(Bro) Science, Opinion, and Arbitrary numbers

[Cameron_R]

I was just reading a site that describes the 'induction phase' of the Atkins diet. It says "No more than 20 grams of carbohydrates per day, mostly from certain vegetables". It made me wonder where 20 gram figure came from, and why it wouldn't vary by person? Seems kinda arbitrary to me.

 

What is your definition of the maximum amount of carbs that should be included in a low carb diet?

 

 

[fng]

From what I've read in my learning capacity is that the base lines for most of these diets arern't for people who workout in the way we do.

I've just started a Kazami plan, which could be considered similar to the atkins principle. Although it is talyored for me, and will get tuned, it looks like Ive got 30g in my pre workout meal, the glycogen spike after, then about 60g in my post workout meal.

The rest seems to be oil based ( mct ) have had pretty good daily energy so far.

It could all be about macro's and fats verses carbs

Like yourself I am interested to here what the others here think, always wanting to learn more

[AZIDE]

depends what your definition of low carb is. seems stupid not to include carbs pre and post workout though

[HalfNatty]

Ive been doing Ketogenic diets for about a year now and tried a bunch of different formats.

Going low carb and working out can be hard once glycogen levels deplete. The energy release from fats is not suited to lifting weights in my opinion, its very good enduro energy though.

I settled on a combo of intermittent fasting and Keto with 50gms carbs a day.

The IF part was not eating before lunch time (can have some fat in a black coffee for breakfast butter or mct oil) feeding window is from 1pm till 7pm

Really strict on carbs till after workout and then 50 grams of really junky carbs. high GI stuff, it produces a nice insulin spike and then allows other hormones related to growth and repair to trigger as the insulin falls away. at night and after a heavy resistance workout there are 2 unrelated biomechanics that help create a bias as to where the glycogen from the carbs will go. there is a natural insulin resistance cycle in the body most people are quite sensitive in the morning and a lot less so in the evening. this means that the most common conduit for nutrients into cells both muscle and fat cells is quite diminished in the evenings. Hopwever this brings us to the second biomechanic - for a short while after a heavy resistance workout muscle cells send Glut-4 transporters to the cell walls to pull in glycogen creating a definite biase towards replenishing muscle cells and not storeing it as fat or in your liver.

 

the Atkins version of 20g of fibre carbs a day is a bit extreme in my vierw but it will get you into Keto pretty fast

 

 

[Cameron_R]

I settled on a combo of intermittent fasting and Keto with 50gms carbs a day.

......

 

the Atkins version of 20g of fibre carbs a day is a bit extreme in my vierw but it will get you into Keto pretty fast

So this is getting to the crux of my question .... Why did you choose 50 grams? Seems arbitrary to me. Why not 70? Why not 30?

And why do you think 20 grams is extreme? 50 grams is only 30 grams more?

Not having a go. Just explaining that this my whole point ... (Bro) Science, Opinion, and Arbitrary numbers

 

[HalfNatty]

It is subjective - the plan i was looking at suggested 30grams im bigger than most people and wasnt getting the best out of my workouts so i tweaked it up.

For the attunment phase you really do want this to be over as fast as possible and thats why hes probably suggesting 20grams and probably mostly fiber carbs from veges. attunment is ot much fun some people can have headaches and feel really sluggish and foggy for about 10 days. the less carbs you have the faster you will deplete liver stores fo glycogen and breaks out into the clarity of an attuned keto state.

For myself after pretty much dumping sugar as apart of my diet and limiting carbs i know my liver glycogen stores will be low so attunment doesnt take too long at all so i can afford to be a bit higher on my daily if taken strategicly. but if you are a sweettoothed lolly muncher who never excersizes you mught have considerable stores of glycogen to deplete before your body reconfigures to a ketogenic state it could take up to a month and i suspect this is why he's going on the hardcore side of lowcarb - 2 glasses of milk will put you over that

Go for broke in the attunment phase mate the shorter the induction the better it feels like shit for some people. you know when you are attuned when you start thinking clearer and faster and you piss smells fruity (its the acetone)

hers a link with some awesome Keto information ( theres some good recipe resources in there too for keto meal ideas wich is a must because you get sick of eating chicken and broccoli quite quickly.

