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Cam0505

Tertiary Education Outdated?

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Thought you guys mite be interested in this, may you have a kids, your thinking of going to University or already there. 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/thecollegebubble/2014/05/21/do-the-math-how-opportunity-costs-multiply-tuition/#3950c5eb7970

 

Stefan does a great analysis on the subject to (I don't agree with everything he makes videos about, however he is correct most of the time)

 

 

 

Also Engineered Truth has made some fantastic videos on the subject. One of which is: 

 

 

 

 

I say this as someone who recently finished their undergraduate (after being told by the Navy Psychologist that it was a black mark not having it completed). Last week I un-enrolled from my Postgraduate course when I saw that what was being taught is far from justified by the cost. I then attended one of my lectures in a political science/labour studies course (elective paper) and the lecturer was quoting the "Communist Manifesto" by Karl Marx. I challenged the lecturer on his views of capitalism (using examples like Hong Kong, South Korea, Chile, etc) compared to socialist or communist countries, provided statistics, research on the minimum wage etc and the lecturers response was that because I don't know what he does that I am incorrect.... (basically because I disagree I am incorrect). He then went on to talk about economic determinism and the idea that everyone is society is fundamentally equal therefore any income disparity between people is the result of exploitation of others (advocating for communism/socialism). At this point I knew that this course and all of University had become a safe house for leftist/morons and those who aren't willing to question reality. 

 

It is not just political science, this type of bullshit is pushed all over University in numerous courses from Science to Management and almost everything in the middle. I am not saying University is pointless but I would think very carefully about enrolling. I wish I had taken the opportunities offered to me after my first year to become a manager for a company I worked for part time. 

 

Now to find a job, look forward to reading your responses. 

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Well obviously if you were taking a paper in the liberal arts, chances are you are most likely going to have a liberal professor. No surprises there. 

If you are going to take a course in liberal arts, and then go on to say uni is becoming redundant, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, since you are adding to the problem by doing a liberal major and providing fees etc to the course.

 

Uni still has plenty of other practical courses you can do like health sciences surveying dentistry engineering etc.

 

I haven't noticed any liberal bias thus far in otago. I think in nz the liberals are confined to the humanities, which you don't have to take if you don't want to. 

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not sure if on topic or not as above posts went way over my head lol but i think uni in a lot of cases is unnecessary and a waste of money.

 

if there is a field/career you want to do that needs a degree, then thats fair enough, im talking medicine, law, vet, dentist, some types of engineer, whatever but a lot of very good jobs don't require degree level qualification.

 

i know so many people that have finished their BA in various pointless majors and are strugglign to find work. I think it is ridiculous that they should be suprised at that fact. sure, study english or history or whatever if you are passionate about it, but dont expect to find a job relevant to your degree.

 

i did the first 2 years of law (so i suppose im 50% lawyer? lol not srs) before i stopped trying to tell myself that i dont hate it, got a job and worked hard as possible to move up and did so pretty quickly (not everyone so lucky)

 

i find my job more exciting than what my lawyer friends do, pays much better, and has more future potential. i regret getting a student loan and moreso i regret wasting the time studying.

 

 

 

cliff notes: in my opinion dont expect to do a BA and get a good job in your field. only go to uni if you need to, to do the job you want. uni should not be a rite of passage in this day and age, its a trap.

If you want to succeed, and feel like you must do tertiary study, make it as specialised as possible and targeted at a future job, dont just start a degree while deciding what you want to do.

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A degree goes a long way in terms of credibility. Whilst in terms of application it might be as good as useless it does add cred so it's a worthwhile pursuit. The thing to remember is that what you study in uni doesn't have to have to any relationship to what you pursue as a career however having a degree stills holds credibility in the business world. Otherwise all the chat room and chat room experts would be raking it in as consultants...... oh wait in the fitness industry that actually happens. Truth is a degree doesn't mean as much as actual applied success :) especially in our industry. I am of course speaking of the fitness industry. Is there a degree in taking steroids? Ha ha ha 

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I did a job for a vet(who was total milf and had 2 bangin daughters) and she was like 'did you know that tradesmen are making more money than professionals' And i was like 'whats a professional?' and she was like ' someone with a degree'  so i lol'd

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My gf recently completed a sport/exercise science and business conjoint degree. Hasn't found a job yet and when she does it'll likely be around 40k starting salary.. I wouldn't get out of bed for that. Plus she has a 50k student loan and still asks me to write her training programs/ do her diet for her so f*ck knows what she actually learnt lol. 

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Sorry about the rushed nature of my post, the librarian was screaming at me that the library was about to close. 

