First Post First Cycle. Man Up Time!

[Realtalk]

Not at all just edited my post answering your question before. Sounds like you are trying to justify your stupidity and obsessive/addictive nature by putting everyone who uses sensibly in the same category as you who abused steroids.

[WheelerWannabe]

Hey well I think it needs to be said, ive followed bodybuilding for years and I see all the glory in the training and the wins. But here, after years, I hear the side that maybe these guys are sitting in their bathroom like "I dont want to keep doing this" I want to compete and go pro but pinning multiple substances every doesnt sound fun. And then retiring to do it as well. I pinned once and deff dont wanna  be doing this forever. Thanks for sharing

[I Declare War]

I think that's a good decision mate. There is a risk, the people who don't accept that are in denial. It's a good idea to really think this through because it's a lifestyle choice, and quite a long-term one if you're having to be on TRT from a young age.

 

Not sure what the policy is for linking threads from other forums here is? But here's an interesting thread to read. I'll remove it if it's not appropriate? http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-steroids-questions-answers/577658-first-cycle-plan-18-years-old.html

 

Young guy 18, wants to use steroids. You're 23, yeah, a bit older... but the argument still applies.

 

I like the part where one guy says his T level might be high at 1000 now, the peak of his life, but after cycling he might only ever get his natural test back to 800... every cycle after that I think you're running the risk of lowering the chance of returning your level to where they were prior. 

 

Good luck!

[bang_bang]

200mgs pw is hardly worth it imo. Especially if your gears possibly a bit underdosed. Pinning 200mg every 4-5 days would be a good compromise. It would keep your blood levels more stable and you'd be running closer to 300mg per week which is still f*ck all but better than 200 with very little/no added risk. 

 

I think idw has some good points but it is a bit ironic coming from him. Are you sure you want to go down this path? You don't sound entirely convinced. Steroids arent like other drugs where you can try them once with no risk of long term repercussions although I've heard cases of people's natural test coming back higher after a cycle. 

[WheelerWannabe]

Thanks for that read IDW.

It really makes me think do I want to potentially do this the rest of my life.

 

My main goal is one, dont f*ck myself up, two, get bigger when it comes to AAS

 At 5'9 with my stats im not sure ill get much bigger naturally. 

 

Ive always followed bodybuilding so I guess this is naturally the next step to competing and aiming for a high level. 

Just sucks to know thats signing, as discussed, for pinning for life. But this is the game. 

 

Though some androgel (or whatever its called) in the pit every once in a while doesnt sound to bad haha

 

Jokes aside though, hypothetically if I wanted to stop but were too cheap to chuck it in the trash. Could I pin a large amount every so often. Im guessing a sudden spike wont do much but also wont shut me down.

 

Again thanks for all inputs and view points.

[jimmybro1]

16 hours ago, I Declare War said:

@jimmybro1 absolutely wasted my hormonal system. Completely shutdown. But, I feel okay on TRT. If you're still natty and running good, then best to stay natty. It's much better than TRT.

 

 

So no likely hood of having children then? 

 

Have you tried all methods of PCT, high doses of hCG? Did it improve LH, FST at all?  

[I Declare War]

1 hour ago, jimmybro1 said:

So no likely hood of having children then? 

 

Have you tried all methods of PCT, high doses of hCG? Did it improve LH, FST at all?  

 

I don't think it will stop me having children. It's just stopped me being able to have a good level of natural testosterone production. Mrs wants children this year and I'm optimistic that everything is all good in the department. 

 

hCG and TRT has got me feeling good again. Best chance is to drop the TRT dose of test and run hCG by itself for a few months, then try with Clomid only. If that doesn't work hMG (which is a mix of LH and FSH) should work if there aren't any other issues that I know aobut. hMG is quite pricey though so I'll avoid that if I can.

 

[ratz99]

@I Declare War Might bounce back if you're lucky?  You cant make blanket statements like that generalizing for everyone. If you aren't an idiot ,  don't take outrageous amounts of gear, don't go on massive long cycles and do your pct and take time off then its likely everything will come back to almost normal. Sure some people are unlucky, but then those people occasionally seem to be the ones who don't understand moderation.

 

[Daz69]

11 hours ago, I Declare War said:

 

I don't think it will stop me having children. It's just stopped me being able to have a good level of natural testosterone production. Mrs wants children this year and I'm optimistic that everything is all good in the department. 

 

hCG and TRT has got me feeling good again. Best chance is to drop the TRT dose of test and run hCG by itself for a few months, then try with Clomid only. If that doesn't work hMG (which is a mix of LH and FSH) should work if there aren't any other issues that I know aobut. hMG is quite pricey though so I'll avoid that if I can.

 

 

Hi Marty... I've read of endo's using hCG, hMG, clomid combo for increasing testosterone levels, with the inclusion of hMG for spermatogenesis, but it seems to be a long process, with mixed results...

 

I think you've personally had a bad experience, which is unfortunate for you.. I'm inclined to agree best case scenario might be wait until 25 if possible before considering AAS.. But you know how it is, people get impatient..

