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jimmybro1

Fasted cardio - to do or not to do?

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MOD EDIT: This topic has been split from http://www.gymnation.co.nz/forums/topic/19542-where-them-girls-at/

 

 

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As for fasted cardio people believe it just works ? Like Harry. But I find that hard to imagine as on a thermodynamic scale it makes absolutely no sense. 

 

As as if you consume the same amount of calories throughout the day with out without fasted cardio the net change will be the same in terms of energy. 

 

For or example if you fill up a car in the morning you can drive x distance in a day until the fuel is consumed or you could fuel up the night before and travel the same distance. 

 

Im not sure how these "dieting" concepts are thought up. Maybe fastings effects on blood sugar etc has an influence on metabolic rate? The cardio must be low intensity if on an empty stomach like some boring arse walking or jogging on a trend mill or poor excuse for HIIT ? 

 

 

Edited by Pseudonym

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A 2kg gain of lean muscle tissue would lead to a greater increase in bodyweight than 2kg due to the added glycogen etc that this muscle tissue would then have the capacity to to store.

Gaining that amount of actual muscle tissue in the time frame would be next to impossible especially for a natural female I would say.

That is why I said lean mass, which includes water, glycogen etc. She may have gained a couple hundred grams of lean dry muscle tissue but this will be more evident by her appearance than by the skinfolds as it has been said, they're known to be wildly inaccurate and for estimation purposes only. That said her skinfolds all went down bar one, which is quite hormonal anyway, and her body weight has stayed much the same. Without putting definitive numbers on anything it seems like progress in the right direction at anyone's best guess.

 

Also the fasted cardio debate.. Works for some, doesn't work for others. Some will do it, some won't.  People I have worked with and doing it myself I can attest that it works majority of the time. It's not a straight calories in calories out debate. Your body is adaptive to stress. And your hormones at different times of the day, at different times around meals, times around trainings etc can influence where your body will use energy from.

In the pyramid of importance for weight/fat loss calories in vs calories out is of course king, but if you have that dialled in and can get even just a few more grams of fat burned by doing your cardio earlier in the day and it suits your schedule then why not do it ?

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16 hours ago, pesto said:

How did you come up with the 2kg muscle gain? Seems pretty unlikely to legitimately gain 2kg of muscle in 4 weeks

I didn't come up with it, my nutritionist did. After doing body fat measurements and weight she calculated my lean mass. Which she also did a month ago so whether or not you think callipers are accurate for BF, it's comparing apples with apples.

 

1 hour ago, jimmybro1 said:

I would say impossible, the amount of energy required to produce 2kg of muscle tissue would be greater than the consumption of her caliores over that duration. 

 

I'm guess the 2kg was calculated from a pitch test which others have mentioned is norotoristy incorrect. I would say the error of a pitch test would be about +/- 20% at best. 

 

As for fasted cardio people believe it just works ? Like Harry. But I find that hard to imagine as on a thermodynamic scale it makes absolutely no sense. 

 

As as if you consume the same amount of calories throughout the day with out without fasted cardio the net change will be the same in terms of energy. 

 

For or example if you fill up a car in the morning you can drive x distance in a day until the fuel is consumed or you could fuel up the night before and travel the same distance. 

 

Im not sure how these "dieting" concepts are thought up. Maybe fastings effects on blood sugar etc has an influence on metabolic rate? The cardio must be low intensity if on an empty stomach like some boring arse walking or jogging on a trend mill or poor excuse for HIIT ? 

 

 

The whole thing with fasted cardio from what I've learnt, is the hopes are that your body will turn to its fat stores rather than food you have recently consumed (current glucose in the system). I don't know why you're getting your knickers in a twist about it. Like I said- it's how I can fit cardio 4 times a week into my routine.

 

 

 

Think I might bow out on starting a journal lol 

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Caliper testing is for measuring change. The actual numbers are mostly irrelevant. If the same person is measuring the same points at the same time of day then you are either going to see progression or regression. Whether one person gets 20% from your skinfolds or 24% it doesn't matter. What matters is getting it tested on a consistent basis and comparing those results. What also matters is not so much the result percentage and numbers, but inbetween the numbers and dates.

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Lol I don't just believe it works for no reason. I know it works because I have seen it make a significant difference time and time again. I'm not talking about studies I've read on the Internet or something someone else has told me. I'm talking about what I have seen make a difference. 

 

The idea is definitely that your blood glucose and available glucose is a whole lot lower when fasted so you draw more into your bodyfat than you would with a belly full of food. I've read every argument and I've had clients do all kinds of  cardio protocols and just in my experience fasted cardiovascular works. 

 

Had to lol at the comment about it being boring cos can I just say ... weight training... it ain't the most exciting thing to a whole lot of people :) whereas a nice morning walk/run is. Horses for courses. 

