Jump to content
NZ's bodybuilding, strength and fitness community
Sign in to follow this  
cory_huges

Nar Labs debate

Recommended Posts

@Pseudonym Have you tired asking Horleys? (I think they possibly already sponsor this site?) They are having a major overhaul with how they do things but one thing they never and will never relent on is quality, but I think they are getting frustrated with the amount of "shitty" american brands that are out there in the market that just don't match up. No offence to @eLm0 I actually think balance is just as good quality I just know Horleys are somewhat desperate finding ways to compete . Could be a good way for them to gain some of the protein market they have lost in NZ. I know to that at the moment they are throwing more money at the business without knowing exactly where to put it, enter your suggestion for frequent lab test to shine the light on some of these brands. Might not be totally biased but could have as a trade off for sponsorship so they get exposure and you get the money to run and publish the test your self? - Think that alone would be a huge draw to this site. 

Just my 2 cents as im MASSIVELY keen to see this happen! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Skeletor said:

 Where would put Balance on that list? 

 

1 hour ago, mjd243 said:

 No offence to @eLm0 I actually think balance is just as good quality I just know Horleys are somewhat desperate finding ways to compete 

 

Well obviously I would rate balance right up there, but because balance is one of the brands of the company I work for I guess my opinion is strongly biased.

HOWEVER I am also strongly biased because I know the facilities, quality standards and testing we put everything through that makes it this way.

 

I've posted this up before but this video might give you an insight:

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I Strongly rate Balance, product range would be amongst the highest quality in the world.

 

1 hour ago, eLm0 said:

 

I've posted this up before but this video might give you an insight:

 

 

 

 

 

Your nutritionist states it's important for anyone active to have quality protein sources before, during and after training. 

 

I assume she's referring to BCAAs when she talks about 'during' 

 

From your scientific point of view and also your research into training pov how useful are BCAAs really if you are getting adequate pre and post protein intake if you are just a general gym goer IE 60-120 min workout with weights and cardio 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Skeletor said:

What sort of cost is involved ? Obviously you need to be supplied protein to test but as far as testing goes?    

We'd buy the products as an ordinary retail customer, and pass them straight to the lab for testing. Amit's test was $550 for one batch, and I think the quotes I got last year were roughly in line with that. More expensive if you're testing aminos, which I'd really like to do. Then there's the web development to set up a framework to display the results.

 

I haven't done the maths yet, but I think you'd probably be looking at around $10k to set up and run the first test of half a dozen products. So it's not cheap if I'm paying for it personally. But the ongoing cost will be less, and for a big sponsor it's quite manageable (particularly when compared to the $20k cost of one full page ad in the paper).

 

At the moment I'm leaning towards using crowd funding to get it off the ground and demonstrate the amount of public interest, then a sponsor to carry it forward.

 

5 hours ago, mjd243 said:

@Pseudonym Have you tired asking Horleys?

I did mention this to Horleys last year, just as a heads up. They've since changed marketing managers, but you're right - they would love to see this happen. In fact, they offered me the use of their facilities to prep samples to send to the lab.

 

But I don't think it's right to have anyone with a vested interest in the supplement industry (whether manufacturer or retailer) to be a sponsor of this section. Not that I think Horleys would ever try to influence the results - but this needs to be unquestionably neutral on every level.

 

14 hours ago, Bruce Al said:

Gymnation  protein powder

Hah. Don't think so. The supplements game is a whole different game to the one I play, and I'm very happy to keep it that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, soundsgood said:

 

I Strongly rate Balance, product range would be amongst the highest quality in the world.

 

 

Your nutritionist states it's important for anyone active to have quality protein sources before, during and after training. 

 

I assume she's referring to BCAAs when she talks about 'during' 

 

From your scientific point of view and also your research into training pov how useful are BCAAs really if you are getting adequate pre and post protein intake if you are just a general gym goer IE 60-120 min workout with weights and cardio 

 

Studies on BCAA supps have shown that they can improve exercise performance, reduce muscle soreness and have anti fatigue and as a result possible fat loss effects. However these results seem to be more pronounced in less trained individuals.

Vs Whey, a direct study has shown greater fat loss and muscle gain  (but this was BCAA + Glutamine + Citrulline) and this was also in trained athletes.

 

BCAAs aren't meant to be a substitute for whole protein sources but another thing to consider is that the equivalent serving of BCAAs is much less calories than a serve of any whole protein source and much easier to down during a workout.

Another thing to consider is that you may need more B vitamins because Bs are consumed during amino metabolism.