 

If on testosterone only <500mg/week I believe most people can recover with a simple taper inclusive of an AI in the last few weeks.. If on a larger dose including suppressive compounds such as nandrolone, then PCT might be more prudent, followed by sufficient time off (at least 6 months)..

 

It has been stated natural testosterone levels decrease after each cycle, but we also get older (test decreases as we age) so I suppose its how you wish to look at it..

 

There is growing evidence to suggest androgens negatively impact cardiovascular health, raising BP, stiffening myocardium and arteries, LVH, cardiac lesions, etc.. 

 

This may reduce life expectancy, but do we experience a better quality of life up to the point when AAS finally kill us..?

 

 

[Realtalk]

Honestly. Let's get real here. when you use 5000mg/week then another time use 2600mg/week with no testosterone at all... What do you expect. Apples and oranges. 

 

 

[I Declare War]

Never used that much. Maybe max 1.5g at times. Not sure about the no testosterone at all part is from as well. Just typing away whatever comes to your mind there from the looks of it.

 

Here's some stuff that comes to my mind:

 

1. If you're shutdown, you're shutdown.

2. Doesn't matter how much test you use, because of 1. More test will lead to other problems but you will still be shutdown.

3. Length of shutdown affects your chances of recovery. 

4. Anabolics like Tren and Deca further interfer with other hormonal systems, such as dopamine, progesterone receptor and effects, thyroid... so cause more disruption

5. One cycle is enough to cause a HTP Axis crash and make one require TRT. Easy to find examples on google.

6. Not doing a proper PCT and taking enough time off to return to homeostasis also affects recovery.

 

Good that the OP decided to reconsider. I'd love to see you come off the gear @Realtalk and take bloods / document how you feel and see whether you recover. Maybe you'd eat your words then and come down off that high horse you've got there.

 

[Realtalk]

Dude I'm just going off your old

 cycle logs from the forum. But whatever man.

 

 

 

 

 

[maccaz]

A question for IDW and anyone else on this topic actually

 

How is fertility related to natural test production?

 

I would rate fertility as being more important than natural test production, if possible to have one without the other. 

 

my mate has good swimmers on blast+cruise, confirmed by doctor, but he would certainly be shut down, how do these things affect each other?

[jimmybro1]

On 1/13/2016 at 0:27 AM, WheelerWannabe said:

Thanks for that read IDW.

It really makes me think do I want to potentially do this the rest of my life.

 

My main goal is one, dont f*ck myself up, two, get bigger when it comes to AAS

 At 5'9 with my stats im not sure ill get much bigger naturally. 

 

Ive always followed bodybuilding so I guess this is naturally the next step to competing and aiming for a high level. 

Just sucks to know thats signing, as discussed, for pinning for life. But this is the game. 

 

Though some androgel (or whatever its called) in the pit every once in a while doesnt sound to bad haha

 

Jokes aside though, hypothetically if I wanted to stop but were too cheap to chuck it in the trash. Could I pin a large amount every so often. Im guessing a sudden spike wont do much but also wont shut me down.

 

Again thanks for all inputs and view points.

I think the quality of spermogensis is related to FSH I maybe wrong though. 

 

How that is related to test no idea 

[jimmybro1]

@I Declare War I can't remember you posting bloods on the forum either... did you take bloods before and half cycles if so do you have that information now would be interesting to see the rate of recovery during and after PCT if any at all. 

 

@Daz69 how is your cardiovascular system ? are you still experiencing issues? what tests would you recommend people to cycle to have done to keep an eye on this ? There have been many professional bodybuilders and likely powerlifters (not so well documented IMO) who have had heart complications in there 40s. 

 

@maccaz also agree re-test production it shouldn't be of to much concern if swimmers still fine and not causing sexual dysfunction. If you test levels were 50 pre-cycle then 40 afterwards you won't notice. In fact mine is 18 and never touched a hormone and perfectly fine   (busting all kinds of nuts). I think people put to much emphasis on what there natural test levels are. If not causing any health issue then don't try fix what isn't broke.  

[maccaz]

9 minutes ago, jimmybro1 said:

 

@Daz69 how is your cardiovascular system ? are you still experiencing issues? what tests would you recommend people to cycle to have done to keep an eye on this ? There have been many professional bodybuilders and likely powerlifters (not so well documented IMO) who have had heart complications in there 40s. 

 

 

 

my understanding on this area was the cardiac issues were caused by heart hypertrophy caused by increased average BP?

so over time the heart muscle grows/thickens and gets more rigid (i guess what you aim for in skeletal muscle lol)

 

doubt much can be done to avoid that?

[jimmybro1]

On 1/13/2016 at 0:27 AM, WheelerWannabe said:

Thanks for that read IDW.

It really makes me think do I want to potentially do this the rest of my life.

 

My main goal is one, dont f*ck myself up, two, get bigger when it comes to AAS

 At 5'9 with my stats im not sure ill get much bigger naturally. 

 

Ive always followed bodybuilding so I guess this is naturally the next step to competing and aiming for a high level. 

Just sucks to know thats signing, as discussed, for pinning for life. But this is the game. 

