Should Masters lifters get a handicap?

[stalkers]

Should Masters lifting in the IPF be given a handicap in terms of a qualifying total for international events?Now theres some trains of thought here-

 

.1.Yes-reason why why would be to encourage participation by older lifters,and also its obvious as people get older they get weaker so having a easier standard to reach is fair.

 

.2.No-reason being theres still some ageing lifters who are absolute beasts,why should anyone get the opportunity to leap frog stronger open lifters to international honours?

 

thoughts?remember theres no right or wrong opinion..its just an opinion.

[nate225]

I always thought there were different qualifying totals for masters & juniors? Or is that different qualifying totals for different events ie masters world's, junior world's, Commonwealths, open world's etc

[stalkers]

its always been the case?ok.i actually am ambivalent/neutral even though its obviously to my advantage.

 

Would it be better to raise the qualifying standard,make it more difficult or set it differently?say you have to be top 6 in your weight class or something?

 

ideas?

[stalkers]

one interesting point id like to make is the current open champ over here is 40+.theres guys continually improving despite being in their 50s+.

 

is 40 old enough to have a seperate category?

 

how ever id like to add is i enjoy seeing the old guys 60+ and beyond get up there.thats pretty darn cool.

[Skeletor]

I think it's unreasonable to give a 40 year old a handicap over say a 25 year old . I know im stronger now than I ever was at 25. Although there are a lot of factors in that like I dont drink or smoke like I used to and I actually do powerlifting now. But when I'm 40 I expect to be even stronger and wouldn't accept winning over somebody half my age just because I'm 40 when they may have a total higher than mine. Thats not winning.

[teamfatboy]

Um... yes, in at least NZPF/IPF there are differing standards for qualifying for National/ Oceania/ Commonwealth/ World comps for juniors AND masters.  http://www.sportsground.co.nz/files/site/278/72/Pdf/140201144156SBIBUXZY.pdf

 

But, that doesn't stop a strong Masters lifter from competing in the open category. I know some lifters in their early M1 years (e.g. 41-42) would nominate open.  IPF rules, however, mean that you only compete in the class you nominate - so by nominating Open, you forfeit the right to a class win in M1.  

 

Similarly, a M1 lifter who lifts more than Open class (hello, Tonka!) would not count for the Open class.

 

However, when it comes to best lifter, this is generally done on Wilks (which in most cases doesn't recognise age) and an M1 can be best lifter.

 

Would the question be treated differently if, instead of Masters, you'd said Junior?  Last year, Brett Gibbs was beating Open-class lifters as a Junior, but he chose to compete as a Junior.

[stalkers]

I think it's unreasonable to give a 40 year old a handicap over say a 25 year old . I know im stronger now than I ever was at 25. Although there are a lot of factors in that like I dont drink or smoke like I used to and I actually do powerlifting now. But when I'm 40 I expect to be even stronger and wouldn't accept winning over somebody half my age just because I'm 40 when they may have a total higher than mine. Thats not winning.

Fair point.Would you consider that m1s and above is a seperate competition that is running concurrently with opens jrs etc and we are only on the platform at the same time because of logistical reasons?

[stalkers]

Um... yes, in at least NZPF/IPF there are differing standards for qualifying for National/ Oceania/ Commonwealth/ World comps for juniors AND masters.  http://www.sportsground.co.nz/files/site/278/72/Pdf/140201144156SBIBUXZY.pdf

 

But, that doesn't stop a strong Masters lifter from competing in the open category. I know some lifters in their early M1 years (e.g. 41-42) would nominate open.  IPF rules, however, mean that you only compete in the class you nominate - so by nominating Open, you forfeit the right to a class win in M1.  

 

Similarly, a M1 lifter who lifts more than Open class (hello, Tonka!) would not count for the Open class.

 

However, when it comes to best lifter, this is generally done on Wilks (which in most cases doesn't recognise age) and an M1 can be best lifter.

 

Would the question be treated differently if, instead of Masters, you'd said Junior?  Last year, Brett Gibbs was beating Open-class lifters as a Junior, but he chose to compete as a Junior.

the last paragraph is interesting.if theres going to be no distinction with aged lifting and the opens,does there need to be a distinction with the younger grades?its a rhetorical question btw and im once again not sure.lol.

