Cheat meals

[rapz]

Heck no! Well i wont - its something new to me thats all.

[Rebel101]

Okay Rapz well here goes lets start from the begining and this is going to take some time. I need to know that you understand and agree as we work through this. Hopefully I will convey the right concepts and we will not get too many questions distracting us.

Lets set the stage, we need a clear understanding of the whole picture or else this will turn to custard.

We will consider a bodybuilder John Doe, John is driven, trains hard,is enhanced, and is trained by a PT, and has a plan he is sticking to. Firstly all body builders do not apply the same intensity to their dream of competing, Now if John was dieting on 3200 calories he would lose weight at say 1 kg a week, but (holding all other things as equal ie same training gear rest etc) if John was to diet at 2400 calories he would lose weight faster but would find the diet harder to stick to and is more likely to hit the wall.

Here we have two differing style of dieting! correct? you I have your understanding and agreement on this.

For the purpose of this concept I am going to work with John dieting on the lower calorie level. I will wait to here from you Rapz that we have a clear understanding.

[rapz]

Okay Rapz well here goes lets start from the begining and this is going to take some time. I need to know that you understand and agree as we work through this. Hopefully I will convey the right concepts and we will not get too many questions distracting us.

Lets set the stage, we need a clear understanding of the whole picture or else this will turn to custard.

We will consider a bodybuilder John Doe, John is driven, trains hard,is enhanced, and is trained by a PT, and has a plan he is sticking to. Firstly all body builders do not apply the same intensity to their dream of competing, Now if John was dieting on 3200 calories he would lose weight at say 1 kg a week, but (holding all other things as equal ie same training gear rest etc) if John was to diet at 2400 calories he would lose weight faster but would find the diet harder to stick to and is more likely to hit the wall.

Here we have two differing style of dieting! correct? you I have your understanding and agreement on this.

For the purpose of this concept I am going to work with John dieting on the lower calorie level. I will wait to here from you Rapz that we have a clear understanding.

yep righto carry on.... so john is dieting on 2400 cals

[Rebel101]

Yes John is dieting on 2400 calories and applies a high degree of intensity to everything he does to get to the competition in the best shape he can. He has be dieting for say 6 weeks and everything has been going realy well and to the plan he has with his trainer. His ketosis levels are steady at 2+ except on leg days when it moves upward towards 3+.

But now we are at the end of the 6th week and he has had a hard weeks training and it he is only just recovering from each workout. He has had a tough day at work and had words with a client that he should not have and now a friend at the gym has just made a smart remark about how tired he looks and that is the last straw he losses his cool. The thought that runs through his head is, is this all worth it !

He knows that McDs is just down the road and finally just gives up the the nagging pain in his head that reflects the constant hunger pains he has had for the last four weeks and the frustration at life in general. He has a huge meal and feels totally satisfied and at this point in time the relief from the hunger and the extra energy gives him physical relief.

Metabolically the food taken in fills his liver and muscle with the glucose and glycogen, fluid is absorbed to balance the muscles need for fluid balance and to balance the sodium intake (normally he eats little salt).

Now the body has an alternative and preferable source of fuel and drops out of ketosis immediately.

Lets stop here and see that you have followed and agreed with me to this point in time and if you have any questions that I should answer now.

[DIANABOL]

Can i ask the macro ratio of Johns diet? 

[rapz]

no questions yet - except compared to myself my diet is not low in sodium - infact i add seasonin gs or a bit of mustard to most meals - but im with ya

[Rebel101]

Okay next step:

Firstly at this point in time of the diet program no ones diet should low in sodium but it is constant (relatively speaking) from one day to the next, so a one off large McD feast is going to add in an extra load of sodium above and beyond a normal days diet.

Please remeber that my response hinged around the words being able to "SEE" it and my words were "Only after 10 days will you now start to feel like you are moving ahead again (this is really only a mind set thing as you are moving ahead all the time) its just that until this 10 days are over you will not be able to see it." The critical word meant you had to be able to see it, as in on the scales.

Also my comments are also largely based around your input and remember the words you used to describe where you were at were "but for me there is a fine line between compromising friendships and relationships with loved ones vs a bodybuilding competition" and when I say get back to where you were at it is this level of depth of physcological depravation that I was referring to you getting back to.

Below are two scenarios (hopefully I have managed to upload correctly) showing the hypothetical progress over two weeks of the two scenarios. Please bear in mind that at the the first point in our discussion two weeks ago the only means you had to evaluate your progress was on the scales and our whole conversation up until now has essentially been based on that.

Lets call the day of the evening McD feast Day 0 and Johns weight in the morning of day 0 is 95.5 and his body fat is 12.5%.

 

 

 

Now we can see in this hypothetical scenario that at any where between day 7 and 10 you have not (based on the scales) moved ahead in other words you cannot technically "see" that you have moved ahead. However the Body Fat levels have changed and you have moved ahead. Also at this particular point in time I do not think you were at the level of wondering if it was all worth it.

