle, doesn't sound like fun times.

[PETN]

if youre worried about natural test production then stay natural. and yes jimmybro id say most people willing to stick a needle in themselves to gain a few hundred grams a year extra muscle would definitely have the disposition to use hard rec drugs if given the chance. One other thing ive noticed is that a higher proportion of the guys on gear ive seen at the gym and on social media seem to be complete fuckwits. Not sure if it's because of the gear or if gear is something that is more attractive to fuckwits. Bit of a chicken or egg thing. Wonder if anyone has done a study on that?

[jimmybro1]

17 minutes ago, PETN said:

if youre worried about natural test production then stay natural. and yes jimmybro id say most people willing to stick a needle in themselves to gain a few hundred grams a year extra muscle would definitely have the disposition to use hard rec drugs if given the chance. One other thing ive noticed is that a higher proportion of the guys on gear ive seen at the gym and on social media seem to be complete fuckwits. Not sure if it's because of the gear or if gear is something that is more attractive to fuckwits. Bit of a chicken or egg thing. Wonder if anyone has done a study on that?

Its the YOLO generation. 

 

Will be followed by infertile generation 

[ratz99]

A few hundred grams extra muscle?  LOL...

[PETN]

2 hours ago, ratz99 said:

A few hundred grams extra muscle?  LOL...

 

Yes, a few hundred grams of extra actual muscle per year compared to someone who is natty for most users.

 

And no, I don't want to hear about how you went from 80kg to 90kg on your first cycle then another 7 or 8kg or whatever on your second. I am talking about users who already actually look like they lift rather than users who could probably still add 5-10kg per year naturally.

[ratz99]

On 8/26/2016 at 9:09 PM, PETN said:

 

Yes, a few hundred grams of extra actual muscle per year compared to someone who is natty for most users.

 

And no, I don't want to hear about how you went from 80kg to 90kg on your first cycle then another 7 or 8kg or whatever on your second. I am talking about users who already actually look like they lift rather than users who could probably still add 5-10kg per year naturally.

Lollll. Sassy.  So you're referring to it being harder and harder to gain muscle for those who are already jacked?  You have any evidence?  Not calling you out. Just interested 

[PETN]

Yeah natty or on gear, you just reach close to an equilibrium where you stay pretty much the same unless you increase training/diet/drugs drastically. Just on gear will be higher bodyweight with more muscle than the natty guy. 

 

A few hundred grams extra a year actual muscle is a lot of difference as most advanced natty guys gain f*ck all.

 

I don't have any studies but it's obvious and is the similar for a lot of things, in terms of the general principle, irrespective of parameters. For example power vs cost of an engine build in your v-tech civic - a lot cheaper to add the first 50kW than the second 50kW lol. Law of diminishing marginal returns.

 

 

[maccaz]

Diminishing returns applies to most things. My strength increase halves year to year I reckon. 

 

Malanichev squatted 400kg 14 years ago and put 5kg on a year on average to squat 470 now. 

 

[ratz99]

11 hours ago, PETN said:

Yeah natty or on gear, you just reach close to an equilibrium where you stay pretty much the same unless you increase training/diet/drugs drastically. Just on gear will be higher bodyweight with more muscle than the natty guy. 

 

A few hundred grams extra a year actual muscle is a lot of difference as most advanced natty guys gain f*ck all.

 

I don't have any studies but it's obvious and is the similar for a lot of things, in terms of the general principle, irrespective of parameters. For example power vs cost of an engine build in your v-tech civic - a lot cheaper to add the first 50kW than the second 50kW lol. Law of diminishing marginal returns.

 

 

Yeah man i get ya. That makes sense. 

 

[slinshady]

I don't understand why people go on and off its so hard on your body the cortisol the estrogen and general stress, imo steroids should always be used with the expectation you will be on for life 

[RandySavage]

3 hours ago, slinshady said:

I don't understand why people go on and off its so hard on your body the cortisol the estrogen and general stress, imo steroids should always be used with the expectation you will be on for life 

 

........................................................................................................................................

[PETN]

9 hours ago, slinshady said:

I don't understand why people go on and off its so hard on your body the cortisol the estrogen and general stress, imo steroids should always be used with the expectation you will be on for life 

 

Agree strongly with this. Chances are either you'll end up staying on anyway eventually or you'll do a half arsed cycle or 2 and then become some non lifting homo in which case you shouldn't have used at all.

[yeelang]

just to be devil's advocate here the study is founded by an Anti-Doping agency,

 

HCG has been shown to not only increase size but also count of leydig cells, so cell death isn't really an issue, however there could be something else going on. 

 

for me personally the bigger detriment of long-term cycles is more mental, the higher level individuals who have success, status in gym. The addictive feelings from where they are at, feelings of importance etc are not maintainable and can really be quite dire once it's time to pay the piper. If your status/success in gym is the biggest factor, motivator in your life and it's more externally driven you are in for a shit time taking steroids, either by what you need to do to keep those feelings, or what happens when it's time to go off... unless you are the 1%

 

 

[HarryB]

59 minutes ago, yeelang said:

just to be devil's advocate here the study is founded by an Anti-Doping agency,

 

HCG has been shown to not only increase size but also count of leydig cells, so cell death isn't really an issue, however there could be something else going on. 

 

for me personally the bigger detriment of long-term cycles is more mental, the higher level individuals who have success, status in gym. The addictive feelings from where they are at, feelings of importance etc are not maintainable and can really be quite dire once it's time to pay the piper. If your status/success in gym is the biggest factor, motivator in your life and it's more externally driven you are in for a shit time taking steroids, either by what you need to do to keep those feelings, or what happens when it's time to go off... unless you are the 1%

 

 

 

Counselling. Get counselling if this is the issue cos your priorities are well off.