Terrymundo Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 Hello esteemed colleagues of gymnation. Most of you would have seen a Facebook post or two about people demanding the drug-testing of benefit receiving citizens of Aotearoa. Seems like many people feel an unjust biased has been cast on the contributing citizens whom are required to stay drug free to earn a living whilst a portion of their earnings is freely handed to those who have no obligation steer clear of the happy stuff. Ok thats sounds reasonable, lets drug test them, good idea........well maybe. I tend to disagree, sure the system is unfair and it does pain me to support these sacks of shit, what if we didn't?? Think about it, lets take away these person's income and ability and feed/house themselves. What are the going to do? No doubt some will stop and play within the rules, thats great. But what worries me is the addictiveness of these drugs and this level of dependancy will take priority over receiving easy money. So a drug addict says "f*ck your benefit, I can support myself" now obviously they will struggle with employment as our government puts pressure on employers to drug screen and enforce drug-free work place policies, so what do they do? Crime!! Having seen the power of addiction first hand many times, I know these people will do anything to get money and the easiest money nearly always aligned with sinister behaviour. Crime goes up, more theft, more drugs being pushed, more police, more court appearances, more prisoners, more tax payer money required. So what can we do? I honestly don't know, I do agree something needs to done. I am for the legalisation of cannabis, but this isn't the drug causing the issues, or is it? I have no facts but I'd put a dollar on it that the most jobs are lost on testing positive for THC. I find it hard to believe that THC is the culprit behind a proportion of work place accidents and productivity loss (provided it's consumed outside of work hours) So if we give the thumbs up to cannabis consumption will we see a increase in crime? probably not, will we see less unemployed, police, arrests, prisoners.... So legalise it (THC), shrink the blackmarket, and tax it. Revenue can fund programmes to address the more destructive habits. The current state of addiction rehabilitation and education is just not cutting it, so lets start funnelling resources into it. Im sure my idea is not fairytale politics. What do you think? eLm0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realtalk Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 THC still inhibits people's reactions and ability to function normally. Alcohol is legal and it does the same thing. It's unacceptable to show up to work under the influence of alcohol. So what makes you think THC would be an acceptable drug to be under the influence of in a workplace? I'm for drug testing beneficiaries on a level of principle. But realistically drug testing is expensive and benefits of doing so have to outweigh the costs which I just can't see happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrymundo Posted February 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 Im not saying it should be acceptable to be "high" at work. I believe there is testing methods that can differentiate between being high and having THC metabolites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eLm0 Posted February 22, 2016 Report Share Posted February 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Terrymundo said: So legalise it (THC), shrink the blackmarket, and tax it. Revenue can fund programmes to address the more destructive habits. The current state of addiction rehabilitation and education is just not cutting it, so lets start funnelling resources into it. Im sure my idea is not fairytale politics. What do you think? Amen to this. The problem is that this topic is not currently treated as a health issue (rather a social issue) this means that logical arguments about harm and addiction are not rationally taken into consideration 1 hour ago, Terrymundo said: So if we give the thumbs up to cannabis consumption will we see a increase in crime? probably not, will we see less unemployed, police, arrests, prisoners.... Look at Colorado as an example where recent legalization lead to a decrease in overall crime and where profits were redistributed into the education system FellowshipOfTheRon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Well I'd like to see testing for methamphetamine use that's for sure. I do a lot of my work for HNZ and the amount of properties that come back with high levels is incredible. We get an updated list of no go properties weekly and just in Palmerston north alone there are around 30 vacant properties we are not allowed to enter at the moment. And that's just the empty houses. Now that doesn't mean they were meth labs just that they were at least smoking it heavily inside. A lot of which I had been to throughout the year and have children. Why do I care? Because each property has to undergo an extensive makeover at a cost of up to 20 grand per property at the taxpayers expense. New paint throughout and a lot of new fixtures etc. It's a shit drug . soundsgood, gazza, eLm0 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudonym Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Call me a soft-hearted liberal, but I don't think it's fair to test all beneficiaries on the basis that a few might be partaking in various substances. Perhaps there's an argument that says a WINZ case worker can insist on drug tests on individuals they suspect are using. But as Terry says, what do you do after that? Withholding the benefit, tempting though it is, would only cause more problems. In terms of cannabis - it seems like more and more countries are looking and reconsidering their position on it now. Australia just opened it up for medical use. As far as meth testing goes... surely HNZ could routinely test their houses as part of the standard landlord inspections? It wouldn't necessarily catch all the users, but it would certainly help deter them from contaminating the property. And maybe it makes it difficult enough that it reduces use as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eLm0 Posted February 23, 2016 Report Share Posted February 23, 2016 Pretty much my views on this topic. One of the best TED talks ever Bruce Al 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Al Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 How do beneficiaries afford P and other such drugs? From the people i know on the benefit, after paying rent they are left with about $100 to pay expenses and food. Im not down with drug testing them. Waste of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryB Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 The question is what will they actually do once they've tested them and they come up positive? They're already not working and relying on benefits to survive. Will they stop giving them any assistance so they have to resort to drug dealing to survive.. or other types of crime. It's an interesting argument and one that the govt here in aus is also going through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 14 hours ago, Pseudonym said: Call me a soft-hearted liberal, but I don't think it's fair to test all beneficiaries on the basis that a few might be partaking in various substances. Perhaps there's an argument that says a WINZ case worker can insist on drug tests on individuals they suspect are using. But as Terry says, what do you do after that? Withholding the benefit, tempting though it is, would only cause more problems. In terms of cannabis - it seems like more and more countries are looking and reconsidering their position on it now. Australia just opened it up for medical use. As far as meth testing goes... surely HNZ could routinely