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1 hour ago, Georg said:

I didn't come up with it, my nutritionist did. After doing body fat measurements and weight she calculated my lean mass. Which she also did a month ago so whether or not you think callipers are accurate for BF, it's comparing apples with apples.

 

The whole thing with fasted cardio from what I've learnt, is the hopes are that your body will turn to its fat stores rather than food you have recently consumed (current glucose in the system). I don't know why you're getting your knickers in a twist about it. Like I said- it's how I can fit cardio 4 times a week into my routine.

 

 

 

Think I might bow out on starting a journal lol 

 

Don't let these responses put you off, most of the guys on here would never think of dieting let alone do cardio for fat lose.

At best their comments are in response to other poorly argued posts or here say, very few actually apply any experience to their thinking.

With regard to fasted cardio it it fits your routine that's all that really matters. I use it during pre contest phase all the time.

In regard to body fat measurement 2 kg of lean mass is at the top end of the scale but is achieveable. And like you say it is not a one offor measurement but rather the comparative to last time and next time that is important!

Go on if you start a journal l might participate too!

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1 hour ago, Georg said:

I didn't come up with it, my nutritionist did. After doing body fat measurements and weight she calculated my lean mass. Which she also did a month ago so whether or not you think callipers are accurate for BF, it's comparing apples with apples.

 

The whole thing with fasted cardio from what I've learnt, is the hopes are that your body will turn to its fat stores rather than food you have recently consumed (current glucose in the system). I don't know why you're getting your knickers in a twist about it. Like I said- it's how I can fit cardio 4 times a week into my routine.

 

 

 

Think I might bow out on starting a journal lol 

I was looking for an explanation... 

 

If someone contests something you say you would rather not post ? 

 

This isnt facebook where people jump on bandwagons and posts are selectively removed. I have a different opinions on approaches to dieting and trying to get some logic behind the madness that is fasting. 

 

Maybe be I am in a blind rage with my knickers in a twist though. Together we shall spike our insulin and curve that catabolic window into an anabolic one as we all are members of the iron church.  Thy reps be done thy sets become. Whey men fellow brofessor 

 

 

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1 hour ago, HarryB said:

Lol I don't just believe it works for no reason. I know it works because I have seen it make a significant difference time and time again. I'm not talking about studies I've read on the Internet or something someone else has told me. I'm talking about what I have seen make a difference. 

 

The idea is definitely that your blood glucose and available glucose is a whole lot lower when fasted so you draw more into your bodyfat than you would with a belly full of food. I've read every argument and I've had clients do all kinds of  cardio protocols and just in my experience fasted cardiovascular works. 

 

Had to lol at the comment about it being boring cos can I just say ... weight training... it ain't the most exciting thing to a whole lot of people :) whereas a nice morning walk/run is. Horses for courses. 

Interesting, I have read something similar to that but haven't found anything more concrete. 

 

Im more interested in the science of how things work. I know a lot of you don't have as much interest in that aspect but if I was to recommend something like fasted cardio I would want to know the rationale behind it.  As you should of your a professional in that particular field as people and paying for your knowledge rather than some half arse article that's in some supplement ad or MD. 

 

As you weight training being boring ? Come on you wouldn't have been doing it this long if that where the case. As for morning walk on a 5 degree incline that's hella boring more sports specific cardio is a lot more fun like spirits or actually playing a sport. But I guess there is no little calorie counter there more you to ensure you haven't gone to catabolic and might get to shredded lol. 

 

But I guess some people are going to love doing all kinds of things others are going to find boring. I just don't understand why people want to do cardio to lose weight but not build on their fitness. 

 

Note: I am typing this message whilst with the masses Christmas shopping. 

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Saying you gained 2kg of muscle in a month is pretty questionable so hardly surprising people dont believe it. Its not 'at the upper end of what is acheivable' at all but the error  is understandable since it was deduced from skinfold readings, hence why i asked how you came up with that figure.

 

But as others have said seems like youre making progress. Make your journal and show us your progress and maybe then you'll be questioned less if you can actually show everyone results.

 

If a male posted the same thing about 2kg muscle gain in a month im pretty sure they'd get the same response. And it's a lot less acheivable for a female.

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4 minutes ago, jimmybro1 said:

I was looking for an explanation... 

 

If someone contests something you say you would rather not post ? 

 

This isnt facebook where people jump on bandwagons and posts are selectively removed. I have a different opinions on approaches to dieting and trying to get some logic behind the madness that is fasting. 

 

Maybe be I am in a blind rage with my knickers in a twist though. Together we shall spike our insulin and curve that catabolic window into an anabolic one as we all are members of the iron church.  Thy reps be done thy sets become. Whey men fellow brofessor 

 

 

I'm all about some healthy discussion and I'm certainly not one to stand back from contesting if my opinion is different to someone else's.

