4 x 10 or 10 x 4?

[crazyfacials]

What protocol do you use when you train? I saw a message from T nation about an article about it, but sometimes some of the stuff they publish are a real head scratcher, I think it was along the lines of how you can benefit more of doing 10 sets of 4 reps over 4 sets of 10 reps,a lot of people would say that lesser reps are greater are building strength over muscle size but I think they were trying to argue that it's super in both areas....anyhow, what does everyone think about it?

 

 

[Wolffenbuttel]

The body is adaptable bro, say you've trained 4x10 since you started lifting at some point you'll hit diminishing returns and growth will stop/stall when this happens changing it up (10 x4) will elicit a renewed period of gains.

in terms of what is strictly better I would have to vouch for consistency it doesn't matter what you do if you're consistent with it you'll see some kinda result.

[Realtalk]

10 sets of 4 reps if it's heavy will leave you wrecked and prob injure yourself. Too many sets for most people, weights will drop off too much and hard to track progress. 5x5 for example is manageable, easy to keep track of progress. 5x5 is a good equilibrium of weight/rep/sets that you're able to be consistent with while maintaining it the whole way.

im not saying 5x5 is the best way but if you are doing 10 sets of 4 to maintain the same weight it will be too easy to begin with and if it isn't then your form will suffer at the end. I'd hate to see the 10th set of a 4RM lol there are better ways.

[Daz69]

Effects of different volume-equated resistance training loading strategies on muscular adaptations in well-trained men.

Schoenfeld BJ¹, Ratamess NA, Peterson MD, Contreras B, Tiryaki-Sonmez G, Alvar BA.

Author information

Abstract

Regimented resistance training has been shown to promote marked increases in skeletal muscle mass. Although muscle hypertrophy can be attained through a wide range of resistance training programs, the principle of specificity, which states that adaptations are specific to the nature of the applied stimulus, dictates that some programs will promote greater hypertrophy than others. Research is lacking, however, as to the best combination of variables required to maximize hypertophic gains. The purpose of this study was to investigate muscular adaptations to a volume-equated bodybuilding-type training program versus a powerlifting-type routine in well-trained subjects. 17 young men were randomly assigned to either an HT group that performed 3 sets of 10RM with 90 seconds rest or an ST group that performed 7 sets of 3RM with 3 minutes rest. After 8 weeks, no significant differences were noted in muscle thickness of the biceps brachii. Significant strength differences were found in favor of ST for the 1RM bench press and a trend was found for greater increases in the 1RM squat. In conclusion, this study showed both bodybuilding- and powerlifting-type training promote similar increases in muscular size, but powerlifting-type training is superior for enhancing maximal strength.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24714538/?ncbi_mmode=std

[ohjoshua]

This one says overall volume is the most important factor in Testostorne and Cortisol stimulation. 

The salivary testosterone and cortisol response to three loading schemes.

Crewther B1, Cronin J, Keogh J, Cook C.

Author information

 

Abstract

This aim of this study was to examine the free hormone (in saliva) responses to squat workouts performed by recreationally weight-trained males, using either a power (8 sets of 6 reps, 75% 1 repetition maximum [1RM], 3-minute rest periods, ballistic movements), hypertrophy (10 sets of 10 reps, 45% 1RM, 2-minute rest periods, controlled movements), or maximal strength scheme (6 sets of 4 reps, 88% 1RM, 4-minute rest periods, explosive intent). To determine the relative importance of the different training variables, these schemes were equated by workout duration with the power and strength schemes also equated by load volume. Salivary testosterone (T) and cortisol © both increased following the hypertrophy scheme (P < 0.05), with little to no hormonal change across the power and maximal strength schemes (P > 0.05). In general, the postexercise T and C responses to the hypertrophy scheme exceeded the other two schemes (P < 0.05). The greater volume of load lifted in the hypertrophy protocol over the same workout duration may explain the endocrine differences observed. The similar T and C responses to the power and maximal strength schemes (of equal volume) support such a view and suggest that differences in load intensity, rest periods, and technique are secondary to volume. Because the acute hormonal responses to resistance exercise contribute to protein metabolism, then load volume may be the most important workout variable activating the endocrine system and stimulating muscle growth.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18296983

 

[Riccardo]

Awesome study there daz, ohjoshua's one is good as well although using post workout cortisol and testosterone as your marker is contentious. Acute fluctuations in test and cortisol are unlikely to have much of an effect on hypertrophy, it's proposed that they occur to mobilize fuel stores which is why their serum concentrations are correlated with workout volume. Eric Helms has a good video on YouTube on this topic but essentially low reps can be just as good at building mass although build more of the contractile elements in the muscle where as higher reps build the metabolic components. Utilizing both rep schemes is the way to go and overall volume is the most important factor in hypertrophy. The main down side to using lower reps with heavier weights is that CNS fatigue becomes an issue and it's easier to overtrain.

