Benching twice a week on 5/3/1?

[Pseudonym]

My bench sucks. Really sucks. In fact, I think it might be going backwards.

 

I'm currently doing 5/3/1, and I'd like to keep doing that - it seems to be working in most other areas. But I wonder if I need to do something different for bench.

 

So... should I do a 5/3/1 chest session (ie, sets at a high % of 1RM) twice a week? Should I do one 5/3/1 session, and one supplementary session with assistance exercises only? Or should I just stick to the script, and look at some different assistance work?

[BeastBuilder]

Depends what it is holding you back.

In the past I have run the 5/3/1 numbers with Chest and then a Speed Bench session before my Delts workout for the week. Worked relatively well and hard to say if it worked better for me than trying to get stronger at OHP but I was sorta just doing shit and not really paying attention. I progressed either way but couldn't pin point it too the extra bench work or not.

If your technique is solid then there's no reason why that couldn't work, but if your technique is off then you're just digging yourself more of a hole with bad motor patterns.

Vids of any sets bro ? I'm sure between us all here we can help a bit. 

 

Accessory work and just needing to grow more muscle could also be an issue, what are you doing accessory wise atm ?

 

Also obvious question, are you dieting at all atm ? Lil extra food always helps !

 

Might have even just gotten to the point where you need to reset and take your numbers back a bit so you're destroying the rep targets and hitting higher reps rather than barely grinding by or missing targets as I think you have said about previously.

[Bigken1985]

Agree with Beastbuilder. 531 work best when you start off light enough to crush some higher reps to start with, that will transfer to strength as you go. For me i like to bench Tues and then do a Shoulder session on Fri. Also just the 531 sets can be too little volume at times too, so some joker sets, of first set lasts can be of benefit. (as long as you dont go mental)

[Pseudonym]

9 hours ago, BeastBuilder said:

Vids of any sets bro ? I'm sure between us all here we can help a bit. 

*Gulp*

Shit just got real! OK, I haven't got anything, but I'll see what I can do. I'm declaring it now... be prepared for pussy weights. :D

 

9 hours ago, BeastBuilder said:

Accessory work and just needing to grow more muscle could also be an issue, what are you doing accessory wise atm ?

It's a bit of a mized bag, tbh. Depends on my time and energy levels. But for the sake of the argument, here's what it might be:

Bench: 5/3/1

Incline DB press: 3-4 sets x 10-12

Cable crossovers: 3 x 10-12

Dips: 3 sets

Maybe some assorted triceps stuff if I'm feeling good.

 

So quite bodybuilder-style stuff.

 

9 hours ago, BeastBuilder said:

Also obvious question, are you dieting at all atm ? Lil extra food always helps !

I am. And yes, that's prbably not helping. Also lack of sleep.

 

But I'm careful to structure my meals to fuel my workout, so I think that should have a minimal effect. It hasn't stopped my squat and bench from increasing.

 

9 hours ago, BeastBuilder said:

Might have even just gotten to the point where you need to reset and take your numbers back a bit so you're destroying the rep targets and hitting higher reps rather than barely grinding by or missing targets as I think you have said about previously.

Exactly. I've just dropped the weights back down for bench and OHP. And that's partly why I wondered if that gives me room to increase things elsewhere.

 

8 hours ago, Bigken1985 said:

some joker sets, of first set lasts can be of benefit.

Sorry Ken, not sure what you mean here?

[Bigken1985]

15 minutes ago, Pseudonym said:

*Gulp*

Shit just got real! OK, I haven't got anything, but I'll see what I can do. I'm declaring it now... be prepared for pussy weights. :D

 

It's a bit of a mized bag, tbh. Depends on my time and energy levels. But for the sake of the argument, here's what it might be:

Bench: 5/3/1

Incline DB press: 3-4 sets x 10-12

Cable crossovers: 3 x 10-12

Dips: 3 sets

Maybe some assorted triceps stuff if I'm feeling good.

 

So quite bodybuilder-style stuff.

 

I am. And yes, that's prbably not helping. Also lack of sleep.

 

But I'm careful to structure my meals to fuel my workout, so I think that should have a minimal effect. It hasn't stopped my squat and bench from increasing.

 

Exactly. I've just dropped the weights back down for bench and OHP. And that's partly why I wondered if that gives me room to increase things elsewhere.

 

Sorry Ken, not sure what you mean here?

Its in Beyond 531, its when you continue up in weight after the main set, and first set last is when yiou drop the weight back to the first set weight and do more sets

[BeastBuilder]

I think if you put up some vids we'll be able to help with technique, I won't look at the plates I swear lol.

 

I'm all about the bodybuilder style accessory work, you know me ! You could possibly increase your intensity on some of those with drop sets, forced reps etc to help the muscle growth along. Like you said since you've dropped the weights back you can increase the work elsewhere, your accessory stuff would be my first point of call tbh.

 

Now I'm confused do you mean Squat and Dead increasing ? Cos you said in your first post your bench was going backwards ?

I think, just from experience, Bench strength is the most affected by bodyweight, especially as you diet, I'm unsure why but with most people I know, Bench numbers take a hit much sooner and harder than Squat or Deadlift numbers if you're dieting down.

 

I have a feeling your freaking yourself out at having to drop the weights down. Just carry on as you are and I would say you'll be beating your old rep PBs pretty smartly with some technical fine tuning and some extra accessory intensity. And more sleep if possible lol.

