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konigstiger

Endo said no to TRT, solutions?

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Hey guys, I've been meaning to get TRT so I went to a private endocrinologist here in Auckland for an hour consultation which cost a whopping $400.
I brought my blood work with me and are as follows (taken 07 August 2015)
I'm 25 btw
Total T= 473 ng/dl
Free t= nil (Not calculated since over 15 nmol/L)
FSH= 6.4 IU/L
LH = 5.5 IU/L
Prolactin 140 miu/L
TSH 1.9 mIU/L

Of course, I told her all my symptoms which are analogous to low t (the thing that bothers me most is a lack of drive for life/no motivation and just an apathetic feeling towards life).

She said no. Despite all the symptoms, my levels are in the 'normal range'.
I pushed and pushed and still she said no. She said it was 'unethical' of her to prescribe me TRT (maybe i should visit a male endocrinologist?)

She however gave me a script for a full blood checkup and the results were as follows (I read that not sleeping can reduce t levels so I decided to not sleep at all before the morning blood test.)

The results were taken the 10th of november

Total t= 444 ng/dl
FSH= 4.4 IU/L
LH= 3.2 IU/L
Progesterone 1.7 nmol/L
Oestradiol 97 pmol/L
Prolactin 172 miu/L

 

Thyroid functions
Free T4 20 pmol/L
TSH 4.5 mIU/L

So I gave up trying to get trt and tried to jack up my t levels the normal way, because the cost was way too much to see another one.

A week after this, I went as hard as I can at the gym for three days straight and on the fourth day(I made sure I slept this time), I paid for a blood test just for total t and it came back an abysmal 283 ng/dl. What gives?

Optimistic that I might be able to get TRT, I got another test done a week later and it came back 459 ng/l

Now, the last two tests I paid for on my own and thus were not forwarded to the endocrinologist. So maybe I can take just the low test score and give it to her. However, I know she and will probably say my levels are normal yet again. I don't want to spend another few hundred dollars just to get the same response.

What would you do in my situation?
I just really want my life back and desperately seek for TRT. I'd hate to live with apathy/lack of motivation for the rest of my life. Even for the gym, I have no motivation to go but most of the time/ I force myself to go and even whilst at the gym, whilst others are hacking away seamlessly, I have to force myself every set to keep on going. Sometimes I stay in the gym for 90+ minutes just because I know I have to finish my gym routine but my lack of motivation just makes me take long ass breaks just sitting down and doing nothing. So yeah, my gym workouts are just gotten through by mental toughness. When I was in my teens and early twenties, it was never this way. My lift stats have stayed the same for the last four years (I'm not bothered about that) but I've gained excess weight over the last two years, from 80 to 93kg. 

 

 

Anyways thanks for reading and thank you for your help.
 

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You have normal test levels, if I was your doc I wouldn't prescribe you anything either. If you go on TRT now and decide to come off again you will be worse off. It seems you have a functioning hormonal system. Why not just try and lose that extra weight you have gained and see how you are.

 

You are only 25. low testosterone is not your problem. You can't fix what isn't broken. Eat healthy and live healthy, is your best option. If I were hazard a guess I would say that you are depressed. Focus on the good stuff in life.

 

Good luck!

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How much is the initial appointment at the men's clinic? Are you talking about the one in parnell? Several gym members said I should visit there too.

 

Damn that's expensive... If I could find the right endo, it'd be fully subsidized.

 

Here in NZ I read that they only prescribe 100mg test cyp instead of the 200mg you find in the US.

1mls would last me 5 weeks since I was planning to go 100mg every 3.5 days. 

Maybe it's worth it to go and get the 10ml vial and see if it has any effect on my apathy levels.

Do you know how long and how much of it I must supplement myself with it in order to ramp my natural levels down so I could get a subsidized prescription from an endo? Would the men's clinic forward my prescription to my GP/Endo?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, konigstiger said:

How much is the initial appointment at the men's clinic? Are you talking about the one in parnell? Several gym members said I should visit there too.

 

Damn that's expensive... If I could find the right endo, it'd be fully subsidized.

 

Here in NZ I read that they only prescribe 100mg test cyp instead of the 200mg you find in the US.

1mls would last me 5 weeks since I was planning to go 100mg every 3.5 days. 

Maybe it's worth it to go and get the 10ml vial and see if it has any effect on my apathy levels.

Do you know how long and how much of it I must supplement myself with it in order to ramp my natural levels down so I could get a subsidized prescription from an endo? Would the men's clinic forward my prescription to my GP/Endo?

 

 

 

 

As previously stated you appear to be within normal range, self prescribing exogenous test could negatively impact your future endocrine function unnecessarily...

You seem to be suffering motivational issues, maybe you should be looking at dopaminergic system dysfunction..

 

Get out  exercise, eat healthy, and think positive..

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13 hours ago, Realtalk said:

You could try getting a personal trainer to push your through your workout if you find it hard.