Lets take time now to stop and review and discuss any issues arising, running hypothetical situations is all very well but it is never an exact description of the events so please allow some leaway.

Seems like my formating is not as good as it should be perhaps Pseudonym can help to tidy it up.

[Pseudonym]

I've tweaked the formatting slightly for you, Rebel, but I think this might be as good as it gets!

 

So those numbers (body fat calculated to 2 decimal places!) are purely speculative, right? You're just using that to illustrate your point?

[Dinahlady]

Rebel 

I do like the message you are putting across (the fact that you are moving forward in your diet despite a cheat meal - whether that is unplanned or planned) and I really like the examples you posted. I think people are just abit miffed that you seem to think there is some magical 10 days or set timeframe that applies to everyone which seems very short sighted scientifically as there are clearly many factors (cardio, calories, macros, genetics) effecting it, and its also definitely not what would not match with peoples experiences. 

When I was dieting for my comp I used the Ken skip hill skiploading method where I did refeeds every weekend. I would eat unrestricted amounts of carbs and some fats for almost the whole day on sunday which would be 4000+ calories of food (or more - I didnt have to count). I would then go back to my weekly diet which was say circa 1800 calories and every week I would dip under my scale weight (the scale weight from the saturday morning BEFORE my massive feast) on about friday by about 200-500g. This continued for me - with my feasts getting longer and larger and my calories slowly reducing all the way through 12-16 weeks of dieting. 

I dont understand why you are saying it has to be 10 days surely it depends on your deit in the week and particular individuals response? Or are you just using 10 days as an EXAMPLE. Or were you using rapz information in there somewhere too? 

Skip commonly advocates using the day you dip below your scale weight as a marker as where your calories should be. If you go under your scale weight after a load too soon (say on a wednesday) you know your cals during the week are too low, your cardio is too high or your refeed wasn't long/big enough... So you can adjust this accordingly. Similarly if you lose too much weight per week by the friday (say 1.5kgs) then you can adjust those factors also.

 

Skip has trained 100s of clients to national and pro level and he ALWAYs finds people respond like this to his methods? And by ALWYAS RESPOND I mean that the response is variable with the changing of factors and specific to the individual. I'm not saying that its an amzing method at all  - I'm just saying that it doesnt fit in with what you are saying and as an example of why people are confused about what you are saying. because their experiences are different to what you seem to be saying is a fixed thing. 

 

I just find it hard to believe that you think one mcd's feast (nothing compared to a whole 12 hours of constant eating!) would make you go over your previous scale weight for 10 days. That has never been my experience, nor anyone who I have come across. 

[Dinahlady]

Here is an example from my data when dieting. (Hence the dates).

So this is sunday having unrestricted carbs and fats. not just one meal. a whole day of jellybeans, pop tarts, chocolate etc. 

If you see, for me It takes me 2 days to gain the majority of the weight from my sunday feeds, due to filling up with water continuing to happen on the monday being visible on the tuesday then quickly coming back down for weds/thurs/fri drops. 

Solid 400g drop per week, like clockwork. 

No 10 days for me? 

I also have a few clients with similar trends can also dig them out. 

Weighing was done every am after wees and I was doing 3 x 30 minute cardios per week, 3 weight trining sessions per week (push pull legs) and eating circa 1800-2000 cals (probably on the higher end of things if you like to count the calories from vegetables - as I never did) on weekdays (plus the 3-4k refeeds on sundays). 

 

[Rebel101]

I've tweaked the formatting slightly for you, Rebel, but I think this might be as good as it gets!

 

So those numbers (body fat calculated to 2 decimal places!) are purely speculative, right? You're just using that to illustrate your point?

Hi Pseudonym yes they are speculative

[Rebel101]

Hi Dinahlady hmm I have a lot to respond to.

To your first post:-

The whole scenario of ten days is dependant on the intensity of the diet applied in the first instance. As I described their is a difference in response between an "intense diet eg John on 2400 cal" and an "average diet eg John on a 3200 diet", Response varies with intensity. Hence John on an intense diet serverly carbo depleted will load on his McD feast differently than John on an average diet, the responses are more extreme.

Also of course there are alot of variables but for the purpose of keeping the discussion simple and on point I have had to make the case with "all other variables remaining equal and constant" such as level of training, enhancements, cardio, diet etc.

To your second post:-

Your scenario based on weekly refeeds is an entirely different scenario and has a different rollout pattern and cannot be compared to the scenario I have laid down.

My response was always to Rapz having dieted strenously for six weeks with no refeed pattern and it being a single one off meal not followed by any refeeds.

[Clueless]

Here is an example from my data when dieting. (Hence the dates).

