The "cutting cycle" mythology

[nate225]

Putting it out there for discussion, I'm calling bullshit on the "cutting cycle" with regards to AAS. 

I certainly think there's a cutting cycle for ancillary compounds (Clen, T3, HGH, ECA being the usual suspects along with things like DNP & various stims).

I also thinks there's a pre-comp logic to cycles as shows get close (low aromatising AAS tren/mast, fast acting test for easy removal if holding water, nolva/arimedex/letro, the usual orals like winny/anavar, diuretics etc).

Bulking cycles are pretty much powerlifter type choices (e.g. Test base, deca/bold, androgenic oral like dbol/anap).

 

That brings me to the "cutting cycle"? What mythical AAS combination could this be? I've seen guys throw around winny & prop as supposed "cutting agents", I've heard people say drop the test out, or change long esters to prop!!! I've heard tren ace not tren enanthate!! I could go on with these types of gym gems of wisdom but I'm keen to hear from others.

 

So is the "cutting cycle" in relation to AAS compounds a myth? Thoughts. 

[manlet]

Agreed.

 

The most important thing for a "cutting cycle" is estrogen control. Some people use nandrolones while prepping for a show because they know how to manage the aromitization.

 

People also think tren is this wonder drug just melts the fat off you. It isn't. 

[HarryB]

Doesn't it also have something to do with some steroids being less effective on low calorie diets? 

[maccaz]

2 hours ago, manlet said:

Agreed.

 

The most important thing for a "cutting cycle" is estrogen control. Some people use nandrolones while prepping for a show because they know how to manage the aromitization.

 

People also think tren is this wonder drug just melts the fat off you. It isn't. 

What would you recommend for someone planning to do a bit of a recomp/reduce fat when they only use test (up to 750mg at most) and never use an AI ? Change compound ? Add an AI ? 

[bang_bang]

7 minutes ago, maccaz said:

What would you recommend for someone planning to do a bit of a recomp/reduce fat when they only use test (up to 750mg at most) and never use an AI ? Change compound ? Add an AI ?

 

Sort your diet out..

[jimmybro1]

11 minutes ago, maccaz said:

What would you recommend for someone planning to do a bit of a recomp/reduce fat when they only use test (up to 750mg at most) and never use an AI ? Change compound ? Add an AI ? 

Do cardio and stop eating McDs lol

[maccaz]

49 minutes ago, bang_bang said:

 

Sort your diet out..

 

46 minutes ago, jimmybro1 said:

Do cardio and stop eating McDs lol

 

lolol yeah goes without saying. i did partly mean me, but also more generally, surely there is some scientific basis behind why people claim certain drugs for certain purposes, aside from aromatization? 

[jimmybro1]

14 minutes ago, maccaz said:

 

 

lolol yeah goes without saying. i did partly mean me, but also more generally, surely there is some scientific basis behind why people claim certain drugs for certain purposes, aside from aromatization? 

Anecdotal evidence, probably the same reason people think ripped freak or whatever other supplements are on the market get them to be a "sick shredded c*nt" 

 

I've got no idea though. 

[HarryB]

Did you not read what I posted? That's the other reason... God I feel like no one ever listens to me :'( 

[Daz69]

3 hours ago, manlet said:

Agreed.

 

The most important thing for a "cutting cycle" is estrogen control. Some people use nandrolones while prepping for a show because they know how to manage the aromatization.

 

People also think tren is this wonder drug just melts the fat off you. It isn't. 

 

How do you propose to manage aromatisation from nandrolone..? 

 

It has been hypothesised nandrolone activates oestrogen response elements through the AR, possibly due to synthetic metabolites capable of activating oestrogen specific constructs in DNA via 3a-HDS enzyme..

 

The only way to block nandrolones very potent oestrogenic effects is to block the AR, and with it any and all anabolic effect..

 

[nate225]

Harry - from memory and this is pretty ancient so may have been superceded but anavar was the only compound that studies had shown to build muscle on low calorie diet. Anecdotally I'd suggest others probably do too.