 

I take a serve before and during exercise

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These guys https://labdoor.com/

Set up an account to get full results. Even Opti 100% whey doesn't stack up too well

  • Total protein was measured at 74.1g per 100g of product. A 28.4g serving will yield 21g protein, 12.4% below its label claim.

 

It would be impossible to do it in NZ without facing legal action and/or having your own shit dragged out of the closet. Many manufacturers test products however can't release results as most of the time their own shits stinks as bad as the rest of them.

 

I would hope Amit "independently " tests his own product range and the ingredients that go into it as no doubt Moe will be doing it for him. . No doubt it's a contract manufacturer doing it (as with majority of supps nowadays) - you never know what factory in china the raw materials are coming from and I for one wouldn't be relying on the end results assay that the contractor provides. They may give you an assay as to what the product is supposed to be however unless you test it when it land in NZ and then again after it is processed you can't claim jack. And you'd need to test a random selection of every batch, from the beginning, middle, and end of the production line.

 

You really need to cover your arse and make sure your integrity passes into every product and not just test a product just because you have a grudge. Case in point, Giant sports is constantly having label issues, if you feel strongly about selling products that meet label you sure as shit wouldn't carry that range.

--------------

 

Giant Sports Delicious Protein recorded 39.9g of bound protein per 100g of product and totaled 14.4g of protein per serving.

  • Total fat was measured at 2.2g/serving, 21.2% over its 1.8g label claim.
  • Total cholesterol was measured at 9.7mg/serving, 25.2% below its 13mg label claim.
  • Total sodium was measured at 272.9mg/serving, 37.8% over its 198mg label claim.
  • Total calcium was measured at 139.3mg/serving, 184.3% over its 49mg label claim.
  • Total sugar was measured at 2.5g/serving, 153.0% over its 1g label claim.
  • Total protein was measured at 39.9g per 100g of product. A 36g serving will yield 14.4g protein, 46.8% below its label claim.
  • This product recorded 27.9g of free amino acids (per 100g), most notably 8.9g of cysteine. These values indicate a high concern of amino acid spiking.

https://labdoor.com/report/giant-sports-delicious-protein#_=_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

 

I did mention this to Horleys last year, just as a heads up. They've since changed marketing managers, but you're right - they would love to see this happen. In fact, they offered me the use of their facilities to prep samples to send to the lab.

 

 

Haha they've been there and done that, samples of competitors products purchased in store for testing maybe 4 or 5 years ago. Unfortunately I think it became a mexican standoff with some of their own products not quite cutting the mustard so they shelved it.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Flex said:

It would be impossible to do it in NZ without facing legal action and/or having your own shit dragged out of the closet.

On what grounds could there be legal action, Flex? Surely if we only report the test findings, and we make it clear that these findings are based on one particular batch, and we don't infer anything else about the quality of the product... then we're perfectly safe? It's not defamatory if it's true.

 

I agree that for most companies, it would be an invitation to have their own shit dragged out of the closet - but we're in the unique position of having no closet in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who owns Narlabs now? We have ASN who dominate the supplement store industry over here and they have their own branded line they sell which is pretty average in quality. They sell all the brands though but push their own. So it's more buyer be aware than anything else. It's unscrupulous to sell shitty quality product for sure but that's why it's cheaper. Or is Narlabs not cheap? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think narlabs is quite expensive harry although I havent bought it myself. Ask TLAF though as he must have bought a lot of it, im assuming, the way he used to go on about how it was the best and recommending it to everyone on here a couple of years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you prove it's true and completely independent? What integrity and reputation do you have to back up that results and ensure you haven't tainted the product and/or modified it / and used a completely independent test that can stand up to rigorous analysis.

 

You need some form of expertise behind you that can provide authority

 

These guys do it in the USA https://www.consumerlab.com/results/index.asp

and even then the manufacturers bitch and moan about how the testing wasn't done correctly.

 

And then you gotta ask yourself - what difference will it make?

• People still use Gaspari products even though the majority of their products have been pulled for being tainted,

• people still use Giant Protein even with results above, 

• people still use Quest bars even though they got pinged for not meeting label claim (hence new formula).

• People still buy Oxyelite protein even after people were hospitalised after using it.

• People kept on buying dymatize elite even after shown to not meet label claim.

• People went mental for Gaspari detonate and sales went through the roof after it was revealed it contained amphetamine analogues and was illegal worldwide.

• BSN made Creatine Ethyl ester popular - eventually everyone discovered all it did was convert to creatinine and yet it went on and on for years.