 

I get more out of training smarter/following a plan/pushing myself mentally/having a coach than i get out ofany amount of hormones. Not even exaggerating.  Hormone is final touch once you have everything else in order.  Unless of course you have a medical need (you dont)

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10 minutes ago, bang_bang said:

Sounds more like depression bro

 

Sounds like more inclined towards lack of motivation which would be dopaminergic as opposed to depression which could be serotoninergic... A healthy diet containing precursors L-tyrosine and L-tryptophan might be appropriate... 

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53 minutes ago, GyzzBrah said:

Yeah I had same problem as you OP and I was born with low T. It was depression causing the problems and I just used low T as an excuse for my failings.

 

The OP doesn't have low testosterone...

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1 hour ago, GyzzBrah said:

Yeah I had same problem as you OP and I was born with low T. It was depression causing the problems and I just used low T as an excuse for my failings.

 

gc for admitting that finally.

much easier to deal with once u admit it rather than blame other things

 

back to topic.

 

i would recommend getting a MH evaluation or at very least see a counselor of some kind before blaming hormones. cheaper. less harmful long term. nothing wrong with these kinds of problems happens to heaps of people, awkward to talk about but fuckit just go doctor tell em ur symptoms, get it dealt with.

dont go doctor telling them to give u hormones or whatever, ur not a doctor, they are.

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Guess what?

My diet was completely normal (no strict regimen), just like any non gym going person would eat. I didn't go to the gym in a month nor did any form of exercise. Just lived a sedentary lifestyle. I wanted to see what my testosterone level would look like if I lived my life like the majority of the population. So of course I made sure I got some sleep.
To my surprise, the results came back this morning  with 18.3 nmol/L, nearly double that of what I got before. I forgot to mention that the night before I got my 9.8 reading, I did get 8 hours of sleep but did have 2-3 beers. I know drinking significantly lowers T.

I'm more hopeful that my endocrine systems may be normal.

Thank you DAZ and a troll appears for mentioning about low dopamines. I did not know this. Ill research it further and research into suppliments that might counter this. I know people take zinc to increase T. I'll do that also.

Well, I am not depressed. I never ever feel sad or have self pity or any of the junk that may come with depression. Also,  even if I were to be depressed, I would never take anti depressants so I guess the only solution is to just slug it out.

Mind you my bodyfat is around 24%. Maybe losing weight will increase T and lower estrogen levels. I am supposed to have at least average testosterone if not higher since my digit ratio is low so genetically maybe I have it in me to have higher test levels if I optimize my lifestyle.

Zyzzbrah I have seen your posts on the forums before but I thought you had low t and you tried to get trt without any avail. Now you concluded that it was because you were depressed?

 

But yeah, I'd definitely want to try going on a one month 'cycle' of trt (or even try a cycle of the real juice) to see what it does for the psyche and my life, if my test levels are 1k+. I couldn't give a f*ck about getting big or ripped. I'm around 93Kg now at 5' 10 and my goal weight is 85 at 10% bf and I never was attracted to steroids for size and gym gains or strength gains mostly because I'm content with my muscular size currently(just my fat needs to be deleted off my frame).

 

 

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Real juice and trt are the same thing

 

Steroids wont make you feel better because it is not a deficiency they would be filling

 

Could potentially make you feel worse even just need to beat off more but be just as mopey 

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28 minutes ago, konigstiger said:

Guess what?

My diet was completely normal (no strict regimen), just like any non gym going person would eat. I didn't go to the gym in a month nor did any form of exercise. Just lived a sedentary lifestyle. I wanted to see what my testosterone level would look like if I lived my life like the majority of the population. So of course I made sure I got some sleep.
To my surprise, the results came back this morning  with 18.3 nmol/L, nearly double that of what I got before. I forgot to mention that the night before I got my 9.8 reading, I did get 8 hours of sleep but did have 2-3 beers. I know drinking significantly lowers T.

I'm more hopeful that my endocrine systems may be normal.

Thank you DAZ and a troll appears for mentioning about low dopamines. I did not know this. Ill research it further and research into suppliments that might counter this. I know people take zinc to increase T. I'll do that also.

Well, I am not depressed. I never ever feel sad or have self pity or any of the junk that may come with depression. Also,  even if I were to be depressed, I would never take anti depressants so I guess the only solution is to just slug it out.

Mind you my bodyfat is around 24%. Maybe losing weight will increase T and lower estrogen levels. I am supposed to have at least average testosterone if not higher since my digit ratio is low so genetically maybe I have it in me to have higher test levels if I optimize my lifestyle.

Zyzzbrah I have seen your posts on the forums before but I thought you had low t and you tried to get trt without any avail. Now you concluded that it was because you were depressed?

 

But yeah, I'd definitely want to try going on a one month 'cycle' of trt (or even try a cycle of the real juice) to see what it does for the psyche and my life, if my test levels are 1k+. I couldn't give a f*ck about getting big or ripped. I'm around 93Kg now at 5' 10 and my goal weight is 85 at 10% bf and I never was attracted to steroids for size and gym gains or strength gains mostly because I'm content with my muscular size currently(just my fat needs to be deleted off my frame).

