Skeletor Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 http://allaboutpowerlifting.com/wilks-formula-wrong-use/ Saw this article this morning and thought it was a pretty good read. Thoughts? Worth a read anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 I commented saying if Greg Nuckols thinks Superheavyweights should be penalised for carrying more bodyfat, then why ignore the elephant in the room of height? A 5'10 guy weighing 120kg gets treated the same as a 6'5 120kg guy. The 6'5 is likely at a big disadvantage on squat and bench. PETN 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realtalk Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Always said formula flawed because of height. It's only fair assuming everyone same height PETN 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Nuckols reply to my comment that a 12% bf 5'10 guy at 120kg is at an advantage to a 12%bf 6'5 guy at 120kg was met with "The 6'5 guy would need to get more jacked to equal the 5'10 guy and would be unlikely to beat him at 120kg." I then said, great so with two equally jacked 5'10 and 6'5 guys, the 6'5 guy is 10-20kg heavier, and thus at a disadvantage on formula. If you're going to take bodyfat percentage into account like these guys are saying, it seems a huge oversight to leave out height. Skeletor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 IPF Under 83kg World Champ, Brett Gibbs comment: Quote I'd like to see the best lifter awards be scraped all together.. Some one said it above. The best lifter is the lifter who lifts the most weight period.They should also scrap individual lift medals Just IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor Posted April 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 I don't think he really had a decent argument to come back at you there Wookie lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD-Strength Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 So Brett Gibbs is saying no weight classes?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 18 minutes ago, JD-Strength said: So Brett Gibbs is saying no weight classes?? No, Brett is saying weight classes are legitimate. Comparing the classes to find an overall winner, he doesn't think is helpful. He's saying the best lifter is the one who lifts the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETN Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Weight classes are a joke. Especially how many there are and having shit like u75 and below. If youre under 75kg chances are you could actually eat more food and put on muscle and get bigger and stronger, which surely would mean you were better at lifting. Ive said it before on here but in most sports to be competitive you have to actually get your bodyweight within a certain range where its advantageous in that sport. If i want to run a marathon at 115kg obviously im at a huge disadvantage to a 65kg guy. Should there be weight classes for that too? Should basketball have height classes? Or if youre 5'2" do you just accept that you have shit genetics to be competitive in that sport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 22 minutes ago, Skeletor said: I don't think he really had a decent argument to come back at you there Wookie lol Hi final rebuttal was basically that sprinters don't get handicapped due to the length of their limbs, even though that's a huge part of performance. I haven't replied, but essentially that's meaningless as there are no formula's due to weight, height, bodyfat or anything in sprinting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundsgood Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Regarding Nuckols example with the bench press only comp its important to realise that Wilks was designed to compare totals not to compare single lifts especially not Benchpress which is generally a much smaller number in comparison to bodyweight. I was interested to see how the Allometric scale would stack up in real world application so I plugged some Kiwi lifter numbers in. Some interesting results 1075kg @ 150 - 49.6AS - 594.8W 900kg @ 115.9 - 49.2AS - 521.91W 800kg @ 99.9 - 48.4AS - 487.04W 800.5kg @ 83kg - 54.7AS - 534.3W Clearly it evens the field up considerably for the middleweight lifters to the point that Brett Gibbs gets wasted on points by Odell in Wilks ends up taking a comfortable lead and I only just pip Tom on AS where as I was ahead of him considerably on Wilks. Skeletor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundsgood Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 8 minutes ago, Wookie said: Hi final rebuttal was basically that sprinters don't get handicapped due to the length of their limbs, even though that's a huge part of performance. I haven't replied, but essentially that's meaningless as there are no formula's due to weight, height, bodyfat or anything in sprinting. Lost it at 'Formula is for babies' hahahaha such a good call Wookie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PETN Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 3 minutes ago, soundsgood said: Regarding Nuckols example with the bench press only comp its important to realise that Wilks was designed to compare totals not to compare single lifts