 

Firstly, My degree was not in liberal arts the paper was an elective as I have an interest in political science from having reading  the work of Karl Marx, Milton Friedman, and many others. I have been a huge fan of Ron Paul and his son for a long time so I wanted to see what was being taught in those classes, and as you can probably tell I was quite shocked at the amount of bullshit being spread. If you want to learn more go to http://fee.org/  you'll undoubtedly learn more then you will in most public/social policy courses. 

 

Secondly, It's not just the liberal arts that have this problem. Science has a growing number of fields that are entirely research based (with very feel job opportunities) which are at least partly funded by student enrollments. Science also has this insane obsession with climate change which is a complete joke (for more info watch some of the videos here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAR0Oi4L0Om4F26uwpANgCg). Business degrees are becoming increasingly political correct with this idea of "ethnic diversity improves businesses" (utter bullshit) or "gender pay gap" myths. The average graduate now spends less time studying/learning then they did 20-30years ago and universities are selling their degrees as requirements. Most economics majors work as analysts (soul destroying job to be honest) or for the government as economist (EXTREMELY competitive and ultimately a waste as they fail to predict jack shit most of the time). Sure Accounting is still useful, however most accounting skills can be learnt a HELL OF A LOT faster then by taking a 3-4year course. Next we have physical education and sports, this is a complete joke. Sure they learn some useful information about physiological processes, kinesiology and some basic principles of training, but how useful are these in society? How many new graduates do you see using principles like linear periodization , focusing on the primary lifts for the general population (squat, deadlift, and pullups or shoulder press. Yes I am not including bench press as for the general population it is a lot less useful please don't start debating this here). Engineering is struggling to prepare their graduates for the work force (go and ask any experienced engineer who hires graduates), I have spoken to lab tech's and professors at the Canterbury, Waikato, and Massey engineering departments and they all agree that far fewer graduates can even pick up basic tools, let alone know how to use them. There is a surge of students enrolling in engineering, forcing universities to lower standards (as government wants more graduates, not realizing that allowing less intelligent individuals into such a course will result in unprepared graduates). Law is the same as engineering, so many students, very few should actually be applying/studying law. To be successful (career wise) requires a serious commitment, above average intelligence and a nature interest in the subject.  

 

Thirdly, Grades no longer reflect intelligence, hard work, or even suitability for a course. they are increasingly becoming a mark of a students ability to copy what has been told to them and repeat it back (either word for word in an exam/test or reconstructed with the exact same meaning during a lab report, essay etc). Basically you are testing for rope learning and their grasp of the English language (sometimes, not always). So many students with considerable ability/intelligence under achieve because they are bored, un/under stimulated, and don't enjoy the pointless university systems (to many to cover here without writing an essay but for example the moronic  "elective system" is a complete waste of time and money). 

 

" Is there a degree in taking steroids? " Haha! Yes, its called the Youtube fitness community and if you can con enough morons you can earn some serious $$$. 

 

Anyway I will reply to the rest of the comments later as I have to send a few emails and make a few phone calls about training in something worth while. I am considering getting into rigging, lighting tech and staging for tour companies as when I worked on a few sets as a student It was the most fun I have had in a long time. That or learn to fix dryers/washing machines and get my folks or a friends folks to start up a laundromat ($)_($).

 

Also, I am not saying i regret University entirely, It taught me to think critically for myself and to evaluate information (which grew into a passion for reading economic/political/strategic management/marketing books). Unfortunately  a lot of students leaving University lack these skills and instead leave with a belief that the world is sexiest/racist/environmental  unsafe, etc lol. Employers should take advantage of this with the use of automated progress reports, achievements, etc (read Loyalty 3.0 or the Gamification revolution for more info. Very interesting)

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good to see a like minded individual Cam0505.

 

(although I think ron paul is full of shit as is stefan)

 

Do you think there will ever be a significant counter revolution that brings an end or atleast challenges the growing liberal progressive trend? Or do you think that its time to just accept the way society is headed and move on?

 

I see signs of many people, especially youth, that are sick of what liberalism has become and are turning to conservatism. This is also happening in Europe and to a lesser degree America, with nationalistic politics taking the center stage as a response to the refugee crisis / growing pussification of the EU.

 

These nationalists would be considered fringe groups just 5 years ago for sure.

 

For the sake of not stiring up shit, Im staying neutral in this discussion. Id be very interested to observe what happens to europe in the next 5 years.

 

Again, im 'neutral' in this.

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Education is the most powerful tool in the world, formalization of education through established tertiary education providers allows society to move forward. 