So this is sunday having unrestricted carbs and fats. not just one meal. a whole day of jellybeans, pop tarts, chocolate etc. 

If you see, for me It takes me 2 days to gain the majority of the weight from my sunday feeds, due to filling up with water continuing to happen on the monday being visible on the tuesday then quickly coming back down for weds/thurs/fri drops. 

Solid 400g drop per week, like clockwork. 

No 10 days for me? 

I also have a few clients with similar trends can also dig them out. 

Weighing was done every am after wees and I was doing 3 x 30 minute cardios per week, 3 weight trining sessions per week (push pull legs) and eating circa 1800-2000 cals (probably on the higher end of things if you like to count the calories from vegetables - as I never did) on weekdays (plus the 3-4k refeeds on sundays). 

 

Just curious - Did you keep a chart of calories consumed to match with data there? Did you run same calories or drop slowly weekly as weight decreased?

[rapz]

Okay next step:

Firstly at this point in time of the diet program no ones diet should low in sodium but it is constant (relatively speaking) from one day to the next, so a one off large McD feast is going to add in an extra load of sodium above and beyond a normal days diet.

Please remeber that my response hinged around the words being able to "SEE" it and my words were "Only after 10 days will you now start to feel like you are moving ahead again (this is really only a mind set thing as you are moving ahead all the time) its just that until this 10 days are over you will not be able to see it." The critical word meant you had to be able to see it, as in on the scales.

Also my comments are also largely based around your input and remember the words you used to describe where you were at were "but for me there is a fine line between compromising friendships and relationships with loved ones vs a bodybuilding competition" and when I say get back to where you were at it is this level of depth of physcological depravation that I was referring to you getting back to.

Below are two scenarios (hopefully I have managed to upload correctly) showing the hypothetical progress over two weeks of the two scenarios. Please bear in mind that at the the first point in our discussion two weeks ago the only means you had to evaluate your progress was on the scales and our whole conversation up until now has essentially been based on that.

Lets call the day of the evening McD feast Day 0 and Johns weight in the morning of day 0 is 95.5 and his body fat is 12.5%.

 

 

 

Now we can see in this hypothetical scenario that at any where between day 7 and 10 you have not (based on the scales) moved ahead in other words you cannot technically "see" that you have moved ahead. However the Body Fat levels have changed and you have moved ahead. Also at this particular point in time I do not think you were at the level of wondering if it was all worth it.

Lets take time now to stop and review and discuss any issues arising, running hypothetical situations is all very well but it is never an exact description of the events so please allow some leaway.

Seems like my formating is not as good as it should be perhaps Pseudonym can help to tidy it up.

hi rebel

 

sorry took a while to respond...

so i took a look at your scenario it it made sense (sorta) again its just the whoole 10 days thing confuses me - more of a rough ball park figure.

anyway cam in my lightest to date over the weekend - so in theory your right - i was moviing forward - but thats after 2 cheat meals lol and more carbs on top of that.

[Rebel101]

 

Okay next step:

Firstly at this point in time of the diet program no ones diet should low in sodium but it is constant (relatively speaking) from one day to the next, so a one off large McD feast is going to add in an extra load of sodium above and beyond a normal days diet.

Please remeber that my response hinged around the words being able to "SEE" it and my words were "Only after 10 days will you now start to feel like you are moving ahead again (this is really only a mind set thing as you are moving ahead all the time) its just that until this 10 days are over you will not be able to see it." The critical word meant you had to be able to see it, as in on the scales.

Also my comments are also largely based around your input and remember the words you used to describe where you were at were "but for me there is a fine line between compromising friendships and relationships with loved ones vs a bodybuilding competition" and when I say get back to where you were at it is this level of depth of physcological depravation that I was referring to you getting back to.

Below are two scenarios (hopefully I have managed to upload correctly) showing the hypothetical progress over two weeks of the two scenarios. Please bear in mind that at the the first point in our discussion two weeks ago the only means you had to evaluate your progress was on the scales and our whole conversation up until now has essentially been based on that.

Lets call the day of the evening McD feast Day 0 and Johns weight in the morning of day 0 is 95.5 and his body fat is 12.5%.

 

 

 

Now we can see in this hypothetical scenario that at any where between day 7 and 10 you have not (based on the scales) moved ahead in other words you cannot technically "see" that you have moved ahead. However the Body Fat levels have changed and you have moved ahead. Also at this particular point in time I do not think you were at the level of wondering if it was all worth it.

Lets take time now to stop and review and discuss any issues arising, running hypothetical situations is all very well but it is never an exact description of the events so please allow some leaway.

Seems like my formating is not as good as it should be perhaps Pseudonym can help to tidy it up.

hi rebel

 

sorry took a while to respond...

so i took a look at your scenario it it made sense (sorta) again its just the whoole 10 days thing confuses me - more of a rough ball park figure.

anyway cam in my lightest to date over the weekend - so in theory your right - i was moviing forward - but thats after 2 cheat meals lol and more carbs on top of that.