especially not Benchpress which is generally a much smaller number in comparison to bodyweight. I was interested to see how the Allometric scale would stack up in real world application so I plugged some Kiwi lifter numbers in. Some interesting results 1075kg @ 150 - 49.6AS - 594.8W 900kg @ 115.9 - 49.2AS - 521.91W 800kg @ 99.9 - 48.4AS - 487.04W 800.5kg @ 83kg - 54.7AS - 534.3W Clearly it evens the field up considerably for the middleweight lifters to the point that Brett Gibbs gets wasted on points by Odell in Wilks ends up taking a comfortable lead and I only just pip Tom on AS where as I was the runaway leader on Wilks. Do you think someone lifting 800.5kg is a better lifter than someone lifting 1075kg though? I dont. Skeletor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundsgood Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 15 minutes ago, PETN said: Do you think someone lifting 800.5kg is a better lifter than someone lifting 1075kg though? I dont. No of course not. I like Markos's Barweight formula best. Biggest total within your class? You win your class. Biggest total of everyone who lifted on the day? You technically are the strongest lifter there aren't you? But you need something to compare lifters between classes so some kind of formula is required. PETN 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaz Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 agree biggest total your class biggest total on the day unrealistic to compare different weight classes, its never going to be perfect so why bother i was actually thinking about this on the weekend when watching a video of @manlet squat 250kg in sleeves at some light bodyweight thinking fck i wish i was shorter lol as every cm of height is throwing away wilks/gloss points via useless weight of being taller. and im only 5"10 Skeletor and manlet 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realtalk Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Winning your class all that matters really. In an ideal comp having 15 lifters or so in your class you can just focus on lifting more than anyone else and not have to care about what anyone in classes above or below you are doing. Skeletor, bang_bang and PETN 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realtalk Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 At smaller comps then yeah there is a designated formula so you compete against people using that as the measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 @soundsgood Makes a great point about Wilks not being designed for individual lifts, but instead for totals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wookie Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 I'd be very hesistant to compare Gibbs and Odells totals. Compare little apples with big apples, but not apples and oranges, ya know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donz Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Shorter jacked dudes can definitely have an advantage in classes, it's why I looked at guys like Realtalk who are a few inches shorter but carry more lean muscle mass on % than me and figured I should go up a weight class and grow into it. Like Tom says above me - win your class. The most exciting class to watch last pro-raw was the 110s, came down to the final deadlift and the guy who won it pulling a 25? kg PB on it. SHW is the most fun to watch for the biggest numbers and f*ck im fine with them winning on points if they're pulling 1000 vs my say 800, love those big motherfuckers! Biggest total in a comp should win over all, that cunts the strongest dude there, idc if he's 30% fat. Ain't sposed to look ripped. Most of the time I lift is to beat my last numbers anyways - sometimes it's for a cool Ironman figurine trophy but yeah, mostly for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manlet Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 6 hours ago, maccaz said: agree biggest total your class biggest total on the day unrealistic to compare different weight classes, its never going to be perfect so why bother i was actually thinking about this on the weekend when watching a video of @manlet squat 250kg in sleeves at some light bodyweight thinking fck i wish i was shorter lol as every cm of height is throwing away wilks/gloss points via useless weight of being taller. and im only 5"10 Yeah but being allowed on rollercoasters tho... donz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastBuilder Posted April 26, 2016 Report Share Posted April 26, 2016 8 hours ago, Wookie said: I'd be very hesistant to compare Gibbs and Odells totals. Compare little apples with big apples, but not apples and oranges, ya know? Compare Gibbs total to Williams or Vanilla Gorilla then. Still find the bigger dude and bigger total more impressive, even though they're literally double him and only totally like 200-250kg more. Absolute strength is what powerlifting is about imo. Have the biggest total and you're the strongest, end of story, no arguments. Comparing across weight classes is never going to be perfect and everyone loves something to complain about. donz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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