If you think Universities are about teaching you are incorrect. Universities are about research (and are ranked according to this) and research itself is the most important tool in society for progress. Universities are more about developing an understanding of concepts, critical thinking and evaluation of evidence  as mentioned - which if progressing into the research world are necessary tools to be armed with.

Higher education generates broader economic growth as well as personal success and is a tool that empowers individuals to do push the limits of current knowledge allowing discovery.

I'm not saying you have to go to uni to get rich. That's ridiculous. Many of my friends who have never been to uni earn more than me. Going to university is not about earning the most money (although it is strongly correlated with earning more) - Many jobs on this planet which allow you to live the life you live are impossible without a University education - Doctors, Vets, Dentists, Nurses, Pharmacists, Physicists, Economists, Accountants, Architects, Lawyers, Engineers just off the top of my head.

 

Undergrad degrees for students going to uni for the sake of going to uni or pleasing their parents are literally pointless and worth less than the paper they are printed on.

 

On 3/6/2016 at 1:01 PM, Cam0505 said:

. Science also has this insane obsession with climate change which is a complete joke (for more info watch some of the videos here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAR0Oi4L0Om4F26uwpANgCg).

Climate change is literally the most important thing in the world right now. Thankfully the scientists of this world don't take their advice from economics/political science/marketing majors and youtube videos....

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drop the liberal buzzwords of "social progress" and "moving forward". Just let the world and its systems take care of itself lol. We are doing fine.

 

We arent on some kind of "revolutionary breakthrough" in history where we are in desperate need of "young minds" with a "unique" perspective on the world.

 

We simply need a young reliable labour force that can replace older generations and that can participate in the free market and meet the demands of the economy as and when the need arises, by providing their labour etc.

 

Obviously scientific research conducted at universities and elsewhere will provide useful information that can be used to improve peoples lives etc. That is a given, and it has been happening for hundreds of years.

99% of people need not concern themselves with this, since actual real scientific research (not sociology and humanities) happens passivley, and people who want to can choose a career in this based on personal interest and economic demand.

 

Now, about climate change.

 

2 hours ago, eLm0 said:

 

Climate change is literally the most important thing in the world right now. Thankfully the scientists of this world don't take their advice from economics/political science/marketing majors and youtube videos....

 

 

Climate change is probably real.

 

But the fact that scientists dont take advice from economists like you said, makes me want to punch them in their idealistic socialist faces.

It is a proven fact that the realm of academia has a very strong liberal bias; Sometimes people can be fired for expressing conservative views, or not be addmitted into an institution, or have their work ignored / discredited/ not published.

In addition, they are forced to incorporate aspects of progressive politics and ideology into the workforce as well as the papers they publish. Many academic institutions have their workforce structured by demographic quotas, not merit alone. There are also strong aspects of feminism etc.

For example, richard dawkins was accused of assaulting a female colleague for offering her a coffee.

 

The job of a scientist is to simply present the facts, not try and push their agenda on society (like the liberal silicon valley tech companies do).

 

Scientists proved (debatable) that anthropogenic global warming was a fact.

 

Thats their job done. Now they can fk off back to the lab.

 

example of scientists pushing liberal agenda (one of many).

 

1) prove global warming is real (their job)

2) people own property, including private transport, and this private ownership = freedom / free market

3) In order to reduce emmissions from cars / improve consumer conveinence, scientsts invented driverless cars (their job)

4) If driverless cars are implemented, it will be in the form of a publically owned network (like pods) = socialism

5) Scientists want the government to combine public driverless cars with a 100% solar / wind powered economy, bringing an end to private car ownership and the freedom to burn fossil fuels (liberal agenda achieved).

 

 

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10 hours ago, GyzzBrah said:

We are doing fine.

 

We arent on some kind of "revolutionary breakthrough" in history where we are in desperate need of "young minds" with a "unique" perspective on the world.

 

We simply need a young reliable labour force that can replace older generations and that can participate in the free market and meet the demands of the economy as and when the need arises, by providing their labour etc.

 

LMAO... wow dude. Luddite mentalities like this are exactly what stands in the way of my favourite buzzword - progress.

I'm sure the world was "fine" in 1972 too, but fortunately since then we have had advances in science and technology that allows us to have this very debate on the internet, on a computer/smartphone, whilst living healthy lives through inventions like MRIs and modern pharmaceuticals.

 

Higher education is often the difference between living a menial life and progressing towards a better quality society. Living in Australia/NZ, because of the narrow disparity between rich and poor and the ability to live very comfortably off menial (albeit still important) jobs might make it hard to grasp the power of education. Whereas in countries where inequality is rife and menial jobs are taken up by the impoverished working class, education is the only thing that empowers you to live a prosperous life.