 

[HarryB]

I read a study.. tren and masteron also. Not so much stan apparently. Test and deca aren't anywhere near as effective on a low calorie deficit type diet. I'd cite the study but you mofos all have Google :)

 

Didn't read anything about anavar but have heard anecdotally it's awesome while cutting. 

[bang_bang]

You can do a cut on any steroid, I would have thought some would increase your bmr more than others eg tren but I don't know?

 

Some are better suited to cutting because their effects are more pronounced at a lower body fat e.g eq increased vasularity, masteron dryness due to zero aromitism 

[HarryB]

Yes you can indeed. Some are just more effective than others on a calorie deficit. And yeah some increase the "look" of a muscle so are beneficial in that sense. 

[manlet]

2 hours ago, Daz69 said:

 

How do you propose to manage aromatisation from nandrolone..? 

 

It has been hypothesised nandrolone activates oestrogen response elements through the AR, possibly due to synthetic metabolites capable of activating oestrogen specific constructs in DNA via 3a-HDS enzyme..

 

The only way to block nandrolones very potent oestrogenic effects is to block the AR, and with it any and all anabolic effect..

 

 

I'm only talking about managing it. I've never had any hands on experience with nandrolones during a calorie deficit and with any bodybuilding related gear use, all my stories are anecdotal. I recall hearing a couple of dudes using NPP at 200mg pw with adex eod a long with other things and getting in decent condition before switching to more traditional comp prep drugs.

 

If you could link me that study, I'd be pretty interested in reading it.

 

3 hours ago, maccaz said:

What would you recommend for someone planning to do a bit of a recomp/reduce fat when they only use test (up to 750mg at most) and never use an AI ? Change compound ? Add an AI ? 

 

Depends on different things but probably just test, aromasin and something like NPP. Tren is pretty good but it just fucks some people up so pretty cautious with recommending that.

[nate225]

My view on cutting  (versus prepping for walking on stage) is that the gear type doesn't change a lot for an individual.

I havent heard many say im doing a cutting cycle of high test, tren and dbol, but it would definitely ramp metabolism and calorie usage, just water would be quite high (again cutting vs comp prep). 

 

Going off topic a bit I look at things differently now after an ex Olympia competitor talked me through his views. I look at cycles as "androgenic cycles", "anabolic cycles", off or bridging phases, and "comp prep" phases. Off course there's a bit of overlap in these, it's not a precise science, in fact it's a bit more holistic including nutrition, supps, ancillaries and training style during each phase. Was definitely worth shouting a coffee for  ;)

[Daz69]

21 hours ago, nate225 said:

Putting it out there for discussion, I'm calling bullshit on the "cutting cycle" with regards to AAS. 

I certainly think there's a cutting cycle for ancillary compounds (Clen, T3, HGH, ECA being the usual suspects along with things like DNP & various stims).

I also thinks there's a pre-comp logic to cycles as shows get close (low aromatising AAS tren/mast, fast acting test for easy removal if holding water, nolva/arimedex/letro, the usual orals like winny/anavar, diuretics etc).

Bulking cycles are pretty much powerlifter type choices (e.g. Test base, deca/bold, androgenic oral like dbol/anap).

 

That brings me to the "cutting cycle"? What mythical AAS combination could this be? I've seen guys throw around winny & prop as supposed "cutting agents", I've heard people say drop the test out, or change long esters to prop!!! I've heard tren ace not tren enanthate!! I could go on with these types of gym gems of wisdom but I'm keen to hear from others.

 

So is the "cutting cycle" in relation to AAS compounds a myth? Thoughts. 

 

Hi Nate... There's a couple of areas where certain compounds might create differing effects:

 

• Once released into the blood and prone to aromatisation and DHT conversion
• Ligand AR binding efficacy

5a-reduced ie: Reducing the C4-5 double bond, which in turn affects 3-keto group which is responsible for AR binding.. Masteron..