[ohjoshua]

Awesome study there daz, ohjoshua's one is good as well although using post workout cortisol and testosterone as your marker is contentious. Acute fluctuations in test and cortisol are unlikely to have much of an effect on hypertrophy, it's proposed that they occur to mobilize fuel stores which is why their serum concentrations are correlated with workout volume. Eric Helms has a good video on YouTube on this topic but essentially low reps can be just as good at building mass although build more of the contractile elements in the muscle where as higher reps build the metabolic components. Utilizing both rep schemes is the way to go and overall volume is the most important factor in hypertrophy. The main down side to using lower reps with heavier weights is that CNS fatigue becomes an issue and it's easier to overtrain.

interesting.

Do you know how we can read more than the abstarct in these studies? would be interesting to see how much Testostorne and how must Cortisol are increased. 

Wild guess that after a certain point Testostorne stops increasing then decreases and Cortisol keeps increasing as volume continues to increase.

[B_Eden]

I've done 5x5, 3x5, 3x8, 5/3/1, 3x10, 4x10, max OT & negaties, DUP, RPT, pyramids through RPE, and I can say with extreme confidence that I have no idea w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ which is "better" and they have all benefited me to some degree. As long as progression is occuring, it's all good, and I'd say progression won't occur for long if you just do one thing for the rest of your life. 

Yes, I understand this doesn't answer your question, just some advice from a noob

[Riccardo]

 

 

Awesome study there daz, ohjoshua's one is good as well although using post workout cortisol and testosterone as your marker is contentious. Acute fluctuations in test and cortisol are unlikely to have much of an effect on hypertrophy, it's proposed that they occur to mobilize fuel stores which is why their serum concentrations are correlated with workout volume. Eric Helms has a good video on YouTube on this topic but essentially low reps can be just as good at building mass although build more of the contractile elements in the muscle where as higher reps build the metabolic components. Utilizing both rep schemes is the way to go and overall volume is the most important factor in hypertrophy. The main down side to using lower reps with heavier weights is that CNS fatigue becomes an issue and it's easier to overtrain.

interesting.

Do you know how we can read more than the abstarct in these studies? would be interesting to see how much Testostorne and how must Cortisol are increased. 

Wild guess that after a certain point Testostorne stops increasing then decreases and Cortisol keeps increasing as volume continues to increase.

Yeah, you need an academic license or have to pay for them. google the title of the paper along with PDF and you can sometimes bypass the filters and get a free copy. otherwise you'll have to borrow a uni login and go through the university's server.

[Kalidane]

I've done 5x5, 3x5, 3x8, 5/3/1, 3x10, 4x10, max OT & negaties, DUP, RPT, pyramids through RPE, and I can say with extreme confidence that I have no idea w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ which is "better" and they have all benefited me to some degree. As long as progression is occuring, it's all good, and I'd say progression won't occur for long if you just do one thing for the rest of your life. 

Yes, I understand this doesn't answer your question, just some advice from a noob

 

To a large degree, this sums things up pretty well.

 

As Riccardo has highlighted previously, it's the area under the curve that matters.  If Protocol X causes a 50% increase in protein synthesis in the 2 hours following training, but there is no difference in total protein synthesis over a 48 hour period, then it's interesting but irrelevant.

 

Acute hormone changes are very likely in this category.  See any good study testing the 'anabolic window' hypothesis.

 

I, for one, welcome acutely elevated cortisol - more rapidly removing the busted up stuff so the repair crews can go in make it better than it was.  Dat recovery time.  *Hugs cortisol*

 

Cortisol is a fun topic of its own so just think about this: resistence training causes an acute elevation in cortisol levels.  Is the body doing this because it hates us or because it is serving a positive purpose?  This is a good question to ask regarding almost everything that occurs in the body.