 

Lol why the hate for driver-less cars? Uber drivers got too good banter?

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1 hour ago, eLm0 said:

 

LMAO... wow dude. Luddite mentalities like this are exactly what stands in the way of my favourite buzzword - progress.

I'm sure the world was "fine" in 1972 too, but fortunately since then we have had advances in science and technology that allows us to have this very debate on the internet, on a computer/smartphone, whilst living healthy lives through inventions like MRIs and modern pharmaceuticals.

 

Higher education is often the difference between living a menial life and progressing towards a better quality society. Living in Australia/NZ, because of the narrow disparity between rich and poor and the ability to live very comfortably off menial (albeit still important) jobs might make it hard to grasp the power of education. Whereas in countries where inequality is rife and menial jobs are taken up by the impoverished working class, education is the only thing that empowers you to live a prosperous life.

 

Lol why the hate for driver-less cars? Uber drivers got too good banter?

I agree with everything you said. But scientific progress is a societal constant, provided we live in a free economy.

 

My problem is with the politically charged oxymoron labels used by the left.

The dictionary definition of "progressivism" indicates a positive movement to improve society through development in science and social cooperation. 

Everyone would consider themselves a progressive if that was true. 

In reality, progressivism as seen in Europe and now America is a fucking cancer that is destroying western civilization. 

 

Now you might think that is harsh criticism. Until you realize that progressivs openly disavow the west and blatantly state that this is their aim.

 

You of all people should be a conservative. Don't you feel that you should be able to participate in academia and research in peace, and not have to concern yourself with social justice during work hours?

 

My hate for driverless cars is that since it is logistical impossible for them to be used as private transport, they will have to be integrated into publically owned network grid, eventually phasing out privately owned petroleum cars.

This might seem like one of the unfortunate limitations in the development of driverless cars. But its not. The tech companies are fully aware of this limitation, and see it as a crucial step in creating a socialist green energy sharing economy with the removal of private ownership of resources. 

 

This is the reason I want a seperation of science and politics, so that useful inventions can be introduced into the private economy, and unfeasible technologies get scrapped due to no market demand. 

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Cam0505 said:

Wow well lets start with the environment argument. If you would like to debate the facts when it comes to humans impact on the climate please make another forum and I will gladly prove that humans are not to blame.

 

Sure... Start a thread buddy. I'll more than happily obliterate any pseudoscientific argument you have against climate change. If you think fancy graphs in a youtube video are considered evidence you are wildly mistaken

 

 

59 minutes ago, Cam0505 said:

On University, may I ask what you study, what experience you have at University and where you get your ideas from? 

 

Below is a report done on future skill shortages by the immigration department: 

 

http://skillshortages.immigration.govt.nz/assets/uploads/long-term-skill-shortage-list-2015-03-30-.pdf

 

Below is a report done by the Hamilton Report (not NZ, its based on American graduates, however when you compare the figures they are proportionately very accurate. 

 

http://www.hamiltonproject.org/papers/major_decisions_what_graduates_earn_over_their_lifetimes/

 

 

 

Whether I went to university or not is as irrelevant to this argument as a skill shortage report is to the value of tertiary education. For example you wouldn't want a jury to favour a lawyer just because he went to harvard over one who scraped past the bar with a simple LLB.

One does not need to have attended university to appreciate the importance of tertiary education's contribution to society. An immigration skill shortage report does not represent job opportunities nor the influence of education, this is from NZ immigration on what the report means:


"Identifying which occupations should be added or removed from this list is not a straightforward task.  Objective data on the supply  and demand for different skill sets is typically incomplete. An alternative is to canvas perspectives from interested parties. Unfortunately sector interests can distort the reliability of subjective information about skill shortages (self interest will influence the perspectives of different groups). Finally even in situations where an absolute skill shortage is identified it may not necessarily follow that immigration is the appropriate policy response, as better outcomes might result from capital substitution, reallocation of output across industries or through more training activity.  The objective of the study reported here is to foster a better understanding of which indicators provide useful information about the presence of skill shortages and how such indicators should be interpreted when developing immigration policy advice.  "

 

 

Lol did you even read the link you posted? It literally concludes strongly in favour of university education. Here are two  quotations from the Hamilton report which you just posted countering your own argument:

 

"Despite the size of this spread, the typical graduate in every college major will out-earn the typical high school graduate by at least $200,000 over the career. "

 

College degrees may not be a guarantee of higher income, but they come closer than just about any other investment one can make. "

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