 

Though some androgel (or whatever its called) in the pit every once in a while doesnt sound to bad haha

 

Jokes aside though, hypothetically if I wanted to stop but were too cheap to chuck it in the trash. Could I pin a large amount every so often. Im guessing a sudden spike wont do much but also wont shut me down.

 

Again thanks for all inputs and view points.

I remember daz stating that particular compounds have greater influence on cardiovascular health like Deca .. 

 

 

[Daz69]

25 minutes ago, maccaz said:

 

my understanding on this area was the cardiac issues were caused by heart hypertrophy caused by increased average BP?

so over time the heart muscle grows/thickens and gets more rigid (i guess what you aim for in skeletal muscle lol)

 

doubt much can be done to avoid that?

 

There are androgen receptors in myocardium, and I believe vascular tissue, this can cause hypertrophy, but also affects collagen creating fibrotic accretions, which in turn causes stiffening of cardiovascular tissue in general, this is very unhealthy in the long term.. This does increase BP, and elevated BP can be responsible for increased stiffening, so its self perpetuating action.. 

[Daz69]

3 hours ago, maccaz said:

A question for IDW and anyone else on this topic actually

 

How is fertility related to natural test production?

 

I would rate fertility as being more important than natural test production, if possible to have one without the other. 

 

my mate has good swimmers on blast+cruise, confirmed by doctor, but he would certainly be shut down, how do these things affect each other?

 

Having baseline levels of testosterone in the testes keeps sperm production going...

[maccaz]

13 minutes ago, Daz69 said:

 

Having baseline levels of testosterone in the testes keeps sperm production going...

sorry what does that mean? baseline as in natural or exogenous?

 

[I Declare War]

The HPT Axis, our  hormonal glands, is ruled by Gonadotroping Releasing Hormone (GnRH), which releases Lutenizing Hormone (LH) and other gonadotropins into the the body. LH lights up a number of hormonal pathways but primarily stimulates the production of testosterone from pregenolone.

 

Most ex-steroid users who are hypogonadal don't produce enough GnRH, and subsequently because gonadotropins aren't produced, the testicles don't make much testosterone and sperm.

 

GnRH is very potent and is actually used as a means of chemical castration - which is why I think it is not commonly used. I'm no expert on this. The easiest product of GnRH that we can obtain is human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG). hCG is structurally very similar to LH, it does the same job as LH in humans. In males its primary function is to increase testosterone production. 

 

hCG also lights up many hormonal pathways, not just testosterone production. It can get your testicles producting sperm again. There is another gonadotropin that GnRH releases called Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH) which is more directly related to fertility (spermatogenesis). FSH can also be taken to get your testicles cranking out the swimmers, but it is more expensive. 

 

hCG can be made by bacteria for us in the lab, or extracted from urine from pregnant women (yuck). It's cheap.

 

LH/FSH are more expensive, and LH has a half-life in the body of about 20 minutes. Together they are referred to as human Menopausal Gonadotropins (hMG). This preparation is what you want to take if hCG doesn't work, but administration is complicated because of LH's short half-life.

 

hCG has a long half-life so you can inject it. Lasts for about 2 days. Problem is, this long half life is not what we evolved with. Our nuts want a quick signal to say hey boys make your test, laters yo. LH goes away and other hormonal reactions can continue to happen (GnRH production). hCG is like a loud ass mofo yelling at your nuts for two days, and doesn't work as well as what our natural system would.

 

Using hCG is like using a sledge hammer to tap in thumb tacks... Can get the job done, but it is not ideal. Sometimes it's all you need.

 

More info on the differences / similarities between hCG and LH http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0303720713005248

[maccaz]

41 minutes ago, I Declare War said:

 

hCG has a long half-life so you can inject it. Lasts for about 2 days. Problem is, this long half life is not what we evolved with. Our nuts want a quick signal to say hey boys make your test, laters yo. LH goes away and other hormonal reactions can continue to happen (FSH production). hCG is like a loud ass mofo yelling at your nuts for two days, and doesn't work as well as what our natural system would.

 

i suppose this is what causes the debate of running hcg throughout cycle vs blasting hcg post cycle

[I Declare War]

27 minutes ago, maccaz said:

 

i suppose this is what causes the debate of running hcg throughout cycle vs blasting hcg post cycle

Yeah, it's interesting. I think a sensible approach for people who are cycling would be to only use it during the last 4 weeks of a cycle, to restore testicular size, then drop it as soon as exogenous testosterone has cleared the system. Then start Clomid to get your FSH and LH back.

[Daz69]

3 hours ago, maccaz said:

sorry what does that mean? baseline as in natural or exogenous?

 

 

Natural testosterone synthesis..

[I Declare War]

22 hours ago, Daz69 said:

 

I think you've personally had a bad experience, which is unfortunate for you.. I'm inclined to agree best case scenario might be wait until 25 if possible before considering AAS.. But you know how it is, people get impatient..This may reduce life expectancy, but do we experience a better quality of life up to the point when AAS finally kill us..?

 

 

 

Not sure buddy, my opinion is that in moderation it's okay. If you feel good and don't blast too much then you'll be able to lead a happy and hopefully long life. It's the abuse and ignorance of the side effects that leads to problems.

 

Cheers