 

Contest away.

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13 minutes ago, Georg said:

I'm all about some healthy discussion and I'm certainly not one to stand back from contesting if my opinion is different to someone else's.

 

Contest away.

I have stated my opinions as to why I don't believe fasting works. 

 

But you can't state why it does other than personal experiences also known as anecdotal evidence and that's fine. 

 

There red is just so much misinformed information in the "fitness industry " where people's qualifications come from how shredded they are or how big their biceps are. But let's not get started on the fitness industry that's a total sespit . 

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2 minutes ago, jimmybro1 said:

I have stated my opinions as to why I don't believe fasting works. 

 

But you can't state why it does other than personal experiences also known as anecdotal evidence and that's fine. 

I don't need to. I haven't spent hours studying the science behind it, I know the simple science and that's enough for me (and a shit load of others too).

 

There's also the simple point of having to get up at 5:30am to fit cardio in before work, let alone getting up any earlier to fit in eating, a short break, and then cardio. Gotta catch some zzz's at some point.

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1 minute ago, Georg said:

I don't need to. I haven't spent hours studying the science behind it, I know the simple science and that's enough for me (and a shit load of others too).

 

There's also the simple point of having to get up at 5:30am to fit cardio in before work, let alone getting up any earlier to fit in eating, a short break, and then cardio. Gotta catch some zzz's at some point.

 I don't think there is an advantage to fasted cardio nor disadvantage. Although performance may lack. 

 

If if it fits your schedule that particular way then no far. I just wouldn't understand why you would go out of your way to do it. 

 

Does any one here have a link to some studies for interest ? 

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No sure if fasting works , but, apart from the sports i play, i like to do my morning cardio fasted.

This is usually swimming. 

Going to a gym to do cardio on a machine is just straight up stink buzz.

I reason i swim fasted a couple mornings a week is because my body feels better swimming with no food in my stomach. 
Sometimes im just really hungry in the mornings and will have some left over kfc before hitting the pool. Cant quite see why it would make a difference if i had it after or before.

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3 hours ago, jimmybro1 said:

 I don't think there is an advantage to fasted cardio nor disadvantage. Although performance may lack. 

 

If if it fits your schedule that particular way then no far. I just wouldn't understand why you would go out of your way to do it. 

 

Does any one here have a link to some studies for interest ? 

 

Why don't we train without a meal or two in us? I mean weight train? Is it because we believe that we won't have as much available glycogen to have a decent workout?  So we feel like it's counterproductive. So if we believe that as a reason to not weight train fasted then why is it such a massive stretch to think fasted cardio isnt effective in the way it's been explained to effective? Lower glycogen so preferential fat usage. You might assume I have a bro science mentality but you'd be quite far from the truth. What I am is open to anecdotal evidence (by my own eyes) and so whilst I understand what you're saying.. I also know first hand that for a whole lot of people fasted cardio is legit. 

 

Have also done hiit and thought of total cal expenditure vs intake so what does it matter etc etc etc. Fasted cardio just works. Hiit sucks cos try training flat out when you're doing hiit and on a heavily calorie restricted diet.

 

As for not worrying about fitness..  I never cared about fitness. Not even one single time. Or I'd have been a runner. 

 

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Ok, I've done a bit of research and it seems I am not the only one resisting intermittent fasting for fat loss.  

 

Quote

When nutrition experts Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld recently teamed up with some colleagues to test the theory of fasted cardio in a lab setting, they sought to remove personal bias from the equation. Forget about what we might think is happening when we work out before breakfast. What is the true nature of a metabolic environment conducive to fat loss?

 

RELATED: Starvation Mode: How to Make the Fasted State Work for You

 

In a study for the Journal of the International Society of Sports Medicine, twenty young females, all healthy and with recent aerobic training experience (but not resistance training) were divided into two groups. All participants were prescribed the same calorie-restricted diet along with the same steady-state cardio routine. The only variable was that one group (FED) would be given a shake before performing cardio, while the other (FASTED) would wait to consume the shake post-workout.

 

The controls used in this study are important for two reasons:

 

  1. Fat oxidation during activity is a training adaptation. An untrained person would have less efficient substrate utilization, which could potentially skew the data toward the realm of fasted cardio being ineffective.
  2. The presence of lean muscle mass can have a big effect on fatty acid catabolism. If all of the subjects had high levels of lean muscle mass, the results could potentially read that fasted cardio is more effective than it might actually be.

 

These two elements help control for what could potentially be two very biased conclusions.

 

RELATED: First Rule: Do Not Talk About Intermittent Fasting

 

So what did Aragon and Schoenfeld’s team find? Everyone lost fat, but it had nothing to do with fasting or not fasting. Consistent with the First Law of Thermodynamics, shifting a person’s energy balance so that expenditure exceeds intake seems to be the most conducive environment for fat loss. It seems what the participants benefitted from the most was the presence of supervised dietary restriction and mandatory exercise.