• Krealkalyn better than creatine mono - please, ask me another one and yet people still sell it and want to use it. It's creatine mono and sodium bicarb in a capsule, sells for 5x the price.

• MuscleMarketing Creatine Serum - everyone knew it was junk, yet people raved on about how fantastic it was.

The only thing fantastic about it was turning $5 worth of creatine into a $100 sale. Good thing it turned out to be spiked with DHEA so at least you were getting something to go with your creatinine infused juice.

• Inner Armour got their arse handed to them them on a plate over protein spiking yet their products keep on coming and NZ got landed with all the stuff they couldn't sell in the USA.

Protein spiking has been public knowledge for the last 2 years yet it's still going on. We still sell the shit and people keep eating it.

 

So do you think testing is really going to make a difference?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Psuedo you have sponsors, NZprotein, Horleys and NZMuscle etc- you couldn't maintain those and be independent at the same time. You can't be affiliated without endorsing them. Would you release horleys test results if it meant you would lose advertising?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a list of tainted supps by the FDA:

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/sda/sdNavigation.cfm?sd=tainted_supplements_cder&displayAll=true

 

This is only a fraction of recalls/bans. Many test boosters were just viagra, fat burners were sibutramine.

 

Manufacturers in Australia, NZ (and even Canada) have strict regulations, audits and restrictions that often limit what we can put in and what we can say but at the end of the day it is the consumer who benefits with safe and efficacious products.

 

Buuut I'm sure there are some cowboys even in this part of the world who will push the limits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, eLm0 said:

Here's a list of tainted supps by the FDA:

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/sda/sdNavigation.cfm?sd=tainted_supplements_cder&displayAll=true

 

This is only a fraction of recalls/bans. Many test boosters were just viagra, fat burners were sibutramine.

 

Manufacturers in Australia, NZ (and even Canada) have strict regulations, audits and restrictions that often limit what we can put in and what we can say but at the end of the day it is the consumer who benefits with safe and efficacious products.

 

Buuut I'm sure there are some cowboys even in this part of the world who will push the limits.

Regs don't stop NZ, Canada or Australian manufacturers from putting dodgy stuff in their supps. Regulations don't make safe products, they have regulations in the USA hence why the FDA closes down manufacturers however that doesn't mean they're safe. Half the stuff made in NZ is using raw materials coming out of chinese factories - the same stuff that the US companies are using, most of these products wouldn't be tested for actual active/non active ingredients. Who knows what's going into making the amino acids, chinese creatines, carbohydrate powders or tabletting aids that get used here? Which NZ company is auditing the offshore raw materials factories? I'd like to see some photo's of local manufacturers visiting the factories that their sourcing their products from. Scivation did it and it wasn't pretty as shown in the attached photo. Loads of protein brands have popped up over the last few years that  just contract out manufacture and trust that the contractor is doing a decent job and then relying on that contractors audit  - they could be cutting down the supps with any old crapola, or selling a WPI that's actually a WPC because they've run out of WPI (or so the story goes).

 

image1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey @Flex I will start by saying I in no way rate Oxyelite protein at all and would stay away from that brand forever but it wasn't there protein that hospitalized people it was the fat burner.  The detonate had ingredients that basically look like your on amphetamines but then coca cola makes you look like your on heroin. (if we were to look at the brain) and not to say that either of those are right its just hard to be harsh on one thing when the other is such a normal part of society. 

Mostly im just curious how you know Horleys products didn't stack up when tested?...
The rest of the stuff you have said is not surprising one bit.  Legally in the states your label can be off by up to 12%. Creatine Serum and
Krealkalyn were total scams. 

I have seen two test done on Delicious protein that said otherwise to that link you put up. One on email and a physical copy also - Both were independent labs which just makes it harder to know what to trust. First time I have heard of it having high cysteine. But have heard people say it has 14g of taurine before. 

 

do you have a website or two you could share with me for info on a lot of this stuff you have been talking about? - for my benefit because think this stuff is important to know so always looking for new avenues of information. 


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Flex said:

Regs don't stop NZ, Canada or Australian manufacturers from putting dodgy stuff in their supps. Regulations don't make safe products, they have regulations in the USA hence why the FDA closes down manufacturers however that doesn't mean they're safe. Half the stuff made in NZ is using raw materials coming out of chinese factories - the same stuff that the US companies are using, most of these products wouldn't be tested for actual active/non active ingredients. Who knows what's going into making the amino acids, chinese creatines, carbohydrate powders or tabletting aids that get used here? Which NZ company is auditing the offshore raw materials factories? I'd like to see some photo's of local manufacturers visiting the factories that their sourcing their products from. Scivation did it and it wasn't pretty as shown in the attached photo. Loads of protein brands have popped up over the last few years that  just contract out manufacture and trust that the contractor is doing a decent job and then relying on that contractors audit  - they could be cutting down the supps with any old crapola, or selling a WPI that's actually a WPC because they've run out of WPI (or so the story goes).