Yes there are many more variables to the whole picture and finding the right way for yourself is as important as the actual path that you follow.

[DIANABOL]

Okay next step:

Firstly at this point in time of the diet program no ones diet should low in sodium but it is constant (relatively speaking) from one day to the next, so a one off large McD feast is going to add in an extra load of sodium above and beyond a normal days diet.

Please remeber that my response hinged around the words being able to "SEE" it and my words were "Only after 10 days will you now start to feel like you are moving ahead again (this is really only a mind set thing as you are moving ahead all the time) its just that until this 10 days are over you will not be able to see it." The critical word meant you had to be able to see it, as in on the scales.

Also my comments are also largely based around your input and remember the words you used to describe where you were at were "but for me there is a fine line between compromising friendships and relationships with loved ones vs a bodybuilding competition" and when I say get back to where you were at it is this level of depth of physcological depravation that I was referring to you getting back to.

Below are two scenarios (hopefully I have managed to upload correctly) showing the hypothetical progress over two weeks of the two scenarios. Please bear in mind that at the the first point in our discussion two weeks ago the only means you had to evaluate your progress was on the scales and our whole conversation up until now has essentially been based on that.

Lets call the day of the evening McD feast Day 0 and Johns weight in the morning of day 0 is 95.5 and his body fat is 12.5%.

 

 

 

Now we can see in this hypothetical scenario that at any where between day 7 and 10 you have not (based on the scales) moved ahead in other words you cannot technically "see" that you have moved ahead. However the Body Fat levels have changed and you have moved ahead. Also at this particular point in time I do not think you were at the level of wondering if it was all worth it.

Lets take time now to stop and review and discuss any issues arising, running hypothetical situations is all very well but it is never an exact description of the events so please allow some leaway.

Seems like my formating is not as good as it should be perhaps Pseudonym can help to tidy it up.

 

I want to remind you that your original post in response to Rapz' confession that he had had a cheat meal stated that he has literally set himself back 10 days. Your hypothetical situation above demonstrates that the cheat meal is actually beneficial because Cheat Meal John Doe has lost bodyfat faster than No Cheat Meal John Doe at the end of the 10 day period. I believe we can therefore conclude that Rapz having the cheat meal was not a setback at all. 

 

Rebel101 wrote:

Only after 10 days will you now start to feel like you are moving ahead again (this is really only a mind set thing 

as you are moving ahead all the time) its just that until this 10 days are over you will not be able to see it.

I think most people would have understood 'see it' to mean see the physical changes, as in see it in the mirror and my response to this post demonstrates this understanding. 

Dianabol wrote:

When I have a cheat meal during dieting phases or prep it usually occurs twice a week and certainly does not take me 10 days before I start to notice/see changes again. I see changes instantly by appearing fuller and more vascular - and the day after I look much leaner. The full look usually lasts for a couple days before I deplete my glycogen stores again and start to look flat. By monitoring waist size and skinfolds I prove that these meals do not set me back and in fact I am getting leaner. 

If you meant see it on the scales you should have said that because it would have avoided alot of confusion. 

 

Maybe you could look at incorporating cheat meals for your next contest prep to help you come in leaner and harder ;-)

[Rebel101]

I used to do that 20 years ago and have moved on since then, and my trainer would not allow that either.

Psycologically I am learning more and am learning to move past constrictions on my thinking. This year I am concentraing on staying within 10% body fat of my competitive weight so I do not have to lost so much to be competitive.

[Dinahlady]

Here is an example from my data when dieting. (Hence the dates).

So this is sunday having unrestricted carbs and fats. not just one meal. a whole day of jellybeans, pop tarts, chocolate etc. 

If you see, for me It takes me 2 days to gain the majority of the weight from my sunday feeds, due to filling up with water continuing to happen on the monday being visible on the tuesday then quickly coming back down for weds/thurs/fri drops. 

Solid 400g drop per week, like clockwork. 

No 10 days for me? 

I also have a few clients with similar trends can also dig them out. 

Weighing was done every am after wees and I was doing 3 x 30 minute cardios per week, 3 weight trining sessions per week (push pull legs) and eating circa 1800-2000 cals (probably on the higher end of things if you like to count the calories from vegetables - as I never did) on weekdays (plus the 3-4k refeeds on sundays). 

 

Just curious - Did you keep a chart of calories consumed to match with data there? Did you run same calories or drop slowly weekly as weight decreased?

In those three weeks (let's call them weeks 1-3) the calories and cardio were kept the same. (You can see me adapting to the program).  I dropped carbs by 25c on rest days (eod) after one more week (beginning 5th week) as I stalled on the next week (4th week)  and I then started losing again.