 

 

 

Your test is literally 3 x what mine is. You dont even have average testosterone 18.3 is on the higher end.

 

Around 2 years ago, I felt exactly what you were feeling, sluggish, low energy, just cbf life. I had absolutley no clue what depression was and I didnt have it at their point.

Me and my GP both blamed low T for what I was feeling and for the next year I convinced myself that was my only problem (it wasnt) and I spent the year just getting pissed off at every endo that told me otherwise.

 

Then earlier last year, my disregard for even considering seeing a psych let these issues turn into full blown depression. It all started with what you were feeling.

 

I spent over a year being a sorry wanker when I could have been getting good grades, enjoying my youth, and having a good time.

 

Quite often with mental health issues you never really know you have them and quite often, your potentially shitty destructive lifestyle may not be obvious to you until someone else tells it to you.

This is why a psychaitrast may be good, because they can work with you to figure out what your problems are that you dont realise.

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3 hours ago, konigstiger said:

Guess what?
To my surprise, the results came back this morning  with 18.3 nmol/L, nearly double that of what I got before. I forgot to mention that the night before I got my 9.8 reading, I did get 8 hours of sleep but did have 2-3 beers. I know drinking significantly lowers T.

I'm more hopeful that my endocrine systems may be normal.

Thank you DAZ = Atrollappears for mentioning about low dopamines I did not know this. Ill research it further and research into suppliments that might counter this. I know people take zinc to increase T. I'll do that also.

Well, I am not depressed. I never ever feel sad or have self pity or any of the junk that may come with depression. Also,  even if I were to be depressed, I would never take anti depressants so I guess the only solution is to just slug it out.

Mind you my bodyfat is around 24%. Maybe losing weight will increase T and lower estrogen levels. I am supposed to have at least average testosterone if not higher since my digit ratio is low so genetically maybe I have it in me to have higher test levels if I optimize my lifestyle.

 

But yeah, I'd definitely want to try going on a one month 'cycle' of trt (or even try a cycle of the real juice) to see what it does for the psyche and my life, if my test levels are 1k+. I couldn't give a f*ck about getting big or ripped. I'm around 93Kg now at 5' 10 and my goal weight is 85 at 10% bf and I never was attracted to steroids for size and gym gains or strength gains mostly because I'm content with my muscular size currently(just my fat needs to be deleted off my frame).

 

 

As previously stated your testosterone levels do appear to be normal, therefore you might conclude something else might be responsible for your motivational issues..

 

It has been suggested acetaldehyde (a metabolite of ethanol) might be responsible for inhibiting protein kinase C, a key enzyme in testosterone synthesis, but I'm unsure a few beers would cause much issue..

 

As far as overcoming motivational issues with supplementation, I would personally ensure you ate whole foods containing L-tyrosine, and/or L-tryptophan and vitamin B6, but NOT with supplements...

 

Yes, zinc is reputed to raise T and lower Estrogen..

 

You would be well advised to significantly lower BF%, as the aromatase enzyme that converts testosterone into estrogen is found largely in adipose (fat) tissue...

 

Don't use exogenous testosterone if you don't need it, there is a possibility of negatively impacting your HPTA..

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what daz said

adding exogenous testosterone is going to open up a whole other can of worms for you, its not going to be the quick fix you think it will be.

say you "try it out" for 4 weeks, and its no good, then you are going to feel shit for a while once you stop. worse than you feel now.

or say it helps, you will get other side effects, risk fertility, and basically be signing yourself up for 2x injections a week until you die. it gets boring quick,

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"or say it helps, you will get other side effects, risk fertility, and basically be signing yourself up for 2x injections a week until you die. it gets boring quick,"

 

ditto on that. That's the boat I'm on and it sucks. Not worth it.

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15 minutes ago, I Declare War said:

"or say it helps, you will get other side effects, risk fertility, and basically be signing yourself up for 2x injections a week until you die. it gets boring quick,"

 

ditto on that. That's the boat I'm on and it sucks. Not worth it.

 

That kinda sucks Marty, sorry to hear that.. As our resident biochemist I assume you've tried every option to restart HPTA..??

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I tried a few rounds of clomid when I went natty a couple of years ago. Crashed hard each time. Since then I've just been on nothing, hoping it would fix itself - no luck.

 

Been on HCG monotherapy for the last 4 weeks. 200-500 IU every other day, will probably stay at 200 IU. It's working wonderfully. I will just carry on with this indefinitely. I might also do periods of Sub-Q Testosterone at around 125mg/week and see how that goes.

 

With higher doses of HCG I feel I get a bit of E2 so I'm happier with the lower doses. I have some Arimidex if it becomes a problem but I don't think it will.

 

With Sub-Q Testosterone I am a bit worried about elevated Haematocrit & Haemoglobin, especially since my TRT will be a chronic long-term thing. HCG monotherapy shouldn't be a problem with this. 

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