test their houses as part of the standard landlord inspections? It wouldn't necessarily catch all the users, but it would certainly help deter them from contaminating the property. And maybe it makes it difficult enough that it reduces use as well. I think the problem lies in the cost of testing. They only currently do it if there has been reason to suspect usage. I think it's quite a lengthy process and more costly than testing an individual themselves. Cannabis maybee shouldn't be an issue. It does cause lack of motivation but it's not really on the level of other drugs. I also find a lot of little short syringe things attached to like a flexible tube with a short needle like guys use for steroids but shorter . Not sure what they are but seems to be a few houses I find them in fireplaces. If they test positive it's probably a start to deduct a small percentage of their benefits and then in a month test again while having rehabilitation services available to them . Of course all at taxpayers expense still lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realtalk Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 That's heroine bro. Or more likley methadone they have been prescribed and picked up from the pharmacy which they sell to other junkies or inject it instead of ingesting it to get a hit off it. Most of the bad ones take it in front of the pharmacist nowadays or it gets put in milk for them to takeaway so they can't sell it or inject it. Ever noticed a group of losers waiting for the pharmacy to open in the morning to get their daily sip. They the dirty fuckers spreading hep and hiv round. Skeletor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryB Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 Just now, Realtalk said: That's heroine bro. Or more likley methadone they have been prescribed and picked up from the pharmacy which they sell to other junkies or inject it instead of ingesting it to get a hit off it. Most of the bad ones take it in front of the pharmacist nowadays or it gets put in milk for them to takeaway so they can't sell it or inject it. Ever noticed a group of losers waiting for the pharmacy to open in the morning to get their daily sip. They the dirty fuckers spreading hep and hiv round. That seems pretty jaded there RT. They might be insulin dependent or suffering from dwarfism so those pins are for their gh..... Sure it's unlikely... but it could be the case. And if NZ is anything like Oz they're probably injecting their amphetamines. So might not be methadone or heroine. Makes me wanna buy a van and drive around doing charitable works..... poor junkies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maccaz Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 off topic but melbourne is next level for heroin and meth injectors. needles everywhere early last week i watched a chick try lowkey shoot up on the outside tables at mcdonalds on elizabeth street (like queen street AKL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realtalk Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 I guess we will just disagree on our views Harry. I can't say what I want to say anyway probably not appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyreguy Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 bit off topic here...but I like the ones that come in with there $20k cars, all sooped and shit, and come in for a winz quote for a set of 20 inch tyres....Really? Umm why don't you just buy a $2.5k van and be done with it $80 bucks instead of $200 bucks.....gaammonn! lol Skeletor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyro Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 Any new beneficiaries should undergo testing before becoming eligible, if they come back with a positive sample they simple don't get paid. They are still eligible for all the assistance with CV's, training, work place experience. But simply no money is handed out until a clear test comes back. This way they can still benefit from the assistance and the programs to get people back into work. I say only new beneficiaries because the cost to test every single current person is at a huge cost to the government, if you have it as a deterrent for new comers, instantly you can weed a lot of the slackers out. My belief is a substantial amount of the benefit should be handed out as food vouchers, gas or travel vouchers(individually assessed), all of which are non transferable and are linked to a specific user so they can't be traded. Only a small portion should be cash to pay for rent, bills etc. Along with putting the current beneficiaries to work, cleaning up the roadways, beaches, local communities, removing graffiti, various community service work etc etc, with a couple of days a side for training, up skilling and interviews. Working along side many housing NZ tenants its crazy the amount that have sky, big tvs, stereos, and sit around on their asses all day long doing nothing. While this is only a small portion and a lot of NZers are struggling and need the assistance, they could get along without a straight cash payout. boomboomkf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pseudonym Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 On 23/02/2016 at 0:47 AM, Pseudonym said: In terms of cannabis - it seems like more and more countries are looking and reconsidering their position on it now. Australia just opened it up for medical use. And quite coincidentally, Peter Dunne is in the NZ Herald today telling us we should be treating addiction as a health issue, not a criminal one. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11594946 Quote Mr Dunne recently launched the 2015-2020 National Drug Policy, which could significantly reform the treatment of drugs such as cannabis. He said the policy's key values reflected what he saw today. "We are shifting the focus very deliberately to seeing drug-related issues primarily as health issues, and I keep using three words in respect of the principles that underline the policy - compassion, innovation and proportion. "Compassion in terms of a sympathetic response to people's issues, innovation in looking a new and different ways of tackling old problems...and proportion, making sure we get the balance right all the way through." The new national drug policy has five priority areas, one of which is "getting the legal balance right". The Ministry of Health will work with the Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs to make sure that classification decisions on drugs were focussed on harm. Work will also take place to examine whether the law and enforcement measures around drug possession and utensil possession are still reasonable and proportionate. It'll be interesting to see what their recommendations are. I wonder if it's just recreational drugs, or if they'd be looking at steroids, too? eLm0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eLm0 Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 9 hours ago, Pseudonym said: And quite coincidentally, Peter Dunne is in the NZ Herald today telling us we should be treating addiction as a health issue, not a criminal one. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11594946 Wow, happy to read this. He must have watched the TED talk haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundsgood Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 I always saw Peter Dunne as a huge roadblock to progress. He always came across as someone stuck in the past who viewed anyone who used drugs as criminals who should be in jail. This is a fantastic turn around in his change of opinion and he should be applauded for it. Too many politicians are stubborn and you wait for a new government before anything changes. Well done Peter Dunne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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