[teamfatboy]

Oh, and there's a difference between qualifying, and being competitive.... the qualifying total simply gets you eligible for selection, which is not the same thing as being selected, or being competitive at all.

[stalkers]

if thats the case why is the qualifying total so low?im taking a wild guess here and without verifying and from memory..say if u wanted to qualify for the commonwealth games 100 m in track and field,you would be probably be 1 out of 3 or 4 guys who could actually do it.

The standard set is designed to make sure you are not only eligible but competitive as well.

[stalkers]

im getting a little bit confused here actually.when you say competitive..u mean opens right?

so im assuming that a masters lifter would need to be a competitive open lifter before he should be considered for national representation?

[HarryB]

Yes they should be given a handicap imo

[teamfatboy]

im getting a little bit confused here actually.when you say competitive..u mean opens right?

so im assuming that a masters lifter would need to be a competitive open lifter before he should be considered for national representation?

Not quite... in competitive powerlifting, the age-group competition is just as fierce, and bears no resemblance to the qualifying figure. 

 

To take my own class (M2/U120), the NZPF qualifying total to compete at World Champs is 510kg.  The winning total in Finland this year was 735kg, and the top seven lifters all totalled 635kg or better.  So, a lifter with a qualifying total of 510 would not be remotely competitive.

 

To answer your other point - the Commonwealth Games and Olympics are effectively "open-class" competitions.  In events such as sailing or shooting where age isn't so much a factor, you can be competitive well into Masters ages, but not in e.g. gymnastics. 

 

And why are the qualifying totals so low...not sure - but they are. Another factor is team size - which is limited - and selectors will pick teams to maximise medal prospects. Team size is limited to no more than two per weight class - so you may well lift above the qualifying total, but still not make the team.

[Pseudonym]

Are there formulae to work out your placement taking age into account? Just as Wilks, etc, work out placement based on body weight...

[Realtalk]

Are there formulae to work out your placement taking age into account? Just as Wilks, etc, work out placement based on body weight...

Sort of but I don't think they kick in till like 42 years old.

If someone can remain injury free then there is no reason why they can't be at their strongest at 45 years old. It's only injuries that make people weaker in powerlifting. Fred Hatfield set his WR squat at 45 years old.

Age to a point is irrelevant imo. But I'm 28 I might have a different opinion in 15 years time lol.

[Realtalk]

Masters compete against masters, juniors against juniors. No need to alter qualifying totals as masters don't compete against opens.

If you are a master and you stronger than everyone then you will win the overall anyway.

[stalkers]

Not quite... in competitive powerlifting, the age-group competition is just as fierce, and bears no resemblance to the qualifying figure. 

 

To take my own class (M2/U120), the NZPF qualifying total to compete at World Champs is 510kg.  The winning total in Finland this year was 735kg, and the top seven lifters all totalled 635kg or better.  So, a lifter with a qualifying total of 510 would not be remotely competitive.

 

To answer your other point - the Commonwealth Games and Olympics are effectively "open-class" competitions.  In events such as sailing or shooting where age isn't so much a factor, you can be competitive well into Masters ages, but not in e.g. gymnastics. 

 

And why are the qualifying totals so low...not sure - but they are. Another factor is team size - which is limited - and selectors will pick teams to maximise medal prospects. Team size is limited to no more than two per weight class - so you may well lift above the qualifying total, but still not make the team.

thanks for explaining,im not sure why the required totals are so low that 20 odd people can get them yet the team space is limited.

[stalkers]

Masters compete against masters, juniors against juniors. No need to alter qualifying totals as masters don't compete against opens.

If you are a master and you stronger than everyone then you will win the overall anyway.

what about the open guy left at home when someone totalling 100 kgs less gets picked ahead of him because of age...put yourself in his shoes...i sure can.its ok to say the comps are seperate but theres the human aspect of it..are we putting age ahead of quality?

 

i hope that doesnt come across as dick headed as i respect all the older generation who put their bodies on the line to compete in a sport that literally can hurt you.id like to be mobile at an advancing age,let alone still put up some good weights.

 

Im just trying to see it from both sides,and i can.