 

Everything needs to obey the laws of thermodynamics.  

 

Quote

It has been hypothesized that performing aerobic exercise after an overnight fast accelerates the loss of body fat. The purpose of this study was to investigate changes in fat mass and fat-free mass following four weeks of volume-equated fasted versus fed aerobic exercise in young women adhering to a hypocaloric diet. Twenty healthy young female volunteers were randomly assigned to 1 of 2 experimental groups: a fasted training (FASTED) group that performed exercise after an overnight fast (n = 10) or a post-prandial training (FED) group that consumed a meal prior to exercise (n = 10). Training consisted of 1 hour of steady-state aerobic exercise performed 3 days per week. Subjects were provided with customized dietary plans designed to induce a caloric deficit. Nutritional counseling was provided throughout the study period to help ensure dietary adherence and self-reported food intake was monitored on a regular basis. A meal replacement shake was provided either immediately prior to exercise for the FED group or immediately following exercise for the FASTED group, with this nutritional provision carried out under the supervision of a research assistant. Both groups showed a significant loss of weight (P = 0.0005) and fat mass (P = 0.02) from baseline, but no significant between-group differences were noted in any outcome measure. These findings indicate that body composition changes associated with aerobic exercise in conjunction with a hypocaloric diet are similar regardless whether or not an individual is fasted prior to training.

 

Here is a link to the study for interest http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25429252

 

From what I have read from various fitness websites (which used no references or referred to studies) was that: 

  • Fat oxidation occurs at a faster rate when insulin is low (this is true)
  • Insulin levels are influenced by blood glucose, and blood glucose is lowest when we have fasted (true)
  • Low to moderate intensity activity predominately utilizes fatty acids as energy, especially during longer duration's (45-60 mins) (conflicting studies)

 

Now for the trick the fitness industry plays... 

 

From these facts it has been derived from fitness "experts" that intermittent fasting will maximize fat loss. For example a guru would say "An effective plan of attack would be to start early morning fasted cardio for about 45 minutes" after stating the above bullet points. They couple some science with some of their own inferences about the processes and come up with a theory aka pseudo-science. They will typically reinforce this with their own experiences. 

 

I guess thermodynamics and the process of digestion aren't things people like to talk about in the fitness industry. But can't say I am surprised logic isn't something the fitness industry has a lot of. 

 

This is called Bayesian inference and is quite common. Data and science should not be assessed and qualified with our own experiences. Although this is a common thing to do, this makes a study no longer legitimate and bias 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, pesto said:

 

Was wondering the same thing. My comments aren't even about fasted cardio and for some reason they've been moved here.

Smooth aye, and whats up with the topic tile obviously intermittent fasting is pointless IMO.  Why would I start a trend questioning if it is legitimate.  I want to inform people that it is logically and scientifically bullshit.   

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Lol there's no putting it to rest... people will think what they think. My suggestion would be to try both protocols in a manner that a bodybuilder would while in precontest mode and see which garners the best result. Pretty much every study is bias and the creators take the study on with a preconceived notion of how it will or they want it to turn out. Manipulation of data is so prevalent that it's a wonder anyone buys into anything. 

 

Best thing is to try multiple protocols exactly as they are prescribed and make a decision based on that as to what is most effective for you. I'd like to say there is one "most effective way" but there isn't. Mostly in my opinion because some approaches mentally suit some people and some don't. 

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10 minutes ago, jimmybro1 said:

Why did this get moved? 

 

Because it had turned into a conversation about fasted cardio, which was no longer Georg's introduction. I want you to have this discussion, but the original topic wasn't the place for it.

 

I've now edited the first post to make it clear it was split from another topic. You guys were just too fast for me.

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1 minute ago, Pseudonym said:

 

Because it had turned into a conversation about fasted cardio, which was no longer Georg's introduction. I want you to have this discussion, but the original topic wasn't the place for it.

 

I've now edited the first post to make it clear it was split from another topic. You guys were just too fast for me.

Is it cause you support fasting Pseudo :P

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5 minutes ago, HarryB said:

Lol there's no putting it to rest... people will think what they think. My suggestion would be to try both protocols in a manner that a bodybuilder would while in precontest mode and see which garners the best result. Pretty much every study is bias and the creators take the study on with a preconceived notion of how it will or they want it to turn out. Manipulation of data is so prevalent that it's a wonder anyone buys into anything. 

 

Best thing is to try multiple protocols exactly as they are prescribed and make a decision based on that as to what is most effective for you. I'd like to say there is one "most effective way" but there isn't. Mostly in my opinion because some approaches mentally suit some people and some don't. 

I don't know  Harry I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. 

 

but being open minded is a open way to approach things as you suggest. 

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