By adding a 1-2 double bond this slows metabolism (hepatic breakdown, aromatisation etc).. Boldenone..

 

The majority of compounds have their effects mediated through genomic AR pathways, any differences would therefore have to be mediated by a differential effect on the AR, but these molecules are pretty small, and don't have the bulk that SARMS have to impact AR folding and co-factor recruitment. The only steroid that has any proof that it affects AR-conformation is Trenbolone, which seems to cause a break in helix-12 that could impact co-factor recruitment..

 

Masteron is pretty useless on its own...

 

Boldenone can create a striated, defined look but requires a Liberal amount of time and dose to achieve desired effect..  

 

Trenbolone in calorie deficit may preserve lean mass via its effects on reduction of endogenous glucocorticoid activity, and suppress amino acid breakdown within the liver.. 

 

All androgens produce secondary effects on lipolysis by binding with AR located in adipose tissue. Essentially the stronger the androgen the higher the affinity binding receptor, this bind will stimulate mobilization of fatty acids, and ultimately oxidation assuming calorie deficit is adhered to. Trenbolone by itself, and combined with estrogen has been shown to reduce subcutaneous fat, intramuscular fat and decrease muscle marbling...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HarryB]

So tren and estrogen would be good for cutting....

[nate225]

So in theory adding a SARM to an AAS cycle could potentially benefit a cut?

Interesting if so, just yesterday I had a guy describe how he got stronger on cycle when he added ostarine to his stack? Related biochemistry?

[nate225]

40 minutes ago, HarryB said:

So tren and estrogen would be good for cutting....

 

Probably been used in cattle for this purpose already, no concern with gyno there! There were (not sure about now) a fair few products for livestock to boost lean muscle gain that contained an androgen along with estrogen. 

[Daz69]

49 minutes ago, HarryB said:

So tren and estrogen would be good for cutting....

 

Trenbolone administered with estradiol suggests that estradiol enhances the anabolic effects of trenbolone. Although the exact means by which estrogenic substances increase lean mass growth is not entirely understood, most believe it involves an indirect action on the pituitary that causes a release of bovine GH and a direct action on skeletal muscle receptors (Preston, 1987). Whereas androgens seem to exert only a direct growth effect on receptor sites in muscle tissues...

 

[HarryB]

That lends weight to something a friend of mine told me almost 20 years ago. He used to bring a shredded 116 to stage at 5'8. He said he made his best lean gains using a vet product called reepair which was a mix of test and estrogen. And he'd add tren. Swore by it. Thanks for the info. 

[kiwicannon]

Damn insightful stuff cheers Gents!

 

Sorry for stupid question here but what do you mean by Tren ,Test and "estrogen"? what estrogen based product are you referring to?

 

 

[nate225]

2 hours ago, HarryB said:

That lends weight to something a friend of mine told me almost 20 years ago. He used to bring a shredded 116 to stage at 5'8. He said he made his best lean gains using a vet product called reepair which was a mix of test and estrogen. And he'd add tren. Swore by it. Thanks for the info. 

 

Tren 20 years ago.....haha your mate was definitely grinding finaplex! Back when test came in 50 & 75mg/ml and guys actually trained to get in shape! To take 2g of test like a lot of guys nowadays you'd have to get 40ml of prop in....I'd love to seem em try that! Was easier to take f*ck all and eat more lol

 

[HarryB]

5 minutes ago, nate225 said:

 

Tren 20 years ago.....haha your mate was definitely grinding finaplex! Back when test came in 50 & 75mg/ml and guys actually trained to get in shape! To take 2g of test like a lot of guys nowadays you'd have to get 40ml of prop in....I'd love to seem em try that! Was easier to take f*ck all and eat more lol

 

 

Actually he was using parabolon. You can't even compare anything I've used since to that. That stuff was actually the bomb. And yeah lol 2gm of test would equal how much of that bladder stuff?