 

http://josepharcita.blogspot.co.nz/

 

[fng]

So really it's a cleaver ploy to make everyone think the minds are in a glycolysis state and they need to change to this way of eating

interesting read, way too many big words, Doh!

[Cameron_R]

It is subjective

...

hardcore side of lowcarb - 2 glasses of milk will put you over that

Exactly. The average wrap that most cardio bunnies love to eat instead of bread has about 30g of carbs in one piece!

I just think that trying to label a diet as low carb is cool as long as people realise that "low" has no real meaning because it's a relative term.

For me, a low carb day would be anything less than 100g, or anything less than 20% of the calories I ate.

[Flamer]

I read something years ago that the brain needs a minimum of 130 g CHO a day for optimum function.  But, I see your point.  Do babies and old people also need 130g.  Do a 48kg female and 140g male also only need this magical 130g CHO for their optimal brain function?

[AZIDE]

I read something years ago that the brain needs a minimum of 130 g CHO a day for optimum function.  But, I see your point.  Do babies and old people also need 130g.  Do a 48kg female and 140g male also only need this magical 130g CHO for their optimal brain function?

lol 140g male. what is it, a rodent or some shit?

[Rebel101]

The whole point of a ketogenic diet is to get the body into a state of burning fat as the energy source.

When fats are converted to glycogen to be utilised as a source of energy the bi product is ketones.

Ketones are excreted in urine and can be measured by using Keto stix available from chemists

The limit on the amount of carbohydrate that will put you into a ketogenic state will depend on a number of factors including your body mass and composition and energy expenditure.

Last year I had to be on less than 30g to be in a ketogentic state, this year with increased muscle size and metabolic rate I go into ketosis at about 90g carbohydrates.

To figure out what is right for you as an individual you would need to get into a ketogenic state and once in a steady nutritional environment increase carbs until you find you move out of ketosis. Then you will have identified what limited your carbs need to be at to be in a ketogenic state.

[fng]

thanks rebel, nice simple explanation

[Pseudonym]

Last year I had to be on less than 30g to be in a ketogentic state, this year with increased muscle size and metabolic rate I go into ketosis at about 90g carbohydrates.

I tried doing a keto diet with Aylmer a few years back. I was under 30g carbs, pissing on ketostix daily, but buggered if I could produce any ketones.

[maccaz]

Last year I had to be on less than 30g to be in a ketogentic state, this year with increased muscle size and metabolic rate I go into ketosis at about 90g carbohydrates.

I tried doing a keto diet with Aylmer a few years back. I was under 30g carbs, pissing on ketostix daily, but buggered if I could produce any ketones.

me too

only way i ever got ketostix to show ketones was eating meat and eggs only, no green veg or anything for about a week, just to see whta would happen

 

[Rebel101]

Its not an exact science each individual is different but essentially you have to completely deplete the body of all glycogen stores in order to force the body into burning fat.

Glycogen is the preferred source of energy for the body and fat will only become the source of energy once all glycogen stores are depleted including liver and muscle. Depletion can take me up to five days once I have trained every bodypart.

The depletion can take time depending on:

• pre existing metabolic rate
• level of physical excertion
• muscle mass

Once glycogen stores are depleted the body must use fat as an energy source, all be it inefficient. Once fat is being utilised ketones are produced from the breakdown of fat, it is unavoidable.

Measurement of ketones through excertion via the urine is also afffected by urinary throughput. If you are drinking lots of water then the volume of water excreted will dilute the ketone level. Hence ketones will be at their highest level in the early morning urine when you have not been drinking liquid overnight.

I have found that once in ketosis the highest levels of ketones I produce is after a quad workout followed by cardio, the next morning the ketones will usually be at their highest for the week.