[Bigken1985]

Im  actually having  issues myself actually. first cycle back on 531 and my bench is starting to feel like ass again. I do think its great on deads and squat, but bench i just dont think theres enough overall volume for a natty lifter

[Realtalk]

Ok so firstly I think you need to think about "why do we do assistance?". So in your case the main purpose of the assistance exercises should be to increase the primary compound lift. In this case it's the bench press. Assistance work also builds your weaknesses in the lift, increases work capacity and helps to build muscle which is important for getting stronger. In my opinion it is important to choose your assistance exercises wisely and stick at them. Use them as a gauge of progress, as you do with your main lift. I think having some kind of structure to your assistance work can be very helpful if you are plateauing on the primary lift. You want to get stronger on your assistance work with the goal of that strength increase carrying over to your main lift. So I look at your assistance and see cable crossovers, that's a great example to my point because no matter how strong you get on that exercise i can almost guarantee it will give you no increase on your bench press. In other words it's a waste of time as far as getting a stronger bench press goes. Assistance work shouldn't just be prescribed in a cookie cutter fashion either. Two guys benching 100kg... one struggles off the chest to mid range but is strong in lock out, the other is strong from the bottom but struggles to lock out the lift. Should be doing different assistance work. 

 

Different things work for different people. I found a bench press day and an ohp day did wonders for my bench press and left me a lot fresher than 2 bench days did. Lots of people don't rate the ohp for bench carry over though. A lot of it is trial and error.

[Longboa]

5 minutes ago, Realtalk said:

Ok so firstly I think you need to think about "why do we do assistance?". So in your case the main purpose of the assistance exercises should be to increase the primary compound lift. In this case it's the bench press. Assistance work also builds your weaknesses in the lift, increases work capacity and helps to build muscle which is important for getting stronger. In my opinion it is important to choose your assistance exercises wisely and stick at them. Use them as a gauge of progress, as you do with your main lift. I think having some kind of structure to your assistance work can be very helpful if you are plateauing on the primary lift. You want to get stronger on your assistance work with the goal of that strength increase carrying over to your main lift.

Not to hijack thread, but this is something I need to take note of. Though over time Ive gotten stronger in assistance work, its not something I continually track like main lifts.

[M.T]

Do you have to stick to 531? I'd look at other programs and trial and error it if this doesn't do it for ya.

 

Also your body can handle a lot more bench than you think. 3-4 times a week is pretty normal for some PLers, my average tonnage on Sheiko atm is about 16 tonne for a maintenance program. Obviously once you adapt to this load/stress and initial shock to the system.

 

Let us know what works in a few months time.

[Pseudonym]

On 1/12/2015, 2:59:28, Bigken1985 said:

Its in Beyond 531, its when you continue up in weight after the main set, and first set last is when yiou drop the weight back to the first set weight and do more sets

Ah, gotcha. Yeah I haven't read Beyond 531... but actually I've doing quite a bit of "first set last" anyway.

 

@BeastBuilder - sorry, yes, I did mean squats and deads are the exercises still going up. And yeah, I've been starting to add a bit more of the bodybuilder "intensity" stuff lately.

 

@Realtalk - hah! I knew as I typed it I'd be given shit for the crossovers! That was more to satisfy the bodybuilder side of me... (and the crossover machine is right in front of the mirror). You make a good point though. So if I'm weakest getting the bar up off the chest, what accessories would you suggest to remedy that?

 

@M.T - nope, I don't have to stick to 5/3/1. But I quite like it, and I thought I'd try tweaking it, and see if I could make it work before throwing it out and replacing it altogether. (I realise the purists will say that's no longer 531 if I'm doing this, which is also true I guess.) So you reckon adding another bench day might be good?

 

Potentially one option might be:

Deads (+ back accessories)

Delts (+ delt accessories, + chest accessories)

-rest-

Legs (+ leg accessories)

Chest (+ chest accessories, + delt accessories)

-rest-

 

Or is it better to do two full chest days, so add another specific chest day to the front half of the week?

[maccaz]

Imo dumbell bench is the most rewarding accessory for barbell bench. Especially if your weakness is lower down as you can take dumbells very low probably lower than a barbell.

[BeastBuilder]

Weak power off your chest can be a number of things. I'll list a couple possibilities. 

If a muscle weakness it's likely obviously Chest so Maccaz is on the right track. DB Press (Incline, Low Incline, Flat, Low Decline), Heavy DB Flys (Incline, Low Incline), Extended Pause Benches  can all help.

Otherwise another common issue is lack of tightness through the Lats which destroys your power off your chest.That's a technique issue. Try pulling your chest up to the bar as you lower it and tucking your elbows harder.

[Bigken1985]

Personally I am kind of finding my bench feels the best when I bro lift the shit out of it. Higher reps, lots of volume, multiple exercise. I.e decline ,dumbbell, flies etc. I don't think you have to stick to one programme, 531 is known to be shit on bench, so it really is all about finding what works for you, and don't be worried if your not following a structured programme, just be smart about rest food , deloads etc.

[Bruce Al]

Pseudo- What are your stats and what are your goals?

[Pseudonym]

6'0, 88kg, 10-11% BF (or so I'm telling myself...)

 

As for goals... Mainly aesthetic ones, tbh. Although I'm incorporating powerlifting into my training - and liking it - it's still not really my driving motivation. Having said that, I'd like to get my bench up to something that's not quite so embarrassing - maybe 3pps would be a good goal. But mostly, rather than having any absolute numbers that I want to hit, it's just about keeping the numbers going upwards.