 

 

The TGA (Aus) has a reputation for being amongst the strictest regulatory bodies in the world. Auditing raw materials and their manufacturers is one of the biggest parts of the development process.

Medsafe and the TGA don't have the same 'pics or it didn't happen' view but subject manufacturers to inspections and audits very often.

Luckily, I do have some pics. Check out the video on this page for some more of the facilities used at balance (and our other brands):

http://www.vitaco.co.nz/contract-manufacturing

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Havent watched those videos elmo, but from my experience in several different industries Ive noticed know that what goes on 'when no one is watching' is very different to what goes on when someone who might give a f*ck is around and a totally different picture again when someone is filming something that a 3rd party or public will see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, mjd243 said:

Hey @Flex I will start by saying I in no way rate Oxyelite protein at all and would stay away from that brand forever but it wasn't there protein that hospitalized people it was the fat burner.  The detonate had ingredients that basically look like your on amphetamines but then coca cola makes you look like your on heroin. (if we were to look at the brain) and not to say that either of those are right its just hard to be harsh on one thing when the other is such a normal part of society. 

Mostly im just curious how you know Horleys products didn't stack up when tested?...
The rest of the stuff you have said is not surprising one bit.  Legally in the states your label can be off by up to 12%. Creatine Serum and
Krealkalyn were total scams. 

I have seen two test done on Delicious protein that said otherwise to that link you put up. One on email and a physical copy also - Both were independent labs which just makes it harder to know what to trust. First time I have heard of it having high cysteine. But have heard people say it has 14g of taurine before. 

 

do you have a website or two you could share with me for info on a lot of this stuff you have been talking about? - for my benefit because think this stuff is important to know so always looking for new avenues of information. 


 

As far as I can remember Horleys wanted to test a US made brand, I think it was EAS (First Nutrition). The horleys guy that purchased samples instore grabbed a few things. I'm pretty sure it all went pearshaped as  the other company (EAS?) ended up testing something from Horleys that didn't stack up (might have been the original Carbless bars) - Myer from FirstNut (xplosiv now) would know if it was between those two or not. We're talking a fair wee while back now, however we did have the same guy instore a few times of the years buying samples to test.

The Delicious test that showed it was full of shit was done by Flush Fitness (Ozzy distributors of Giant). That test was months after all the shit went down in the USA so no doubt after the product got fixed and new batches came out. However that original test showed it as of only 12grams protein. The latest test by labdoor shows 14grams on the reformulated product so a slight improvement yet they are different tests by different companies.

 

Most websites with good info get shut down,  searching for anything by Patrick Arnold can be a good start and he sometimes has some good stuff on the thermolife forum, generally if someone gets banned from BB.com forums they are good ones to seek out on other websites.  Otherwise priceplow, and consumerlab are pretty good.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, eLm0 said:

 

The TGA (Aus) has a reputation for being amongst the strictest regulatory bodies in the world. Auditing raw materials and their manufacturers is one of the biggest parts of the development process.

Medsafe and the TGA don't have the same 'pics or it didn't happen' view but subject manufacturers to inspections and audits very often.

Luckily, I do have some pics. Check out the video on this page for some more of the facilities used at balance (and our other brands):

http://www.vitaco.co.nz/contract-manufacturing

 

 

Look I've got no doubts Vitaco make good products, however I'm not talking about a video of your end of line production, I'm talking about the start of manufacture. Is there a video of the plants in China that you source materials from? What do visual inspections of a manufacturing plant here in NZ tell the TGA or Medsafe about what's actually in the product on the shelf in a retail store?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Skeletor said:

Shit I used those Gaspari halodrols and novadex.  When they say hidden ingredient = steroid what exactly is the steroid?

 

Halodrol was actually just a pro hormone which in itself is just an oral steroid.  

 

You were literally using OTC steroids (purchased legally).

 

Time to hand in your natty card by accident sorry bro 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, soundsgood said:

 

Halodrol was actually just a pro hormone which in itself is just an oral steroid.  

 

You were literally using OTC steroids (purchased legally).

 

Time to hand in your natty card by accident sorry bro 

LOL damn.  Changing profile to enhanced lifter now.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  



×